low drag bullet design from Victory Moulds

[wmitty]

Does anyone have any information they'd care to share on the low drag cast designs from Victory ? Would anyone care to voice their opinion on the practicality of these designs?

[Buckshot]

Does anyone have any information they'd care to share on the low drag cast designs from Victory ? Would anyone care to voice their opinion on the practicality of these designs?

..............They're certainly a nicely streamlined design. I've never seen one other then on the Victory Mold (Mold grows on bread, mould is what you cast boolits with 8) ) site. However I have had experience with limited lube capacity boolit designs, in addition to 2 articles done by Paul Matthews on the same subject.

Unless something has changed, there is some point where X amount of lube IS required. Less then that leads to failure. Dave Scoville had also done a lube comparison between boolit designs. A comparison on lube capacities vs velocity, accuracy and other issues. What I have read and what I have personally experienced colors my thoughts against the Victory LD designs.

While the LD designs shown on the site have ample guiding surface, I will stick my neck out here and say that to me it appears as if they are designed to fail in lube carrying and supply issues. Lube is not merely lube, but varies in capability to do it's job. Lube technology has progressed beyond the merely organic ie: beeswax and lard, to engineered formulas to synthetics.

While a Loverin design was obviously invented to carry maximum lube as at that time adding more was the only way to make it better. These days and for some time the higher tech lubes have proved to be too much of a good thing.

http://www.fototime.com/3870C943F75D6DF/standard.jpg
As with these Lyman 311407's have shown, this much lube is just fine, and possibly even less.

http://www.fototime.com/29A646FD8B4A5E4/standard.jpg
Three examples of lube supply and carrying ability.

I suppose the fact of just exactly what lube does do for the bullet, and HOW it does it may be subject to argument for some time. Too much is a negative, where at the very least it makes a mess of the firearm and can theoreticly lead to flyers (lube purging). On the other hand too little lube is bad as it leads to barrel leading and inaccuracy.

Just from looking at the Victory designs, and using what I have experienced I do not see how they would be a viable design. At least at any velocity at all.

My experience has been with 2 boolits produced as Lee custom moulds and designed with an eye toward maximum weight in a set length and limited lube capacity. Both were accomplished via decidedly shallow lube grooves. This provided the slug with a very thick and rigid core for max weight. The bottoms of the lube grooves were a few thousandths of an inch smaller in OD then the rifle's nominal bore.

One was the C311-200 RF and the other was an enlarged C316-220 RF. They bear a resemblance to these below:

http://www.fototime.com/E5D1D95CA0D988C/standard.jpg
The design silhuettes are very much alike, but this design has decidedly deeper lube grooves.

A test was done in a 30-40 Krag with the C311-200RF slug to 2200 fps, but the design failed long before that velocity was reached. These had been cast of WW type alloy of about 12 bhn and the lube was Javalina (NRA 50/50 formula). It was felt that a harder boolit might survive so some were cast up at 20 bhn. These also showed failure at about the same velocity.

The boolits had been sized to .310". The lube grooves were right at .300" OD or almost bore diameter.

The test was re-run and this time used a modern hi-temp hard wax type lube. Boolits of both alloys were again used. Both still failed, although those lubed with the hi temp lube did make it to the desired 2200 FPS mark without bore leadng but accuracy was out the window. The barrel was washed a dry dull gray. I suspect possible lead flashing.

I very much regret I did not ever make an effort to recovered any fired boolits. It would bave been extremely interesting and educational.

In Paul Matthews' articles he had tried shallow lube grooves back in the early 70's with some success. He DID recover fired slugs and what he found was that accuracy failed and leading occured as soon as the lands bottomed in the lube grooves. As charges increased the base or rear of the slug would upset further causing the issue. Up until that happened shooting and accuracy was normal.

The Lee Tumble Lube design might be considered similar to the Victory, at least in lube groove depth. Yet except for their pistol bullet designs I'm only aware of one rifle boolit utilizing the TL feature and that's the CTL312-160-2R , I don't have any experience with it, but do with it's brother, the C312-155-2R. A conventional lube groove design, which I've taken to 2300 fps with very good accuracy.

Since the Victory site has no dimensions published with the photo's, I have to go by appearances and it appears as if the lube grooves are very shallow. I do not think I'd be willing to spend $165 for a single cavity mould to experiemnt with. I too would be very interested in hearing from someone who has shot the LD design.

..................Buckshot

[grumble]

"(Mold grows on bread, mould is what you cast boolits with )"

Seems that Lyman calls them "moulds," Lee calls them "molds." I'm not sure where RCBS comes down on this important controversy. <GGG>


From American Heritage:
"mould1 (m½ld) n. --mould v. Chiefly British. Variant of mold1.
mould2 (m½ld) n. --mould v. Chiefly British. Variant of mold2.
mould3 (m½ld) n. Chiefly British. Variant of mold3."

[drinks]

Mold; a form or matrix that gives a particular shape to anything in a fluid or plastic condition.
Mold; any of a variety of fungus growths on food.
Mold; soft, loose earth that is especially suited for plant growth.
Mould; see , mold.
Funk and Wagnell's Standard Desk Dictionary.

[powderburnerr]

I believe that victory design was designed by Dan theodore for long range BPCR with his own variety of dip lube .And Victory uses mold because a different company had the mould spelling in theur website......Dean

[carpetman]

Buckshot giving spelling lessons????????? I have read umpteen kazillion posts by him since 1998 and almost all contain the word consistent or some form or the other and everytime he uses an A(consistant)---there aint no A in consistent.

[wmitty]

Buckshot, I agree with you; Victory's moulds are a bit pricy to allow obtaining one simply to experiment with. Looked to me as if their L.D. designs were all plain base, too, which would seem to indicate low velocity use. I looked at Lee's 312-160-2R and noticed it is a gas check design. I had never noticed this before: I had simply dismissed it as an undesirable design because of it's spire point. Does this bullet have adequate lube capacity with it's tumble lube grooves to allow a velocity of say 1800 fps? Anyone shooting this design care to comment?

[drinks]

I have good results with the C312-160-2R.
Using it in .303 Savage, 7.5x55SR and 7.62x54R, I have exceeded 2300fps with accuracy of less than 1" at 50 yds in the .303 and 7.5, The 7.62 has a very large groove diameter and nothing does very well in it.
The very similar C312-155-2R is also gas check [that is what the "C" prefix indicates], and it has a conventional lube groove.
I have yet to try the 160 in my .308, just too much fun messing with the .35 Whelen and .45-70, but I do intend to try it, along with the C309-200-R.

[wmitty]

Drinks. were you using liquid alox when you were achieving 2300 fps? Were you shooting the bullet as cast or sizing to a particular diameter?

[Buckshot]

I believe that victory design was designed by Dan theodore for long range BPCR with his own variety of dip lube .And Victory uses mold because a different company had the mould spelling in theur website......Dean

Dean, does the dern thing shoot? That is the question of the hour 8) I seem to recall hearing that many BP shooters were loping 4" off their 34" bbls because of lube issues. Possibly this design isn't aimed at the BPCR crowd? Or there has been some advent in lube technology that hasn't filtered down yet?

Grumble, ""(Mold grows on bread, mould is what you cast boolits with )"

"Seems that Lyman calls them "moulds," Lee calls them "molds." I'm not sure where RCBS comes down on this important controversy. <GGG>"

Ha, I just dislike being ambiguous. I take "mold" as a verb to describe the action one takes to form something. Mould as a noun descriptive of the object (the blocks).

Ray, " Buckshot giving spelling lessons????????? "

I suppose you can say at least I'm consistent? That should be a comfort, eh?

.....................Buckshot

[drinks]

I used L A and LBT soft blue, both did fine.
The '99 , .303 is .300-.308", the 7.5 is .299-.307.
I size the bullets for the .303 and 7.5 to .309".
I used 35.5gr IMR 4064 in the .303 for actual 2280fps.
I used 34gr Rel7 for 2360fps in the 7.5.
I do not believe a chrono to 1 ft ps, I usually shoot 3, average them and round off to nearest 10 fps.
Don

[drinks]

However;
"Mold grows on bread". You are using mold as a noun again, not as a verb, as mold is an object, the product of the fungal growth.

[carpetman]

drinks----you are talking noun verbs etc. All I remember about that stuff is "to lay" is the object of a proposistion.

[drinks]

And "laid" is the result of a succesful proposition.
;D

[powderburnerr]

Buckshot:

Dan Theodore has been selling "white lightning for about a year now and he has two formulations one for the standard grooved designs and a "dip " fot the low drag designs he has been working with , Him and his crowd are now using 38 78s or some such animal with 10 or 12 twists to meet the power factor for long range. 1000 yd they have had good luck , he has three styles designed as far as I know all three are smooth sided . . anyway if you feel the need to try his lube it is availablre from him with a min of 2# for 50 dollars or sagebrush sells the stuff for about 20 bucks a pound ............... Dean

[wills]

Definitions of mold on the Web:

a fungus; molds are plants that make spores instead of seeds which float in the air like pollen. They are a common trigger for allergies. Molds are found in damp areas, such as the basement or bathroom, as well as in the outdoor environment in grass, leaf piles, hay, and mulch.
www.healthychildrenproject.org/glossary/

a cavity left in firm sediment by the decayed body of an organism.
www.china.org.cn/english/features/Archaeology/98851.htm

A cavity in which a substance is shaped as in a plaster mold for casting.
www.monstermakers.com/glossary.html

A fungus-type microorganism whose growth on food is usually visible and colorful. Molds may grow on many foods, including acid foods like jams and jellies and canned fruits. Recommended heat processing and sealing practices prevent their growth on these foods.
doityourself.com/canning/canningglossary.htm

1. The wooden form used in cigar making to give shape to a finished bunch. It has two parts, which, when assembled, are placed in a press. 2. A potentially damaging fungus that forms on a cigar when it is stored at too high a temperature.
www.thefinerlife.com/smokers_conner/cigar_terms.htm

A series of machined steel plates containing cavities into which plastic resin is injected to form a part.
www.husky.ca/glossary/_glossary.html

(V) To shape plastic parts or finished articles by heat and pressure. (N) The cavity into which the plastic composition is placed and from which it takes its form.
www.bascousa.com/tools/glossary.aspx

Any of various fungous growths formed on the surface of organic matter. Mold is not a human pathogen.
www.hooked-on-nails.com/NailTerms.html

Fungal growths often resulting in deterioration of organic materials, especially under damp conditions.
www.foam-tech.com/glossary.htm

A furry growth on the surface of objects such as food products and other living plants. Grows in the presence of dampness or decay.
herbarium.usu.edu/fungi/FunFacts/ClubGlossary.htm

Normally consists of a top and bottom form, made of sand, metal or any other investment material. It contains the cavity into which molten metal is poured to produce a casting of definite shape.
www.swscc.com/making/making_terms.htm

A hollow reinforced cavity that is the mirror-image or reverse-image of the boat and into which fiberglass, gel coat and resin are laid during composite-hull construction.
www.boats.com/glossary/M.jsp

A downy fungal growth on a substratum, usually consisting of mycelium of a Hyphomycete or a Zygomycete. (15)
ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/glossary/Defs_M.htm

The basic instrument of paper-making. Consisting of a frame of wood or other material covered with a cloth, polyester, or metal screen and wire, the mold is dipped into a vat containing a pulp and water mixture. It is then raised from the liquid. As water drains through the mold, a layer of fibers collects on the surface which, when dried, becomes paper.
www.nga.gov/gemini/glossary4.htm

A woolly growth, produced by fungus.
www.howtocleananything.com/hca_glossay.htm

is a superficial, often wooly substance that grows on damp or decaying organic matter or on living organisms. Molds produce tiny spores to reproduce. These mold spores waft through the indoor and outdoor air continually.
enviromysteries.thinkport.org/breakingthemold/resources/glossary.shtml

A form used to make a canoe. A female mold is said to produce a male canoe; a male mold to produce a female structure.
www.paddling.net/guidelines/showArticle.html

A spore that has been added to cheese to promote growth of mold internally or on the surface. Some molds are edible, others, are not. Cheeses also naturally develop molds.
www.artisanalcheese.com/artisanal/education/glossary.cfm

A form of fungus. Some molds can cause disease in humans.
www.stjude.org/glossary

an apparatus piece from which prop pieces can be made by adding resin or the appropriate material
www.movieprop.com/prop.htm

a hollow container that creates a shape when liquid is poured in and allowed to set
www.msnucleus.org/membership/html/k-6/rc/dictionary/rcdict.html

The cavity or matrix into or on which the resin/fiber material is placed and from which it takes form. Mold Release (External)
www.acmanet.org/pic/products/glossary.htm

A fossil that is an empty space in a rock that shows the outward shape of a dissolved organism.
www.mdk12.org/instruction/curriculum/science/glossary.shtml

a frame on, in, or around which something is constructed or shaped.
library.thinkquest.org/6275/Glossary.html

a common name for fungi that grow in a filamentous fashion and reproduce by means of spores; all molds are fungi, but not all fungi are considered 'molds'
lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/allergybegone/glossary.html

cast: the distinctive form in which a thing is made; "pottery of this cast was found throughout the region"
model: form in clay, wax, etc; "model a head with clay"
become moldy; spoil due to humidity; "The furniture molded in the old house"
container into which liquid is poured to create a given shape when it hardens
cast: form by pouring (e.g., wax or hot metal) into a cast or mold; "cast a bronze sculpture"
loose soil rich in organic matter
mildew: the process of becoming mildewed
shape: make something, usually for a specific function; "She molded the rice balls carefully"; "Form cylinders from the dough"; "shape a figure"; "Work the metal into a sword"
a fungus that produces a superficial growth on various kinds of damp or decaying organic matter
fit tightly, follow the contours of; "The dress molds her beautiful figure"
sculpture produced by molding
determine: shape or influence; give direction to; "experience often determines ability"; "mold public opinion"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Molds (British English: moulds) are various fungi that cover surfaces as fluffy mycelium and usually produce masses of asexual, sometimes sexual spores. The molds are not an actual taxonomic or phylogenetic grouping – they can be found in the divisions Zygomycota, Deuteromycota or Ascomycota.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold

[Ed Barrett]

With all this dictionary stuff I'll be getting to smart for my wife to put up with me, please slow down. <g>