Tinsel fairy visit...and I don't know why

[MKT]

I was working on smekting down a few WWs this afternoon, working from my Lyman mini-mag furnace. All of the WWs I have are dry, been stored dry and not washed. We are having rain right now so I was working in the relative comfort of the garage.

I had just poured ingots, leaving the pot about half empty and decided to reload. As I was placing a couple WW on top of the melt, one slipped under and immediately "popped". No damage to me, no burns no nothing. A couple good globs landed around the pot, with a large glob landing a few feet from the pot.

I know there wasn't any water on these weight. Could a grease glob have caused this? I am definitely looking closer at the WWs as I put them in the melt from here on out.

[longbow]

If the wheelweights were cold I would suspect condensation forming on it was the culprit. Cold wheelweigh, warm humid air could make condensation. Best to warm the wheelweights first if they are outside cold coming into a warm area.

I tend to be a little sloppy when I melt down range scrap and wheelweights and have had grease and oil going into the pot maybe causing a bit of turbulence but never a pop.

Just my experience.

Longbow

[HeavyMetal]

Yep! If that ingot was cold and dropped right in without a warm up it formed condesation instantly when it contacted the hot alloy in you pot!

I learned this lesson several years ago when I brought some very cold bars in from my outside stash and added it to a melt I had going in the garage.

The melt acted like I turned on the garbage disposal in the bottom of the lead pot and then burped big time straight up about 10 inch's high! It was pretty nosiey as well!

Nothing splashed out but it was a real impressive wake up call!

Now ingots get set on or near the pot while it warms up and fresh ingots set near the pot to bring them up to room temp before they are dropped in.

[Johnch]

If the clips have crud or rust in them
Either can hold enough water to make life interesting

John

[docone31]

I make ingots using a silver ingot mold. It is 6" X 1/2 X 1/4". They are long and can be placed into the pot on one end and it slips into the melt.
I live in a warm climate with A/C which really dries out the casting room.
There is no void with these ingots, the mold is preheated. They take one Lyman Ladle full of melt. A nice convient way to ingot up.
Even though these ingots are dry, solid, consistant, when I put one into the hot melt, there is always boiling with the surface of the melt showing action. It goes away quickly, and as the ingot slides into the melt, the boiling sound goes away.
My thoughts on this, is like some of the responses on this thread. As the metal is rapidly heated, there is heat distribution. This produces condensation as I have witnessed. The ingots are very shiney, they are 75% roofing lead, 25% wheel weight/tin/ maybe some zinc. They work out well for me.
I believe, as the metal is heated, the portion not being heated draws water condensation. I literally take them from the box I keep them in and put the end into the melt.
With the wheel weight pop you experienced, right at the clip there is a gap. It comes from being installed, and removed. Stuff gets in there. Rather than water, it might have been grease, antifreeze, etc.
For my smelting, I put a layer of Kitty Litter on top of the melt. I lay my material on the Kitty Litter. It melts through the Litter, the clips stay on top. The Kitty Litter floats, so do the clips.
I find it easier to pick the clips out of the melt that way. I do not do much in high volume so it works and the Tinsel Fairy sleeps well. So Far.....

[MKT]

Thanks for the possible causes folks. Temps here were hovering about 40 degrees, inside the garage with the door open it was probably, oh 40 degrees. That, coupled with the elevated humidity from the active rainstorm could very well be the cause of condensation.

I will say that the single, small pop was an attention getter. It sounded like a .22 short going off. It definitely moved some melt too.

[odoh]

I too had a similar visit. The bubbling got my attn fast. I had some long tongs and would slowly dunk/feed the remaining ingots (50) into the melt. I got off easy this time. Now to keep the missus away from making distractions ~

[billyb]

Condensation. Try a little experment, take a wheel weight and hold it with a pair of plyers on one end and take a propane torch and heat the other and watch the condensation form. Make sure that you preheat your dipper or any thing you stick in molten metal. Even when the temp is 100* it will draw water, condensation. It is a good idea to preheat your ingot molds also. Bill

[Willbird]

The condensation from the propane torch might be from the water in the propane ?? More than 1 person has tole me there is quite a bit of water in propane and lp.

Bill

[OLPDon]

Cold anything droped into hot lead will bring to life the tinsel fairy ask anyone that has work in a Can Company back when they had the old type seamed cans or what we use to call the 3 piece can. Many a new employee learn rather quickly to heat the spoon before plunging it into the Solder Bath (Melt). I have heard some foul language out of new guy's Christian mouth usualy the Oh F--- was the answer to the Tinsil Fairy.
I sure wish I was into casting back then.
Don

[44man]

I make the mistake all the time. I use the Metal Mans flux to melt in antimony and use the same spoon for my lead pot. If I don't wash the flux off the spoon, it sucks moisture from the air and makes for fun if I dip it in the pot. :mrgreen:

[Freightman]

Had an interesting blowup as I was doing some range scrap, had a loaded 22 shell in the mix, sure glad that I had on glasses as it coated them but I had no burns. My apron was covered also, I have been more cautious in looking at the scrap. No harm done so I guess I was fortunate.

[MT Gianni]

The condensation from the propane torch might be from the water in the propane ?? More than 1 person has tole me there is quite a bit of water in propane and lp.

Bill

Water is a natural out put of combustion. [C3H8 + O allows a mixing of H & 2O or H2O]. Especially if a flame impinges on a surface you will get sooting and moisture. If the flame is under the ww the air movement should carry the moisture away.

[Willbird]

I suppose it does make sense that the air where the heat is has a lower relative humidity than the air surrounding the cool end of the object, so the cool end would condense some moisture that was being driven from the warm end.

Bill

[AZ-Stew]

MT Gianni has it right. When you burn hydrocarbon fuel (propane, gasoline, wood, etc.) one of the byproducts of the combustion is water, the other is carbon dioxide and/or carbon monoxide. This is why you see water running out of the exhaust pipes of cars that have only been driven a short distance in cold weather. When the engine burns gasoline, the water portion of the combustion byproducts condenses on the inside of the exhaust system and eventually runs out the pipe as liquid water. When the water that's in the "exhaust" of your propane torch runs into the cold WW, it will condense on the cold surface. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with heating the WW. Think about it. If you set the same cold WW on an electric hot plate, would it develop a layer of condensation? No. The condensation in the propane flame comes from combustion (combining the oxygen in the air with the hydrocarbons in the propane), in other words, from a chemical reaction, not from the physical heating of the WW. Throwing a cold WW into a hot pot DOES NOT cause condensation to form on the WW. The WW may shatter from the sudden change in temperature, but condensation from the sudden change of temperature caused by dropping the WW into a pot of melt is not the culprit here.

One thing that wasn't mentioned is how long the WWs were stored before being tossed into the pot. If they were stored for many months in a dry garage, off the floor and away from any sources of moisture, then water in the nooks and crannies of the WW isn't the likely source of the steam pop. On the other hand, if the garage has been cold for a long time and the inside air suddenly became more humid due to opening the door during a rain storm, some condensation could form, but the temperature of the WW would have to be at or below the dew point temperature with respect to that air. At 40 degrees F for the ambient air temperature, the WW would have to have been a lot colder. Since most garages aren't that well insulated and normally have a lot of air leaks, I suspect the air inside the garage was very close to the same temperature and humidity as the air outside the garage. This pretty much precludes condensation as the source.

I didn't see the storage conditions, so I can't give you a good answer as to the cause. Any number of things could have gotten into the pot to cause your small explosion. As others have said, the best policy is to make sure any moisture has been driven off with heat and dry storage conditions before adding WW to the pot. If SWMBO will allow it, find a place inside the house where you can allow your WW to sit and dry for a number of months before smelting.

I'm lucky. I live in an area where the humidity is low and the temperature in my shop where I do my casting stays between 65 and 85 degrees. I can drop a room-temperature ingot into my casting pot at any time without any problems. The ingots are too warm and the air is too dry for condensation to occur. Remember, you'll get condensation on the outside of your iced tea glass during the hot, humid days of summer, but you've never seen condensation any time of the year on the outside of your hot coffee cup. Condensation is caused by warm humid air coming into contact with a cold solid surface.

Regards,

Stew

[zampilot]

Yesterday I was reclaiming alloy from my two soup cans full of 'impurities' skimmend previously, I put a large chunk into the pot, went out to see what the dog was barking at and heard what sounded like a .22 short go off. Realizing what it must have been I returned to the garage to find 6 or 7 greyish pea sized chunks of slag on the table surrounding the melter. Looked like a Fizzle Tinsel Fairy as none of it travelled more than 6 inches from the pot. Sure was loud though! BTW I recovered about 5lbs of alloy from about 12 lbs 'skim'.

[MKT]

Prior to dry storage in my garage, the WW were stored dry in the Riverside County maintenance garage. Most of the time we have low humidity and warm dry weather, but the last few nights have been pretty cold for CA (below freezing last night) and the past three days have been heavy rain. I was a good 10 feet from the partially open garage door so I don't think any stray rain drops made it to the pot.

I'll just chalk this one up to a learning experience, no harm no foul. I will definitely use a little more caution next time I'm working with the mini-furnace.