cast boolit questions

[RetiredRod]

Hello, first time poster here. Have a question about poor performance on a batch of recently purchased cast boolits. Posted my question on the 1911Forum, and was referred to this forum.

I recently purchased 3K of the below bullet at a local gun show, from a local "hobbyist" caster. I had previously used his bullets in 41 mag and they were fine, so I thought these would be OK too. I was wrong. I'm having accuracy problems with them. Poor groups at even 10 yards from a sandbag rest - about 5" and at 25 yards, only 2 or 3 out of 5 are even on a paper plate target (8" dia.).

I'm an experienced shooter & reloader. Shoot 99% cast bullets. In 45acp mostly H&G #68 style. Std. load is 4.5gr Titegroup, which will give me 2" 5-shot groups from a rest, in my 5" custom 1911.

I've shot these bullets with 4.6, 4.8 & 5.0gr Titegroup. The 5.0gr did show slightly better " grouping" than the lower charges. I have weighed a few of these bullets and they all weighed 198-199 grains. Also measured a few, getting .452" for most, with some at .4515. Haven't slugged my barrel, but for years it has shot all brands, and all weights (155's to 255's) of .45 cast bullets (#68 style) very accurately.

Also bought some .38/.357 "identical" bullets from the same caster, which shoot with outstanding accuracy for me.

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions for better performance from this boolit? Any help will be greatly appreciated. :)

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg70/RetiredRod/NewMarshfieldbullets.jpg

[Echo]

May be too hard an alloy to allow obturation - and one looks as though it has a booboo on the heel.

[454PB]

Hi Rod, and welcome to the forum!

That is a Lee tumble lube design. It appears from the picture that there is some lube on the nose, but not much on the bands. Did these lead the barrel, and do they show any signs of "tipping" or striking the target crooked?

I would try adding some lube. The easiest way is to get some Lee liquid Alox and recoating, but for experimental purposes you could rub some conventional lube or Johnson paste wax on them. Obviously you don't cast, so you probably don't have any boolit lube either. Maybe a fellow shooter does?

[Blammer]

yea, see if your brl is leaded. looks like you need more lube on them.

[RetiredRod]

Thanks, everyone, for offering your comments. Much appreciated. Should have said that I am not a caster, although I've shot "tons" of lead in the last 20 years.

Yes, some of the bullets "keyholed"; probably about 10% of all shots.

And, yes, there was a noticeable amount of barrel leading. It looks pretty evenly distributed from chamber end to muzzle.

If these bullets are lubed properly would they be "messy" to handle? These bullets are not messy at all and leave no residue on my fingers from handling them.

If you think additional lube is needed, I would certainly like to try lubing them. I can order some Lee Liquid Alox. Is there a better place to get the Lee Alox than Midway?

Thanks again & good shooting.....Rod.

[454PB]

Properly applied and allowed to dry throughly, the Lee Liquid Alox is not messy.

You can buy the same product under a different name from Lar45. His link is at the bottom of this page: http://www.lsstuff.com/index.html

[Bloodman14]

Check out Lee Precision's web site! Good stuff!

Lead Forever!

[leftiye]

Get some lee liquid Mule Snot, and give them another coating. I guess you know to "Get the Lead out" before shooting more of these.

[LUBEDUDE]

May be too hard an alloy to allow obturation - and one looks as though it has a booboo on the heel.

Obturation only (mostly) applies to hollow base bullets and pure lead, as in cap and ball. not the newfangled modern type.:)

Dave

[LUBEDUDE]

The lack of accuracy is definitely caused by the lack of lube. Because now the rifling is "eating "away at the bullet giving it a smaller than desired diameter when it leaves the barrel. Thus, it never has that stable spin like a perfect sprial football pass. Instead it comes out wooblely because it is not a tight fit now and it looks like one of those sucky passes- thus poor accuracy.

Like others have said, get the lead out and lube those bullets.

Good Luck

Dave

[Bret4207]

First things first- What size are the boolits and what size is your barrel. Fit is King in cast. If those boolits are even .001 smaller than the barrel wants you'll get just exactly what you're talking about. I'd put a lot more money on size and alloy than lube. Did you get any decent accuracy out of them? A boolit lacking enough or the right lube will often give you 5 or 10 shots worth of good grouping before things go sour. An undersized or undersized and too hard boolit will almost never group well.

Obturation can and will occur with modern design boolits depending on your alloy/design/ load combination. It's less likely to be an issue with a low pressure 45ACP than with a 357 Mag for instance, but it can still be an issue and can be good or bad depending on what's happening. All obturation is is the pressure of the gases causing the boolit to fill the throat/barrel area. It can be good or bad depending on what you need.

4/0 steel wool will take the lead out ASAP. You can try relubing, but if the boolit is undersize to start with you may have a problem getting usable accuracy. If you have any cast boolits that gun shoots well I'd mic them and then these new ones and see if there is a difference. Keep in mind some designs just need to be "fatter" to shoot well, so that test isn't definitive.

[cajun shooter]

I'll again agree with Bret, Lubedude you are not correct in your answer as I shoot 45Colt in Cas and if you don't have some obturation you will suffer with bad accuracy and blowback. The bullet shown does appear to be without lube and it's base is not flat. This alone will cause a problem by letting the hot gases by and into the lead bullet itself. And the leading will begin. Any bullets with this look should be canned. I'm not a fan of TL bullets but I know alot of people that shoot them. If you are having good and bad bullets, this caster could also have a alloy problem. By that I mean that he might not make his bullets the same each time and uses what he has available. Don't know the person so I'm not going to beat them up but if you slug your bbl or at least mike the bullets and see what you have. I've had 2 custom Lee molds in the last year that dropped undersized bullets. We have a sticky on how to make your mold drop larger bullets. My not being sastified with what was on the market to shoot is what put me to casting in 1971. Maybe it's your time.

[OLPDon]

Retired Rod:
First welcome to the board I do agree with what was stated above I do believe you are not getting obturation (boolit compression) making for a better seal in barrel could be caused by to hard of a aloy or undersized and or both. What you can do and is the easiest for you seeing as how you are not a caster (yet) is relube. It might work. You did mention that it is a local caster from which you purchased and have been happy with what he has produced for you in the past. I would give him a call and explain that it doesn't perform for your 1911. If he is as most casters I'm sure he will replace with something else to your guns liking. I would be willing to bet he would like to correct the problem rather then loose a customer.
Keep the faith and keep us posted.
Don

[HeavyMetal]

My thoughts are you have two problems;

A bit more lube should help as there is not enough on these to work right.

Second I have no doubt that your "caster" is using the same "alloy" for everything!

The fact that 357 and 41 mag loads don't have the issue bears this out. If you got a card call and ask him how hard the 45 boolits are ( if you want to know exactly how good this guy is ask him what the brinnel hardness, BHN, is) for 45 auto loads something between 9 and 11 BHN will be fine.

also welcome aboard! Check out some thread with a search and you'll find other reference's to BHN hardness and leading.

[RetiredRod]

Again, thanks to all for the welcomes, and for the willingness to help a "non caster". I am very familiar with BHN's, obturation and "getting the lead out". :)

My barrel has not been slugged, but it is quality barrel in a custom built, Bullseye quality 1911. I have fired about 50K of LSWC's through it, most of them sized at .452". I have never had a batch of lead bullets group this poorly. Of course, I've never shot this bullet (in this caliber) before either. As I said in my first post, the bullets in question are mostly .452 with a few at .4515".

I'm not sure my photographic skills are doing the bullets justice. There is a distinct visual line the length of the bullet, but I cannot "feel" it with my fingertip. The base of the bullet is clean with a sprue (proper term?) mark in the center, again can be seen but not felt.

I don't have a hardness tester, so I just did a little "shadetree" hardness test. I tried cutting the nose of the Lee bullet and the nose of my usual #68 bullet (that shoots well). The Lee bullet was definitely much harder. So, it may be an obturation issue. This is somewhat consistent with the groups getting smaller as the load gets hotter. I'm still only at the top end of mild with 5.0 grains of Titegroup. My plan now is to load some with Power Pistol to up the pressure safely.

And, I intend to call the caster (I have his phone #) to see if he has any ideas/suggestions.

I will certainly keep this thread updated. And continue to appreciate any further advice or comments from this esteemed group. :)

[Bret4207]

It's very possible you have a combination of a slightly small boolit and a "hard" alloy. It's apparent your gun wants something different. A slightly larger or softer boolit or a different design in the same alloy might well fix it. I'm betting it's as simple as that and has nothing to do with lube at all. At this point I'd contact the caster and see if you can trade them for something else.

FYI- In my experience just because one boolit design shoots good at a given diameter doesn't necessarily mean another boolit will shoot good at that diameter. I haven't had an issue with tumble lube type boolits, but then I tend to size on the large side- +.002 over bore and I don't shoot max loads. Some guns may love them, some may hate them or be indifferent. You have to feed the gun what it wants.

[copdills]

welcome to the forum:drinks:

[jonk]

I wouldn't be so sure about the lube issue. I've tumble lubed rifle bullets that were only a little more thickly covered than those and didn't have issues in a 28" barrel. For a 1911 barrel you don't need much lube. Though that said, as the easiest fix that's what I'd try first as well.