Flintlock mythbusters

[waksupi]

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/ultra-high-speed-flintlock-movie.php

This page has some real eye openers, as far as vent position, priming position, and various other things we think we "know". Follow through the various parts of the page, and you will find interviews with some of the best builders in the country.

[357maximum]

Finally had time to watch these all the way through............wow...eye opening.....and pretty dern cool:drinks:


thanks

[RayinNH]

That's a great web site Ric. It has been duly bookmarked...Ray

[Old Ironsights]

Myth: Caplocks ignite faster than a properly tuned Flintlock.

I've seen flinters go off as fast as a cartridge gun.

And a properly tuned flintlock will also fire UPSIDE-DOWN.

They are amazing machines.

[Maven]

You may also wish to read Larry Pletcher's "Pan/Vent Experiments" in the March 2009 "Muzzle Blasts" (NMLRA publication). Larry's research questions the conventional wisdom about vent position relative to the pan as well as powder placement in the pan.

[waksupi]

You may also wish to read Larry Pletcher's "Pan/Vent Experiments" in the March 2009 "Muzzle Blasts" (NMLRA publication). Larry's research questions the conventional wisdom about vent position relative to the pan as well as powder placement in the pan.

Maven, I don't get Muzzle Blasts. Could you give me a synopsis?

[Maven]

Glad to Ric! Larry questioned the effect of vent location* (even with the pan v. slightly above the pan v. slightly below the pan) on ignition speed/time. In short, after many trials, he found that it had little effect and that the conventional wisdom was misleading if not mistaken. The other test had to do with powder location in the pan: away from the vent v. level priming v. next to the vent, as the conventional wisdom teaches. (He even varied the vent location when testing this.) Once again, he found fastest ignition with the powder next to the vent, regardless of whether it was lower, level with, or higher than the pan. The powder banked away from the pan (all 3 locations) gave the slowest ignition times.

When I got my Dixie TN Mtn. rifle, I read and reread Sam Fadala's BP Handbook, particularly the part about flintocks. He was pretty emphatic about using a small priming charge backed away from the vent. I followed his advice and got many flashes in the pan. With a full, but level pan things improved. After reading Pletcher's article, I'm going to bank the powder next to the vent and continue to clear the vent with a brass wire to see if I can ignite the main charge 100% of the time.



*Larry had a lockplate fixture that enabled him to vary the pan : vent height.

[waksupi]

Doh! The video of this experiment is on a link of the originally posted page.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/pan-vent-experiments.php

Follow the other links on the page for more interesting stuff.

Thanks Maven

[44man]

Glad to Ric! Larry questioned the effect of vent location* (even with the pan v. slightly above the pan v. slightly below the pan) on ignition speed/time. In short, after many trials, he found that it had little effect and that the conventional wisdom was misleading if not mistaken. The other test had to do with powder location in the pan: away from the vent v. level priming v. next to the vent, as the conventional wisdom teaches. (He even varied the vent location when testing this.) Once again, he found fastest ignition with the powder next to the vent, regardless of whether it was lower, level with, or higher than the pan. The powder banked away from the pan (all 3 locations) gave the slowest ignition times.

When I got my Dixie TN Mtn. rifle, I read and reread Sam Fadala's BP Handbook, particularly the part about flintocks. He was pretty emphatic about using a small priming charge backed away from the vent. I followed his advice and got many flashes in the pan. With a full, but level pan things improved. After reading Pletcher's article, I'm going to bank the powder next to the vent and continue to clear the vent with a brass wire to see if I can ignite the main charge 100% of the time.



*Larry had a lockplate fixture that enabled him to vary the pan : vent height.
I locate my vent so a pan full of powder will be centered at the vent hole. No banking or short priming, just fill the pan.
No matter what anyone says, if the powder is over the vent, it has to burn down to the hole before flame can enter. Granted that powder burns fast but it only takes a millisecond to move the gun. You want the very first contact with the frizzen to throw sparks in the pan, the gun will fire before the cock is all the way down and the frizzen is fully open.
Banked powder away from the touch hole makes for a long flame travel and it might not go in the hole at all. In that case it is better to just cover the hole a little if it is too low.
A poor lock has to drag the flint all the way down the frizzen face, or the flint will break making less sparks. That is the main reason for slow firing. The harder the steel, the hotter the sparks are so as locks get cheaper so do the sparks until there are none at all with some of the imported repro guns.
I would rather use a 200 year old lock then some of the junk put on guns today. You have to start with a quality lock. :Fire:

[44man]

I just watched the movies and was surprised to see few sparks at flint contact and the flint was in the pan before ignition. I just checked mine and got a pile of sparks right off and if I hold the gun sideways to try and see where it starts to spark, sparks fell on the carpet, thought I would start it on fire. I would sure like to see mine in slow motion.
This rifle is extremely fast.

[waksupi]

Paul, just to throw another stick on the fire. When we have a fairly close "gimme" target, there are several of us who shoot our flinters upside down. The ignition is still fast, although you do notice the fire falling from the pan on ignition. And, it amazes those not familiar with flinters, especially when we hit the target!

[Maven]

Upside down? That's impresive, as I'm just managing to hold that long, untapered bbl. on the Dixie steady right side up! However, I have learned a few things about its preferences: (1) It needs longer & flints than I originally thought. (2) Bevel down is better than bevel up. (3) Four "doses" from the pan charger (I've gone back to using it) banked toward the touchhole give pretty reliable ignition.

[Old Ironsights]

Paul, just to throw another stick on the fire. When we have a fairly close "gimme" target, there are several of us who shoot our flinters upside down. The ignition is still fast, although you do notice the fire falling from the pan on ignition. And, it amazes those not familiar with flinters, especially when we hit the target!

I was gonna mention that. A properly timed flint with good 4F or finer will fire upside down almost every time (humidity makes a difference...)

[Multigunner]

I remember reading in books of the flint era of the firing of a flintlock held upside down to have been a measure of the gunmakers (or lock makers) expertise.

[Lead Fred]

Myth: Caplocks ignite faster than a properly tuned Flintlock.



Anyone who owns a flintlock, knows better

[stubshaft]

Anyone who owns a flintlock, knows better


Rocklocks Rule!

[Ron60]

For what it's worth.
I always modify flint locks on guns I build (last 20 years or so) so that the outer end of the pan is both deeper and wider than the portion which is closest to the vent. I weld the pans up so I can make the pan not much larger at the vent than the size of the vent hole.
This borrows from some technology familliar to explosives users called a shaped charge.
I position the vent so that the center of the hole is on the same level as the center of the top of the pan. With the pan full of 4FG there's still 50% of the vent open.
The hot jet of gas produced by the priming powder burning is what ignites the main charge. This set up gets the powder both close to the vent so close to the charge and there's plenty of it with the larger capacity for powder at the outer end.
Personally I prefer the bulk of the prime at the outside of the pan. But with this set up there's still some right at the vent. The large capacity of primer simply makes for good reliable ignition even if everything is not perfect. This arrangement does not quite guarantee ignition with the lock up side down or canted away from the vent.
If anyone is interest I can try to post some digrams of how I do this. The British had if figured out pretty early.
Hope this helps someone out there. Not all flint locks are created equal. It can safely be said that it's a lot more trouble coming up with a good, fast, and reliable flint lock than a cap lock that simply works.
Ron Paull

[Ron60]

PS.
The "Lab Tests" were interesting and well done.
I do have to wonder however how things would change - if at all - on a normally loaded rifle or smooth bore with a 50 to 100 grain charges behind a patched ball - using the gun's complete lock system and allowing for the variables that will impart to the testing.
Under field conditions and using the pan design I make, ignition 'seems' to be more reliable when I tap the butt of the rifle in a way that more or less assures there's no prime completely covering the vent. I've always thought it worked well in a normal pan arrangement but the tests here suggest otherwise.
Of corse I have never used the testing methods and precision in these tests. I'm not sure that would be possible with a completely assembled arm with field loads and natural flint.
In other words; the flint lock arm is almost an 'organic' thing born of art as much as science and may resist lab testing in that what happens in the field with a hand loaded gun that is carried around in varying conditions would not closely approximate what happens in a lab under controlled circumstances.
Besides - and this is strictly subjective - are not most named firearms given feminine monikers - - - for a reason??!!
Just another 2 cents.

[waksupi]

Hey Ron, good to hear from you. I heard you had moved to Alaska. Get tired of Cut Bank?

Interesting thoughts on pan shape.

Ric Carter

[Ron60]

Actually, no. Jean and loved the folks in Cut Bank - the geography was something else but the people made up for it. Was pastoring there and got what on the face of it looked like a "great opportunity" in Lewistown - lasted 11 months and I couldn't stand it any more. The Alaska thing was a God Send and just seemed to work out naturally. It's awesome here. Great people and great country and as far from the shenanigans going on is D.C. as possible. It's almost like a different country. A throw back to what America was 40 - 50 years ago.
On Flint locks; it's tough country here for them. Lots of rain and high humidity. So they have to be tuned to a fair thee well.
As noted in the tests the human senses are a terrible measure of the minute variations in lock time. So I have made my main criteria speed and reliability. If you ever read the story of Simon Kenton you'll recall as "fast" rifle lock almost cost him his life and did cost him a long stay in captivity. Once free he had him a gun made using a well tuned musket lock. Not quite as fast as a nice sporting rifle lock but it was reliable.
If I ever get to hunt a brown bear with a flint lock here reliability - then speed is going to be the order of my tuning efforts. Any good flint shooter knows than once the trigger is squeezed you have to be ready for anything from super quick ignition to hang fires so you practice, practice follow through.
How's things in Somers? I heard it was really hot this year. Yesterday was our warmest day of the summer at 71 - - - for about three hours.
Ron

[waksupi]

Actually, no. Jean and loved the folks in Cut Bank - the geography was something else but the people made up for it. Was pastoring there and got what on the face of it looked like a "great opportunity" in Lewistown - lasted 11 months and I couldn't stand it any more. The Alaska thing was a God Send and just seemed to work out naturally. It's awesome here. Great people and great country and as far from the shenanigans going on is D.C. as possible. It's almost like a different country. A throw back to what America was 40 - 50 years ago.
On Flint locks; it's tough country here for them. Lots of rain and high humidity. So they have to be tuned to a fair thee well.
As noted in the tests the human senses are a terrible measure of the minute variations in lock time. So I have made my main criteria speed and reliability. If you ever read the story of Simon Kenton you'll recall as "fast" rifle lock almost cost him his life and did cost him a long stay in captivity. Once free he had him a gun made using a well tuned musket lock. Not quite as fast as a nice sporting rifle lock but it was reliable.
If I ever get to hunt a brown bear with a flint lock here reliability - then speed is going to be the order of my tuning efforts. Any good flint shooter knows than once the trigger is squeezed you have to be ready for anything from super quick ignition to hang fires so you practice, practice follow through.
How's things in Somers? I heard it was really hot this year. Yesterday was our warmest day of the summer at 71 - - - for about three hours.
Ron

I'm surprised you didn't like Lewistown. One of my favorite places in the state.
This has been about the nicest summer I have seen here, not real hot, some rain.
Most of the old crew is still around, had a beer with Taylor and some other Freetrappers yesterday.
Fine rifle you built for Jim Sharp. A real masterpiece!

I appear to have hijacked my own thread!

[SamTexas49]

Another bit of info I recall reading and seeing a video demonstration on a "well tuned" flintlock is you can submerg it in a bucket of water (clsed of course) bring out and fire it ! If the fits pefect then no water gets in pan !

[waksupi]

Another bit of info I recall reading and seeing a video demonstration on a "well tuned" flintlock is you can submerg it in a bucket of water (clsed of course) bring out and fire it ! If the fits pefect then no water gets in pan !


I'd like to see that one. I know of no way to totally waterproof a flintlock. I know you can seal open edges with a grease or wax, and it will help somewhat. It is water that migrates in the barrel channel to the bolster area that is generally the problem. I carry mine with a scrap of wool blanket over the lock area, and have no ignition problems in rain or snow.
Welcome aboard!

[SamTexas49]

been way to long ago I came across that bit of info but it was a "dip test" lock on rifle.

[Ron60]

I used to use Snow Seal around the pan. Didn't seem to make all that much difference.
Again; out in the field is a whole different ball game than in the "lab" ( or kitchen with a bucket of water!) - - - "Dip Test", good name =)
Anyway if your hunting with your trusty flinlock, just the moisture in the air on a rainy day will often ruin the charge in the pan even if you could somehow keep the water out.
I have not hunted with a flintlock yet here on Kodiak Island. I suspect I'm going to have to satisfy myself with a caplock most of the time. Happily we get to hunt clear through the end of December so get some nice brisk days of sun and cold. Good flintlock weather.
RE: Lewistown. The the fellow who was the district supervisor for the 'job' I had there was really what made it unbearable - but he was himself, was a 'feriner' from the left coast. Opportunity called here - took it, have not been sorry.
I could say my only regret is that we did not discover Alaska when we were young.

[firefly1957]

Something I have not seen mentioned and it has a lot of effect is the touch hole it's self. The shape and the depth to powder charge have an effect on ignition. My only flintlock is a Hatfield and it uses a SS liner which works well. I installed the same liner in a 40 cal. Green Mountain barrel I installed as I was unhappy with the original 35 caliber barrel ( supposed to be 36 ).

[GMW]

Here is a good reason to make sure your powder horn is capped and safety glasses are not a bad idea:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/washag/DSC_0088.jpg

[RBak]

Another bit of info I recall reading and seeing a video demonstration on a "well tuned" flintlock is you can submerg it in a bucket of water (clsed of course) bring out and fire it ! If the fits pefect then no water gets in pan !

Chambers still has the Round Faced Lock which is advertised as having a water proof pan......
I couldn't get the picture but this is what's said about this lock.

Round Face English Flintlock
Model #L-12

This lock is interchangeable with the Colonial Virginia lock, but has the added features of a relief border around the plate and cock, and a raised waterproof pan. Both locks have the cam-type action, a sear that remains in the same position throughout the cocking cycle, and a very long service life. Locks of this quality would have been found on high-grade English fowlers or officers' fuses.
http://www.flintlocks.com/locks4.htm

I have a .62 smoothbore with this lock and it's a pretty nice lock....sparks like crazy everytime, charge has never gotten damp, and that's what it's all about.
There's probably others that are as good, or maybe even better, but I ain't found no fleas on this dog. It's a good lock.

Russ

[Multigunner]

Something I've been wondering about, perhaps one of you guys knows the answer.

Would an ignition point at the front of the powder space, just behind the bullet, make for a more efficient propelling impulse of the gases and cleaner burning?

Only reason this comes to mind is that at one time they marketed cartridge cases with a flash tube that ran from the primer pocket to just behind where the bullet base would be when seated. The charge burned from front to back instead of from back to front.

Another question.
Napolean's heavy artillery achieved greater range for the same amount of powder by using a powder chamber much smaller than the bore size.
As the powder first begain to burn and pushed the cannon ball further up the bore the amount of space the powder had to burn in greatly increased. Something like this is achieved with the high/low pressure charge chamber inside the 40mm grenade casings. The powder burns at a high pressure but the propellent gas pressure is released through vents to provide a long steady acceleration rather than a sharp kick in the pants.

I think this sort of breech (the Napoleanic powder chamber) was used on some muzzle loaders, but none that I've encountered so far.
The effect , so far as acceleration of the projectile goes) was similar to a progressive burning powder.
Are any modern muzzle loaders made this way?

[rhbrink]

On the Flintlock forum? Is nothing sacred? :kidding:

All kidding aside I think that ulta modern musket loaders are made that way, but don't know for sure never had my grubby paws on one.

[Multigunner]

On the Flintlock forum? Is nothing sacred? :kidding:

All kidding aside I think that ulta modern musket loaders are made that way, but don't know for sure never had my grubby paws on one.

I should have said Modern Replica Muzzle loaders. I have no use for the sort of adapted breakdown single shot and inline bolt guns you're thinking of when I said modern.

I meant the traditional style muzzle loaders manufactured in recent times.

I suppose the Napoleanic artillery powder chamber could be easily replicated for testing purposes by making a custom breech plug or sleeving the breech of one of those break down guns.

PS
I just remembered the term "Patent Breech" . A quick search revealed that replicas of some muzzle loaders like the Whitworth target rifles can be found with the patent breech with under bore size powder chamber.
Since this powder chamber dates back to flintlock days I guess they likely used it for some flintlock shoulder arms as well.
Only real drawback seems to be difficulty in cleaning the powder chamber.

[rhbrink]

Thats good all is forgiven then!;)

[Hickory]

Here is a good reason to make sure your powder horn is capped and safety glasses are not a bad idea:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/washag/DSC_0088.jpg

I was in the southern part of Ohio one fall deer hunting with a muzzleloader.
I had been a dry month or so, and it was like walking on corn flakes, which can be good or bad, depending on who or what is walking.

It was in the after noon and I was setting at the base of a tree sort of dozing but not asleep. I heard crunching about a hundred yards away.
A six point was moving throw the wood as if no one was around.

I got a bead on him and was about to shoot, when he made it easier for me by stopping. At the shot he dropped where he stood. Keeping my eyes on him I reloaded and walking towards him.

I was almost up to him when I smelled smoke. I turned around and where I had been setting the leaves on the ground were on fire.:holysheep
It took a few minutes but I got the fire out.
If your not careful a person can really make thing hot.

[fliintlock555]

New here and was wondering about the testing in that it didn't vary the size of the vent hole.
Any info on doing this

[waksupi]

I don't believe they did various vent sizes. From my experience, it seems the smaller you can use and get consistent ignition the better. A smaller hole gives a more concentrated flame. I've seen some guys that have self priming locks, that I consider very dangerous. Enlarged vents can also allow a large amount of powder to be blasted out of the hole while loading, giving a short charge.

[Maven]

Here are some guidelines about touch hole diameter from Larry Pletcher:

The difference between the area of 1/16" hole and 5/64" is much bigger than one thinks. The area of a 5/64" hole is 56% larger than 1/16". If you decide to drill larger there are 5 different numbered bits between these 2 sizes:

1/16" = 0.0625
52 = 0.064
51 = 0.067
50 = 0.070
49 = 0.073
48 = 0.076
5/64" = 0.078

Your local hardware has these. I'd start with a #52 bit and go progressive larger until you get the reliability you want. Don't go larger than necessary.

What Larry Pletcher has observed:
1. A 1/16" vent works well if properly located, kept clean, and properly maintained.
2. A clean vent is more important than a large vent.
3. I like #51 bit hole not because it fires better, but because a pipe cleaner fits - (remember "clean in #1.)
4. A dirty large vent does work better than a dirty small vent.


Also, with respect to not keeping your powder horn, powder can, pan charger tightly closed, the March, 2011 "Muzzle Blasts" has an article about this hazard. It's called "A Brass Grenade," by Roger Fisher, and graphically shows what can happen when little things are ignored or forgotten.

[garry r]

Myth: Caplocks ignite faster than a properly tuned Flintlock.

I've seen flinters go off as fast as a cartridge gun.

And a properly tuned flintlock will also fire UPSIDE-DOWN.

They are amazing machines.

i agree. i tried firing my flintlock upside down just to see cause i thought it wouldnt and it fired just thesame as right side up .

[Pigslayer]

For what it's worth.
I always modify flint locks on guns I build (last 20 years or so) so that the outer end of the pan is both deeper and wider than the portion which is closest to the vent. I weld the pans up so I can make the pan not much larger at the vent than the size of the vent hole.
This borrows from some technology familliar to explosives users called a shaped charge.
I position the vent so that the center of the hole is on the same level as the center of the top of the pan. With the pan full of 4FG there's still 50% of the vent open.
The hot jet of gas produced by the priming powder burning is what ignites the main charge. This set up gets the powder both close to the vent so close to the charge and there's plenty of it with the larger capacity for powder at the outer end.
Personally I prefer the bulk of the prime at the outside of the pan. But with this set up there's still some right at the vent. The large capacity of primer simply makes for good reliable ignition even if everything is not perfect. This arrangement does not quite guarantee ignition with the lock up side down or canted away from the vent.
If anyone is interest I can try to post some digrams of how I do this. The British had if figured out pretty early.
Hope this helps someone out there. Not all flint locks are created equal. It can safely be said that it's a lot more trouble coming up with a good, fast, and reliable flint lock than a cap lock that simply works.
Ron Paull
I wholly agree. I've built two with the vent positioned exactly as you stated. Seldom do I have a shot not fire . . . and they fire fast. I have no need to fire upside down.

[nicholst55]

Something I've been wondering about, perhaps one of you guys knows the answer.

Would an ignition point at the front of the powder space, just behind the bullet, make for a more efficient propelling impulse of the gases and cleaner burning?

Only reason this comes to mind is that at one time they marketed cartridge cases with a flash tube that ran from the primer pocket to just behind where the bullet base would be when seated. The charge burned from front to back instead of from back to front.

Another question.
Napolean's heavy artillery achieved greater range for the same amount of powder by using a powder chamber much smaller than the bore size.
As the powder first begain to burn and pushed the cannon ball further up the bore the amount of space the powder had to burn in greatly increased. Something like this is achieved with the high/low pressure charge chamber inside the 40mm grenade casings. The powder burns at a high pressure but the propellent gas pressure is released through vents to provide a long steady acceleration rather than a sharp kick in the pants.

I think this sort of breech (the Napoleanic powder chamber) was used on some muzzle loaders, but none that I've encountered so far.
The effect , so far as acceleration of the projectile goes) was similar to a progressive burning powder.
Are any modern muzzle loaders made this way?

If I understand you correctly, the Lyman rifles - at least the Great Plains Rifles - are made this way. It makes cleaning problematic, but seems to work well enough otherwise.

[Dirty30]

I just read that issue of Muzzleloader with the Simon Kenton article in it! Getting caught up on back issues.

[stubshaft]

JFTR - The cartridges with the extended flash tubes were the OKH Oneil, Keith and Hopkins line of wildcats.

[PanaDP]

I'd like to see that one. I know of no way to totally waterproof a flintlock. I know you can seal open edges with a grease or wax, and it will help somewhat. It is water that migrates in the barrel channel to the bolster area that is generally the problem. I carry mine with a scrap of wool blanket over the lock area, and have no ignition problems in rain or snow.
Welcome aboard!

I think you could do it with a little extra work on the lock. One could hone the top surface of the pan and the bottom surface of the frizzen very flat and then rub both surfaces with beeswax so it makes a seal when closed. The problem with this is that a wet frizzen face will cause a misfire every time, I think. With that given, better to just cover the whole lock area. I use an oiled piece of leather I made that ties to the trigger guard.

[Col4570]

Rainproof Pan is a better description and does prevent an ingress of water for a while.If hunting dangerous game clean out and reprime the pan at every oportunity.I usualy tip the pan away from the toutch hole after priming, the flame should skip over the top of the powder for quick ignition.

[Flintlock1812]

Great Thread! Lots of great stuff in the Black powder mag. A great book to have is: Flintlocks- A practical Guide for their use and appreciation by Eric Bye

[crowbarforge]

Great thread with links to lots of information on locks and what a "properly tuned" lock should do. Thanks to those who spent considerable time in gathering the goods.

[bigted]

so I am slow getting here and the link don't work for me. is there a updated link that will take me where the action is?

[waksupi]

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/category/articles/experiments/

Check the catagories section, I think you can get there.

[bigted]

thanx bubba ... that one worked. I have it saved now.

[Colonels]

Just had a KY Longrifle built for me. My first blackpowder gun. My uncle is a NMLRA member and a member of the Kentucky Corps of Longriflemen, and has been building for 40 years. It's a .46 caliber with a Siler lock, curly maple stock, a swamped Rice barrel, and hand-forged iron mounts. We sight it in next Saturday.

144750

144751

144752

144753

144754

144755



144756

144757

[RBak]

Now THAT is a very nice looking rifle.
When you say ",46 cal.", what size is the bore?

Russ

[kens]

Very nice,
I didn't realize there were any more gunsmiths like that still around.
Beautiful workmanship

[waksupi]

Very nicely done!

[Colonels]

Now THAT is a very nice looking rifle.
When you say ",46 cal.", what size is the bore?

Russ

46/100ths of an inch. I will have to hand cast all of the roundballs at .457"

[Colonels]

Very nice,
I didn't realize there were any more gunsmiths like that still around.
Beautiful workmanship

There are pockets of skilled longrifle builders still around...primarily in Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Tennessee. My uncle got interested about 40 years ago after putting together a flintlock pistol kit (Traditions (https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/category/Pistol-kit)). Kits like those are certainly functional, but in the interest of more historical accuracy, he got into building rifles from the basics as they used to be. Groups like the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (http://nmlra.org/), the Kentucky Corps of Longriflemen (http://www.kyclr.com/), and the Contemporary Longrifle Association (http://www.longrifle.com/) do manage to keep makers in touch with one another.

There are also some people and websites out there who sell higher quality kits, such as Track Of The Wolf (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Category.aspx/588), and then folks like Jim Chambers (http://www.flintlocks.com/) (the owner of the Siler Lock Company) have sites that sell "kits" that are basically all of the basic raw materials of a longrifle, and then leave the maker to do all the work once those materials are in-hand.

A few other websites of interest:
Kentucky Rifle Foundation (http://kentuckyriflefoundation.org/)
Contemporary Makers (http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/)
AmericanLongrifles.org (http://americanlongrifles.org/)

[waksupi]

There are pockets of skilled longrifle builders still around...primarily in Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Tennessee. My uncle got interested about 40 years ago after putting together a flintlock pistol kit (Traditions (https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/category/Pistol-kit)). Kits like those are certainly functional, but in the interest of more historical accuracy, he got into building rifles from the basics as they used to be. Groups like the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (http://nmlra.org/), the Kentucky Corps of Longriflemen (http://www.kyclr.com/), and the Contemporary Longrifle Association (http://www.longrifle.com/) do manage to keep makers in touch with one another.

There are also some people and websites out there who sell higher quality kits, such as Track Of The Wolf (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Category.aspx/588), and then folks like Jim Chambers (http://www.flintlocks.com/) (the owner of the Siler Lock Company) have sites that sell "kits" that are basically all of the basic raw materials of a longrifle, and then leave the maker to do all the work once those materials are in-hand.

A few other websites of interest:
Kentucky Rifle Foundation (http://kentuckyriflefoundation.org/)
Contemporary Makers (http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/)
AmericanLongrifles.org (http://americanlongrifles.org/)


They aren't just back east. We tried counting them up, and had at least 27 local builders in this and the adjoining county we could think of, that just being muzzle loader builders. Lots more modern builders around, too.
It is interesting that very few out here know who any of the top builders back east are, as few back east know anything of the builders in this county, or out west in general.

[Colonels]

They aren't just back east. We tried counting them up, and had at least 27 local builders in this and the adjoining county we could think of, that just being muzzle loader builders. Lots more modern builders around, too.
It is interesting that very few out here know who any of the top builders back east are, as few back east know anything of the builders in this county, or out west in general.

That's a very good point you make there...

[kens]

I remember attending Friendship back in the mid-seventies, the primitive area shoots. There were many active folks from Montana.
I built a plain steel Tennessee rifle in high school. It wears a Siler (original) lock, douglas barrel, and beech stock.
Carved out my own iron sights.

[Sharpsman]

"There are a lot of things we know.....that just ain't so!"

[northmn]

I used to build rifles and shoot competition. Studied the various lock types and so forth. The test of a good English rainproof lock was supposed to be to prime it and put ones finger or thumb over the opening and dip it in a pail of water and then see if it flashes. Don't know if that was fact or myth, but we are talking about rifle makers like Manton who had specialists building rifles, some say 28 hands were involved in making an English game gun. Locks evolved through the years just like anything else. The rain proof lock had a channel with a narrow part of the flash pan up against the touch hole as mentioned. Many used a breech that permitted the lock to be rebated for slimness, especially in shotguns. As to touch hole size, many were built to be self priming, in which the powder when charging dribbled through the touch hole into the pan. Safety was not a big issue back then though the best locks had safeties. I built a little 25 cal flintlock that uses a #3 buckshot ball. It burns best with 4f but due to the fineness of the powder I use 3f as it became self priming with 4f.
The most reliable flintlock I ever used was a repo Brown Bess. That lock was slow but it went off. I also did a lot of lock tuning when I ws involved in competition. Had to bend hammers and adjust springs to get them to work. Another feature of the English lock was the stirrup on the mainspring which gave a faster lock time and more snap to the frizzen. Rollers on the frizzen made them kick open more reliably.
One has to look at the old time uses of the flintlock. A British light infantryman mentioned that early morning was the best time to hunt rebels as the dew made the locks more unrealiable and they could rush in and stick them with bayonets. Riflemen had very little impact in the Revolutionary War as their weapons were slow to load and not as reliable as the musket. The British used riflemen in the Napoleanic wars but as special units. The main brunt was that of muskets and bayonets.
Look at the Harpers Ferry rifle which is the first American military rifle (previous to that, they were all personal) Large lock for reliability.
As to speed of ignition, if properly tuned and primed on a firing lien they can be fairly fast, but the one thing you learn shooting flintlock is that you much follow through. The measurements I had seen on ignition times had a certain variance. Actual speed of ignition was mostly a modern idea for targets. Reliability was a big issue in the early days.

DEP

[bigted]

glad to see this as a sticky. great additions and info here. thanks Rick for beginning this thread.

[toot]

waksupi, the black powder site that you listed could not be found.

[waksupi]

waksupi, the black powder site that you listed could not be found.


Things come and go on the net. Try a search, you may find it.

[Maven]

toot, Ric's link works for me: https://www.blackpowdermag.com/category/articles/experiments/

[indian joe]

toot, Ric's link works for me: https://www.blackpowdermag.com/category/articles/experiments/

Maven
Thanks for posting this - the touch hole experiment particularly interesting. The separation of priming charge and main charge by an airgap and asking for ignition to flash from one to the other has never made any sense to me - quite the opposite - I always treated it as one charge as much as was possible - coned touch hole liner to bring the main charge as close to the pan as we could and banked the priming against the touch hole - never used a vent stopper - I see guys loading with a stopper in the vent - and I just go - why do that??? - have had plenty of comments as to how fast my flinter fires "thing goes off like a caplock" but mostly they lose interest as soon as they see the little Dikar lock I am shooting - too cheap = cant be any good - I guess is the thinking.

[waksupi]

Maven
Thanks for posting this - the touch hole experiment particularly interesting. The separation of priming charge and main charge by an airgap and asking for ignition to flash from one to the other has never made any sense to me - quite the opposite - I always treated it as one charge as much as was possible - coned touch hole liner to bring the main charge as close to the pan as we could and banked the priming against the touch hole - never used a vent stopper - I see guys loading with a stopper in the vent - and I just go - why do that??? - have had plenty of comments as to how fast my flinter fires "thing goes off like a caplock" but mostly they lose interest as soon as they see the little Dikar lock I am shooting - too cheap = cant be any good - I guess is the thinking.

For those who leave a vent pick in while loading, if they will just give the gun a couple light slaps, or bounce it lightly on the ground a couple times to settle the powder properly, that is unnecessary, and gets the powder as close to the vent as is possible. THEN seat your patched ball. Same holds true for percussion and flint.

[GWarden]

Thanks for posting the site, lots of great info.
bob

[fast ronnie]

Good article. Just ordered a kit today. Just a few weeks away, though. It will be something new for me.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

This cast boolit thing has been nudging me towards holy black for a while. Very interesting.......

[toot]

when I go to the site, it comes up page not found, shame as I would rely like to see it.

[toot]

Maven, it did work, thanking you. it is one helleva of a site!!

[toot]

has any one ever fired or tried to fire a flintlock in / under water? just courious? and what about the so called water proof / sheading pans also? I would rely like to know if any one has tried any of them?

[waksupi]

has any one ever fired or tried to fire a flintlock in / under water? just courious? and what about the so called water proof / sheading pans also? I would rely like to know if any one has tried any of them?

You can't fire them underwater, and the "waterproof" pans, ain't. I do find flintlocks to be more dependable in wet conditions though.

[KenH]

You can't fire them underwater, and the "waterproof" pans, ain't. I do find flintlocks to be more dependable in wet conditions though.
More dependable than what - percussion caps?

[waksupi]

More dependable than what - percussion caps?

Yes.

[gunther]

Look up the battle of King's Mountain. Mostly rifleman (Over Mountain men) vs Patrick Ferguson's regiment. There was a small fight a few days before the battle. Between the Virginia and Tennessee contingents of the Over Mountain Men. About who would be in command. Split decision, so the Tennesseans went up the front slope and the Virginians circled around and scaled the cliffs behind the British position.Bad day for the Brits.
And there was another battle (Saratoga, I think) where the British commander was a bit too habitual about checking his position each morning. A rifleman (Timothy Murphy) got him at a couple of hundred yards, and the Brits withdrew. Saratoga forced Cornwallis to concentrate on a Southern campaign, and King's Mountain forced him to retreat to Yorktown.

[stripe]

I am a new member to this site and just this morning found this section on ML. It is a remarkable treasure trove of valuable information and just plain BP/ ML shooting. I will read through it line by line in the coming days.
But I wanted to take a moment and comment on the piece about Chuck Dixon.I first met Chuck and then his son Greg about 25 years ago when I got interested in Flintlocks and ML. Two of the most helpful and informative folks I have ever had the pleasure to speak with. And it's due to their help,a nd patience, that I continue with ML shooting to this day. The last time I spoke with Chuck was probably 10 years ago when I was at Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop there in Kempton. Chuck was spraying weeds in the lower parking lot area and we spoke. And we spoke for about an hour and at not time did guns, hunting, shooting ever enter the conversation. We spoke about living and his philosophy on this subject. To this day I recall that conversation vividly in my mind and I cherish the time we spent together and hearing his views. Chuck was much more than a watershed of information and knowledge on BP guns and shooting. His views on the nature of man, life, death and God were similar, if not exactly the same, as mine and how he articulated them in that conversation will always remain with me.

[missionary5155]

This is still a fine read after all this time.

[Sandro_ventania]

Which is noisier, a flintlock or a caps lock (because of the caps)?

[indian joe]

Yes.

not the dominant experience I think !
I enjoy my flintlock shooting and have chosen to use it against caplocks in open comp numerous times - i do better with the heft and longer sight radius of a long rifle -
Dependable? we live (and shoot) in a fairly dry environment - caplocks go bang everytime you pull the trigger (unles something broke last shot) flintlocks usually do too - so long as you do all the stuff that needs done to keep them working well - dependableness of a flintlock is much more in the hands of the operator rather than the mechanism

[waksupi]

Which is noisier, a flintlock or a caps lock (because of the caps)?

I always hear a distinct lag between when a cap pops, and the charge ignites.

[RBak]

I always hear a distinct lag between when a cap pops, and the charge ignites.

Yep Rick, me too...and I don't think it's unique or special in any way, Others have been telling me that same thing for years.

[Edward]

I always hear a distinct lag between when a cap pops, and the charge ignites.

Only if you can't properly clean the gun and donate a couple caps to clear what you missed/left ./Ed

[Sandro_ventania]

I always hear a distinct lag between when a cap pops, and the charge ignites.

My hearing isn't that good. I usually hear just one sound.

[LAGS]

Ever since I was a kid.
We referred to ML's as Bang Booms.
They almost always made that sound.
It is so fast , that it is actually hard to hear if it is a percussion gun.
But flinters seems to have a definite Bang Booms to them.
Just my opinion, but my hearing is going bad now also.

[Hannibal]

Ever since I was a kid.
We referred to ML's as Bang Booms.
They almost always made that sound.
It is so fast , that it is actually hard to hear if it is a percussion gun.
But flinters seems to have a definite Bang Booms to them.
Just my opinion, but my hearing is going bad now also.

Agreed. Definitely more noticeable if you're a spotter and not the shooter, too.

You learn to shoot a ML with decent accuracy it'll make it easy-peasy to shoot modern firearms. Unless they have accuracy issues, obviously.

I think many people think they are hearing a 'report'. Not so with a ML.

Bang-BOOM!!!

[dondiego]

I have shot flintlocks that were instantaneous, no bang-Boom!

[indian joe]

Yep Rick, me too...and I don't think it's unique or special in any way, Others have been telling me that same thing for years.

you boys got better ears (or a different brain) than me
If you can hear a lag in a capgun that thing aint built right or it aint workin right

[LAGS]

It really isn't a Lag in the discharge in most cases.
It is just the two different sounds.

[waksupi]

you boys got better ears (or a different brain) than me
If you can hear a lag in a capgun that thing aint built right or it aint workin right

I think it's only noticeable to flintlock shooters standing by caplock shooters!

[Hannibal]

It really isn't a Lag in the discharge in most cases.
It is just the two different sounds.

Yes. Exactly right.

[LAGS]

My ears hear the sharp Pop from the cap.
And a very fast BOOM when the bullet leaves the barrel.
But I only hear it that way when I am watching someone else shoot.
If I am shooting.
The sound is almost the same timing because the line is the cap , than the bore in a distance from my ears.

[HWooldridge]

Those of you who remember Fess Parker as Daniel Boone may recall his rifle always went, “chik-BOOM” but I suspect the noise was artificially generated for the show.

[LAGS]

I have noticed,
If I do Blank Loads in my rifles.
It seems like there is a greater space between the flint or cap popping and the sound coming out of the barrel.
I always thought it was because the barrel load did not have a lot of restrictions that the bullet or ball provided.
So the load was burning more as it went down the barrel with less pressure.
So the blank load isn't as big of Boom as a regular load.

[Sandro_ventania]

But the question is...does the caps increase the noise at the end of it all?
Or does it make no difference?
Which is more pleasant to the ears?
I never shot with a flintlock.

[LAGS]

IMO.
The cap is a sharper sound than the flint is.
But both are not bad on the ears.
I do not wear ear protection when shooting muzzleloaders, Unless there are other people at the range shooting centerfires.
My ears never start ringing when I am out hunting with a ML.
But they often do with centerfires , even if I am shooting something like a .22 LR.

[Sandro_ventania]

IMO.
The cap is a sharper sound than the flint is.
But both are not bad on the ears.
I do not wear ear protection when shooting muzzleloaders, Unless there are other people at the range shooting centerfires.
My ears never start ringing when I am out hunting with a ML.
But they often do with centerfires , even if I am shooting something like a .22 LR.

yes... muzzleloader are better! Especially the ones with a very long barrel.

[john.k]

Blackpowder is always a softer noise ,quite distinct from smokeless ........the only really loud blackpowder gun Ive heard was a 4 bore that fired some 200+ grains of powder.

[indian joe]

Those of you who remember Fess Parker as Daniel Boone may recall his rifle always went, “chik-BOOM” but I suspect the noise was artificially generated for the show.

Its how 90% of flintlocks behave at the range - if these things were instantaneous we would not need to be good at follow through ? and good follow through is the mark of a good flintlock shooter - you cannot flinch these things and get a decent result .