Help!!!Bullet hardness

[joeb33050]

This is for the book. Need criticism, comment, additions, etc. I want to get this right.
Thanks;
joe b.
BULLET HARDNESS REQUIREMENTS
Ric Bowman, Bill McGraw, joe b.,
The bullet hardness required for accuracy with no leading is greatly affected by bullet fit to the gun, the quality of the barrel and in revolvers, of the cylinder, and the choice of powder.
The lubricant used may affect results, although at moderate velocities the variation of accuracy with changes in lubricant is small..

A. For black powder muzzle loading rifles, where the bullet is to be loaded at bore size, or less, it must expand to groove size upon firing (obturate). The bullet should be made of lead only, with no or very little tin or antimony. BHN would be in the range of 4.2 - 5. Muzzle loading balls should be as close to 100% lead as possible.

B. For black powder cartridge guns, where the chamber / cartridge / bullet dimensions are such that the largest bullet that can be loaded is smaller than throat or groove diameter, the bullet should be made of lead only, with very little tin and no antimony. BHN would be in the range of 4.2 - 6. These cartridges include, in some guns, .41 Colt, 44-40, 38-40 and some transitional military rifles such as the Springfield 45/70, Werndl and Snider.

C. Revolver bullets that are as large as the cylinder throat will shoot accurately and without leading, regardless of alloy, up to 850 f/s provided they are adequately lubricated. Revolver bullets that are as large as the cylinder throat will shoot accurately and without leading, if made from wheel weights, up to 1100 fps with proper lubrication. Generally, a harder alloy does NOT reduce leading or increase accuracy above 1100 fps. Excellent accuracy combined with no leading at velocities above 1100 fps requires a lot of experimentation with different powders of various burning rates and lubricants.

D. Some Schuetzen shooters contend that at velocities below 1500 fps, accuracy is better with lead and tin alloys, without any antimony or arsenic. Other shooters contend that wheel weight alloy works very well.

E. For rifles at velocities up to about 1500 fps, properly fitted PLAIN BASED = WITHOUT GAS CHECK bullets of wheel weights with BHN of ~12 are accurate.

F. For rifles at velocities up to about 1800 fps, properly fitted GAS CHECKED bullets of wheel weights with BHN of ~12 are accurate.

G. For rifles at velocities up to 2100 f/s, GAS CHECKED bullets of linotype alloy with a BHN of ~21/22 will produce excellent accuracy, if the bullet is a very close fit to the throat.
(This is outside of my area of personal knowledge)

[David R]

You can keep going with the gas checked heat treated or water quenched for a hardness up to 30 and I have had velocities up to 2684 fps in my 22-250.

I have shot 2400 fps with no leading, but also unaccaptable accuracy.

David

[Bass Ackward]

This is for the book. Need criticism, comment, additions, etc. I want to get this right.
Thanks;
joe b.

BULLET HARDNESS REQUIREMENTS
Ric Bowman, Bill McGraw, joe b.,
The bullet hardness required for accuracy with no leading is greatly affected by bullet fit to the gun, the quality of the barrel and in revolvers, of the cylinder, and the choice of powder.
The lubricant used may affect results, although at moderate velocities the variation of accuracy with changes in lubricant is small..



Joe,

There are many points that can be argued here and mostly it comes down to experience or familiarity issues. Think about this for an opener.

The bullet hardness required varries from firearm to firearm based on many factors that all contribute directly to pressure. Some of these factors are internal bore finish, rifling height, lubricant used, and in the case of revolvers, the relationship of the cylinder throat and bore dimensions. Even bullet weight and design play a part. Because all of these variables vary widely, there is no set rule for hardness that can't be broken. Of all the variables that we adjust to compensate for these conditions, powder selection gives us the most control. Generally, the faster we bring up pressure, the lower the overall pressure level needs to be for a given bullet hardness. Or, stated another way, the faster pressure comes up before the bullet overcomes inertia, the harder the bullet needs to be to survive the process. As you advance in your knowledge of reloading cast bullets, you will learn techniques of how to control pressure and even adjust some of the conditions of your gun, so that you can achieve some very high velocities with softer lead hardness levels. Below are some hardness guideliness to get you started using cast.

[Bret4207]

Bass made some valid observations. I'll add my 2 cents. You don't mention GC bullets in handguns. I think that would be an unfourtunate ommision. I would also think you'd add a disclaimer along the lines of "generally, usually,often" stuff like that. Blanket statements these days are asking for trouble.

[44man]

Joe, the only question I have is about Brinnel hardness. You show a range of 4.2 to 6 and I understand that pure lead is 5 Brinnel. How did they get softer?

[joeb33050]

Joe, the only question I have is about Brinnel hardness. You show a range of 4.2 to 6 and I understand that pure lead is 5 Brinnel. How did they get softer?
In my adventures with lead alloys and BHN, I find references that cite LEAD BHN from 4.2 to 6, maybe higher. The 6 seems to refer to plumbers ?lead?. The 4.2 seems top refer to very pure lead. There is little agreement. We have references citing WW with BHN from 9-12. All my info suggests WW have BHN of ~~~12.
It's all pretty murky.
By the way, will you let me use your post on revolver accuracy and neck tension etc., if I can find it, in the book? Or, would you write something????Please?
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Bass made some valid observations. I'll add my 2 cents. You don't mention GC bullets in handguns. I think that would be an unfourtunate ommision. I would also think you'd add a disclaimer along the lines of "generally, usually,often" stuff like that. Blanket statements these days are asking for trouble.
I don't know much about handguns. I find disagreement about gas checks on revolver bullets. Elmer, and many others, say that plain based bulloets can be shot at max. velocity in revolovers.
Others say that GC's are needed to eliminate leading.
I can shoot 8.5/Unique, and up to 10 grains, with 429421 in 44 Mag with good accuracy and no leading. I just don't know about GCs in revolvers.See the Lyman 1958 CB handbook, Elmer on one side and Ray Thompson on the other, ON ONE PAGE!!
See my update onj this topic coming soon.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Here's where I am now. HELP!!!
joe b.
BULLET HARDNESS REQUIREMENTS
John Robinson, Ric Bowman, Bill McGraw,

The bullet hardness required varries from firearm to firearm based on many factors that all contribute directly to pressure. Some of these factors are internal bore finish, rifling height, lubricant used, and in the case of revolvers, the relationship of the cylinder throat and bore dimensions. Even bullet weight and design play a part. Because all of these variables vary widely, there is no set rule for hardness that can't be broken. Of all the variables that we adjust to compensate for these conditions, powder selection gives us the most control. Generally, the faster we bring up pressure, the lower the overall pressure level needs to be for a given bullet hardness. Or, stated another way, the faster pressure comes up before the bullet overcomes inertia, the harder the bullet needs to be to survive the process. As you advance in your knowledge of reloading cast bullets, you will learn techniques of how to control pressure and even adjust some of the conditions of your gun, so that you can achieve some very high velocities with softer lead hardness levels. Below are some hardness guideliness to get you started using cast.

A. For black powder muzzle loading rifles, where the bullet is to be loaded at bore size, or less, it must expand to groove size upon firing (obturate). The bullet should be made of lead only, with no or very little tin or antimony. BHN would be in the range of 4.2 - 5. Muzzle loading balls should be as close to 100% lead as possible.

"I have always disagreed with the old adage that muzzle loader round balls have to be soft lead..Pure if you can get it..Well,I have shot houndreds of round balls as well as buffalo bullets made from wheel wweights..So go figure..Good luck .."John Pierce Jr. ASSRA site

B. For black powder cartridge guns, where the chamber / cartridge / bullet dimensions are such that the largest bullet that can be loaded is smaller than throat or groove diameter, the bullet should be made of lead only, with very little tin and no antimony. BHN would be in the range of 4.2 - 6. These cartridges include, in some guns, .41 Colt, 44-40, 38-40 and some transitional military rifles such as the Springfield 45/70, Werndl and Snider.

C. Revolver bullets that are as large as the cylinder throat will shoot accurately and without leading, regardless of alloy, up to 850 f/s provided they are adequately lubricated. Revolver bullets that are as large as the cylinder throat will shoot accurately and without leading, if made from wheel weights, up to 1100 fps with proper lubrication. Generally, a harder alloy does NOT reduce leading or increase accuracy above 1100 fps. Excellent accuracy combined with no leading at velocities above 1100 fps requires a lot of experimentation with different powders of various burning rates and lubricants.
"joe; I have driven many cylinder throat sized wheelweight bullets at full throttle from a .44 magnum with a slick fire-lapped bore with no leading. Incidentally, I have never hardness-tested any WW metal from clip-on type weights which tested as soft as the 9bhn listed by Lyman in their hanbooks. All I have tested has been in the 12 - 13 bhn range on my LBT tester. Maybe they are using a far more sophisticated testing device, however my tester shows the same hardness for pure lead and linotype as shown in their tables so it must be reasonably accurate."
Don H., ASSRA site

D. Some Schuetzen shooters contend that at velocities below 1500 fps, accuracy is better with lead and tin alloys, without any antimony or arsenic. Other shooters contend that wheel weight alloy works very well.

E. For rifles at velocities up to about 1500 fps, properly fitted PLAIN BASED = WITHOUT GAS CHECK bullets of wheel weights with BHN of ~12 are accurate.

F. For rifles at velocities up to about 1800 fps, properly fitted GAS CHECKED bullets of wheel weights with BHN of ~12 are accurate.

G. For rifles at velocities up to 2100 f/s, GAS CHECKED bullets of linotype alloy with a BHN of ~21/22 will produce excellent accuracy, if the bullet is a very close fit to the throat.
(This is outside of my area of personal knowledge)

[Wayne Smith]

Joe

I don't know the organization of your book, but surely this doesn't all belong in an introductory chapter. Consider breaking thinking about bullet hardness into chapters on handgun casting, rifle casting, muzzleloader casting, and C&B casting.

It's only in the C&B's that soft lead is a necessity, and that's to keep from bending the loading lever, not accuracy. Those few cases where the cartridge originally used a heel based bullet, e.g. .44 American, .38 S&W, .38 Colt, .41 Long and Short Colt, and .376 Eley and then switched to an internally loaded bullet without changing the bore diameter clearly need hollow based pure lead bullets in the smaller (internally loaded bullet) loadings. The 44-40 was never loaded heel based, so this does not apply to that cartridge.

Please do more of this. It's only when we see what you've written that we know how to direct your thinking and research.

[joeb33050]

Joe

I don't know the organization of your book, but surely this doesn't all belong in an introductory chapter. Consider breaking thinking about bullet hardness into chapters on handgun casting, rifle casting, muzzleloader casting, and C&B casting.
Please do more of this. It's only when we see what you've written that we know how to direct your thinking and research.

This is one part of one section of the book, which is at castbulletassoc.org, forum, files.

[fecmech]

Joe--I have had no problems with leading over the years in revolvers with plain base bullets at velocities in the 1200-1400fps range (mostly wheel weights+2%tin). My experience is only with 5 .357's and 2 .44 mags but all were capable of excellent accuracy at those velocities. I think the slower powders (296,h110,2400, 4227) are the key to high speeds with plain bases, Unique never worked well for me. Nick

[joeb33050]

Joe

I don't know the organization of your book,

castbulletassoc.org, forum, files is where the book is.
see the table of contents. I'm more interested in getting it down on paper than in org. right now.

It's only in the C&B's that soft lead is a necessity, and that's to keep from bending the loading lever, not accuracy. Those few cases where the cartridge originally used a heel based bullet, e.g. .44 American, .38 S&W, .38 Colt, .41 Long and Short Colt, and .376 Eley and then switched to an internally loaded bullet without changing the bore diameter clearly need hollow based pure lead bullets in the smaller (internally loaded bullet) loadings. The 44-40 was never loaded heel based, so this does not apply to that cartridge.

Added this above

Please do more of this. It's only when we see what you've written that we know how to direct your thinking and research.
Please tell me your name for proper attribution.
Thanks;
joe b.