45acp, 45lc and 45-70 bullets from acp cases??

[rockrat]

Wondering if anyone has tried this. I would think you could take some of the Lee push thru dies and size down 45 acp cases to .451" or so and use the cases to make bullets for 45 colt and 45-70(use the .457 push thru die) with the proper swaging setup. Probably use a 44cal boolit for a core. Anyone tried this?

[Red River Rick]

Rockrat:

I've been playing with that idea for a while now and come to a few conclusions of my own.

I tried running the un-annealed .45 ACP cases thru a 0.456 swaging die, and they passed thru like butter. I opted to deprime and clean the cases before hand, and I don't like the idea of leaving the spent primer intact. Problem is I don't think that the rim of the case is going to help with the aerodynamics of the bullet either, I could be totally wrong here, but that's my opinion.

So I machined off some of the material at the back of the case, just enough to remove the primer pocket, and no more. Now with the primer pocket gone, the case looks more like a jacket.

Here's a few pics of those now machined cases:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/Swaging/BrassJackets002x.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/Swaging/BrassJackets001x.jpg

The real reason behind all of this was to see what kind of "uniformity" I could get after machining the cases. I grabbed 11 cases, 7 were WCC, and the other 4 were TZZ. After machining the primer pocket off, I weighed each case and was pretty suprised at the result.

Here's what the WCC cases weighed after machining:

49.9
50.1
49.2
49.7
49.7
49.6
49.8

Out of the 7 cases, the average weight was 49.71 grains. Not a bad average and not much deviation amongst the cases.

The one thing with bullet swaging is consistancy. Everything has to weigh the same, all the core must weigh the same, all the jackets must weigh the same, the same amount of force should be applied for each operation and so forth.

Back to your question, "will they work", sure they will. With proper tooling you can do anything. The use of brass cases for jackets will undoubtedly be a real money saver for those who swage. And the possibilities are limited only to your imagination.

Just my thoughts, FWIW.

RRR

[seabat0603]

I'm just wondering, are you guys married? To a woman I mean. It seems that you have an awful lot of free time to do all that there think'in.

[rockrat]

I am married to the most wonderful woman. As long as she is warm, loved, decent food and clothes and the car works, she could care less what guns I buy and lets me "play" in the shop when I feel the need. Course, I work at home, and when she goes to work (part time), thats when I usually go out to the shop.

[BT Sniper]

Rick,

Awesome! Curious what was the weight varaition before you turned down the heads. Wish I had a lathe. Aerodinamics, I have thought about too with the rim still on. Nicely done, Cool pics.

Good shooting,

Brian

[Red River Rick]

I've been married for over 30 years to wonderful women as well. I guess after that amount of time, whatever I do, doesn't really matter. My wife works full-time, so when she's not around, I play in the shop. Actually, even when she is home, I still play in the shop. Life is good.

RRR

[Red River Rick]

Brian:

The weight of the cases, before removing the rim and primer pocket was very consistant as well. Since the cases were once fired only, and had not been trimmed or loaded previously, they held a constant weight. I don't know if this would apply to all manufacturers cases, but the WCC cases were pretty good.

RRR

[rockrat]

Wonder how it would work if you just turned the rim off. Kind of a boattail bullet.

[Red River Rick]

Wonder how it would work if you just turned the rim off. Kind of a boattail bullet.

That would probably work well. You would need a base punch that closely matches the "Taper" left on the base of the case after machining. Otherwise, when seating the core or forming the ogive, the base will be swaged flat. You'll need to support the existing base.

Another possibility to explore further.

RRR

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I bought my wife a Jaguar XK-8 convertible. She let me go to Africa buffalo hunting, and pretty much do what I want.

Rich
Buff Killer

[BT Sniper]

Rick,

How did you get your cases and primer pocket so clean?

[BT Sniper]

Any pics of a .457 finished bullet from a pistol case? What kind of weight would you shoot threw a 45-70?

[docone31]

How is the brass against the bore? It is harder than copper.
A lot of work, but, you never know down the road.

[Red River Rick]

Rick,

How did you get your cases and primer pocket so clean?

Ceramic media, it's the only way to go.

After some hesitation, and some convincing by Montana Charlie, I took the plunge and bought some, and never looked back. As a matter of fact, I threw away all of my corn-cob and walnut polishing media.

Tumbling time will depend on how dirty the brass is. The cases pictured in the previous post were "range" brass that was extremely tarnished, the cases were actually black.

I put about 300 cases into my tumbler barrel, added enough ceramic media to cover the brass, water (enough to cover) and some mild dish soap. Let tumble for eight hours, strain, rinse and your done.

No vibrating polisher using corn-cob or walnut will clean as well as the ceramic media.

I found that my BP cases came out as clean and bright as the day they were made, inside as well as the outside.

Ceramic is the only way to go.

RRR

[Red River Rick]

How is the brass against the bore? It is harder than copper.
A lot of work, but, you never know down the road.

What is brass made from?

The same two materials we've been pushing down our barrels for years. So, I don't see it being a problem.

RRR

[BT Sniper]

Have had no problem cleaning bore and have fired a couple hundred 44's down the tube.

Thanks Rick, There is alot of different ceramic media out there. I got some and use the same technique but mine was a lee brand and said it was for appling moly coat to bullets. If I leave it in to long it starts to coat the bullets with the dirty film.

So exactly what kind of media did you use? Oh yeh, I used mine in a vibrating poliser rather than tumbler. Tumblers are $$$ any recamendations?

[Red River Rick]

So exactly what kind of media did you use? Oh yeh, I used mine in a vibrating poliser rather than tumbler. Tumblers are $$$ any recamendations?

I used Non-Abrasive 5/32" x 5/16" media, available from Kingsley North, Inc., (www.kingsleynorth.com). Price is reasonable, $16.00 for 5 lbs.

And for the tumbler, I have a Thumbler Tumbler model AR-6. They do have larger capacity tumblers, which would be better, but the AR-6 works good enough for my needs.

RRR

[BT Sniper]

Did alittle experimenting today. Turned off the rim to match the shape of the end of the case. Don't actually have .457 dies yet but was able to reduce the case and rim in my 44 dies. Was easy like Rick said. With no core yet I just seated a 270 grain .429 bullet in the jacket. Smoothed it up alittle in the drill press and now have a 350 grain bullet. Not shootable yet but a fun idea.

Rick how long would you guess it would take to turn down 100 cases like you did?

[Red River Rick]

BT Sniper:

It shouldn't take more than 1/2 - 3/4 of an hour, or less than that to do 100 cases. If you set up your lathe with a stop inside the spindle, it'll go fast.

I was also thinking of making a set of soft jaws for my Kurt vice, machining a bunch of pockets to hold about 10 rounds at a time and then do them on my CNC mill. Then you could probably spit them out really fast. It would take longer to load and unload than it would to machine the bases off.

RRR

[wonderwolf]

I boat tailed a bunch of 30/06 cases and 45acp cases for this use about a year ago in my lathe. Pushed them all through a .458 sizer. Some before annealing and some after annealing. I'm waiting on a swage die set for .458 to wonder my way.

FYI, The guy who invented the 450 and 50 Alaskan made brush buster slugs using 45acp cases for jackets if I recall correctly. For the 50 Alaskan he used a 50 BMG bullet cut in half and inverted. boat tail first which was pure hell on game.

Going off a tired memory from a hard day of studying and working Bullet jacket material is 90% copper 10% zinc and "cartridge brass" as its known in the industry is 70% copper 30%zinc...something like that I THINK. Its in one of my books back at my apartment but I'm not there right now.

[BT Sniper]

"Going off a tired memory from a hard day of studying and working Bullet jacket material is 90% copper 10% zinc and "cartridge brass" as its known in the industry is 70% copper 30%zinc "

What effect does this imply? I would guess because of the extra zinc it is harder? Any data on barrel ware or fouling. Good or bad? What about copper tubing's zink content?

Thanks Wolf

[MIBULLETS]

Hey Brian,

Most bullet jackets are 95% copper 5% zinc (guilding metal) or 90% copper 10% zinc. Most cartridge brass is about 70% copper 30% zinc. If you read Corbin's info on 22 bullets from 22 rimfire brass, he talks about brass being a little harder but zinc is more slippery. I don't think wear would be alot different. There are people out there using light steel for jackets.

Copper tubbing is about pure copper maybe 99.9%

Dan

[Pete D.]

About that question - a bullet in .457 from pistol brass? Not from pistol brass but here's a link to a thread back in January with a pic of one made from cut off .30-06 brass. Just a proof of concept idea, not nearly as pretty as the cases in this thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=44510
Pete

[rockrat]

Yup. Just size the case down , casehead and all. 45acp and 30-06 share the same head dia. Should be simple. If I can make bullets for my 37-72 out of 9mm luger cases, there should not be any problem using acp cases for 45cal rifles

[Pete D.]

Just size the case down , casehead and all.
Y'know, I tried that. Annealed the case head and used a Rockchucker press. I could not get the cases to size; they just would not go through the sizing ring.
That's why I turned them down on the lathe.
Pete

[BT Sniper]

It seems to me the thickness of the web and thickness of the rim is less on the 45 ACP even though the dia is the same as the 30-06. May have somthing to do with rated pressures of the different cases. I did easily push the unannealed 45 ACP through a 44 AMP sizing die and came out at .459 or so.

[Pete D.]

I'll have to give that a go. Kinda have a few .45 ACP cases lying around.
Pete

[1950Target]

Man thems is some spiffy looking boolits, I like the boat tail.

Looking at the first "jackets"you made made me think of the HORNADY 100 gr.308 HALF-JACKET. Years ago, late 50s early 60s they made a 300 gr. .458 identical in design for .45-70, a 400 gr version in .458 for the .45-70 with your jackets made with the primer pocket removed would be an interesting play toy and probably a much better than fair to middlin soft skin big game boolit!

GREAT IDEA!

EDITED TO ADD: There are a BUNCH of .308 shooters out there and tons of .308 BERDAN cases just waiting to have their rims turned off and made into homemade BAR medicine for all those .45-70s lookin fer BAR!

FREE JACKET MATERIAL?

[BT Sniper]

1950,

Are you offering or can track down the dead brass? I'm interested.

[1950Target]

1950,

Are you offering or can track down the dead brass? I'm interested.

I only personally have one possible source. A nephe ith a G#. I'm an FAL shooter and old habits die hard and I have been handloading since I was 9, I'm 52 no and I am proud to say I have never spent a single penny on berdan brassed ammo.

But there are a lot of forums out there, I', a member at FALDILES andthe vast majority of the .308 available today is BERDAN and most of the new boxer is $1.00/rd+

So no it was just a tip, I hadn't thought of a use for this brass before joing this foruma couple of days ago and seeing this thread.

There are FAL, M14, G3, and AR10 forums. I wish I was set up to swage, I don't right now, and I don't have a machine shop but I've alays wanted to learn machininhg and build a small shop to work on variou and sundry projects.

Some ads on those forums offering to pay for shipping might bring some action?

EDITED TO ADD: There are also TONS of 7.62X39 Berdan out there, there is just so much of that that is steel! That I'd be afraid to ask for that unless I specified Bras only and asked if they would check the cases with a magnet first.

There are also a lot of 8mm shooters out there, the latest on the market is ROMANIAN which is no good because it is lacqured steel. But there is still alot of Checz 70's stuff that is real good clean ammo and is berdan brass. hat about .30 Carbine Berdan brass for making .35 REM .35 WHELEN etc? I think there is a world of possibilities out there with berdan brass, I've always liked the idea since I read Dave Corbins article years ago about the rimfire brass. Was that originally published in HANDLOADER?

I started casting BOOLITS when I was 11 and kept it up until I was 23 and graduated college, got a job and joined the real world. I have a great collection of MOULDS mostly Ideal a few Lyman and a handful of original LBT. Mostly .40 and up, only a handful of ML and .32 and .38 & 9mm moulds, I haven't cast in years and I still have a ton or two sized and boxed and another ton r 2 cast but neer sized lubed and boxed, that's how much I used to cast and I shoot a lot. I've always handloaded and really ant to start swaging. I really like the REMINGTON GOLDEN SABRES and they have brass jackets. I think annealing is important as the velocity gores up more for controling and insuring proper expansion rather than a barrel wear issue. If that is bothersome there is always MOLY to coat the brass jackets with. Me it doesn't bother at all, I shoot A LOT and I have a WII vintage Carbine that I've put more than 35,00 rounds through and the barrel shows almost no wear and it is still accurate as it was when I got it at 16 years of age. I'm not melting down any barrels!

[BT Sniper]

Good to know. Welcome to the sight. My story is simular, only factory ammo I have bought is 22lr. Now I may never buy a factory bullet.

Keep an I and ear open for unwanted brass.

Swaging doesn't cost that much. I'm into it about $300-$400 no more and have made alot of bullets. Got to say it is chalenging at times and very rewarding when everything works out.

Good shooting,

Brian

[1950Target]

I'm going to the range tomorrow, its a public range and I often find G# Brass there, I'll check and see if there is anything in the trash barrels,

A few years ago there was about a half a 55 gallon drum of G3 fired Radway Green but it was Berdan, so I left it.

[BT Sniper]

Cool,

Not many cases out there that can't be turned into some kind of bullet. Hold on to them all.

Good shooting, It's snowing here:(

[luober]

to ceramic media users:

how do you get the ceramic media out of the cases after you tumble them? do you uses a rotating basket like the dillon setup or possibly a shaker screen? what type of soap do you put in the tumbler? will the ceramic media remove the tarnish put on the brass cases after you anneal them?

thanks

[spurrit]

Ceramic media, it's the only way to go.

After some hesitation, and some convincing by Montana Charlie, I took the plunge and bought some, and never looked back. As a matter of fact, I threw away all of my corn-cob and walnut polishing media.

Tumbling time will depend on how dirty the brass is. The cases pictured in the previous post were "range" brass that was extremely tarnished, the cases were actually black.

I put about 300 cases into my tumbler barrel, added enough ceramic media to cover the brass, water (enough to cover) and some mild dish soap. Let tumble for eight hours, strain, rinse and your done.

No vibrating polisher using corn-cob or walnut will clean as well as the ceramic media.

I found that my BP cases came out as clean and bright as the day they were made, inside as well as the outside.

Ceramic is the only way to go.

RRR


I've asked around locally, and only got blank stares. Folks on the 'net told me I'd get reduced case life. Molon labe! Where can I get ceramic media?