Ill effects of mag. pistol primers?

[the_ursus]

Is there any reason why I shouldn't stick with my magnum pistol primers for plinking loads? I'll be using a .44mag, 265 cast, and a light charge of unique.

[44man]

You do not need them! I don't use them with 296 in the .44 or .45.
With fast powder, there is even less reason to use them.
I think you will see accuracy increase a whole bunch if you get away from them. Just because the case says "magnum" does not mean you need mag primers.
I think they have too much pressure for the .44 and .45 Colt.
I use the Fed 150 primer but the WW LP works OK too.

[the_ursus]

Hmm, interesting. Just goes to show that because it's the way I've always done it doesn't mean it the right way.
So should I assume the same holds true when I switch back to heavy jacketed/H-110 loads?

[IcerUSA]

I would try both and see what you get , I only use WW or CCI LP primers, no mag at all .

Keith

[high standard 40]

Both 296 and H-110 are hard to ignite. Mag primers have always been suggested along with a tight bullet pull to assure good, consistent ignition. That's not to say that you can't use standard primers but accuracy can suffer. Then I guess it depends on what you are willing to accept in the accuracy department.

I have also seen it written in several publications that even Unique will give better accuracy with magnum primers in the 44 Mag. I use Magnum primers in all my 44 mag loads. Why would I not since I can buy them for the same price as standard primers. One less thing to worry about.

Charlie........

[44man]

Both 296 and H-110 are hard to ignite. Mag primers have always been suggested along with a tight bullet pull to assure good, consistent ignition. That's not to say that you can't use standard primers but accuracy can suffer. Then I guess it depends on what you are willing to accept in the accuracy department.

I have also seen it written in several publications that even Unique will give better accuracy with magnum primers in the 44 Mag. I use Magnum primers in all my 44 mag loads. Why would I not since I can buy them for the same price as standard primers. One less thing to worry about.

Charlie........
Not so, my groups triple with Mag primers in the .44 with ANY powder. Hundreds of thousands of 296 loads since the powder came out and have been shooting the .44 since 1956. I only tried mag primers at the start because the books said so.
If I make a mistake and seat some mag primers, I will punch them out and throw them away. Years of IHMSA shooting and many trophy's, with not a single mag primer proved me right.
I have shot thousands of 1/2" or less groups at 50 meters with the pile of .44's I have owned from S&W to Ruger and none has ever seen a mag primer since I got away from them.
If you shoot in sub zero weather, then you MIGHT need them.
Do your own testing and never believe what the gun writers say. I have not seen a one of them shoot anything past 25 yd's and most use a Ransom rest for pathetic groups.
I shoot revolvers to 500 meters, would I lie about it? :Fire:
Use proper case tension and H110 and 296 will ignite perfectly.

[the_ursus]

I plan on testing this weekend with both primers. Thanks for all the input so far.

[snaggdit]

Wow 44Man, you must be a rock of steadiness. Decaf I expect. I hope to one day be even close to your groups at 25 meters...

[high standard 40]

44MAN
I too have shot IHMSA for years and have shot revolvers at 500m. My brother & I have used Mag primers with the 44 and 357 with 296 from the beginning. He has many 40x40s using mag primers. I have seen him shoot a 3" group at 200 meters with iron sights using them. I guess not everybody gets the same results. For years we had other people tell us that 296 was not accurate in any gun while my brother kept cranking out the 40s. Obviously, your mileage may vary. I have also seen that confidence in your combination and mean a lot and a lack of confidence can corrupt your results. If you don't think something will work, it won't.
Best course of action is to use what works for you.

Charlie..........

[technetium-99m]

I've actually found smaller deviation over the chrony using CCI350's than with CCI300's in 45acp. I like magnum primers a lot and they usually cost about the same as the others. Plus, at least here in Oklahoma no one else uses them, so they are still readily available.

GT

[44man]

44MAN
I too have shot IHMSA for years and have shot revolvers at 500m. My brother & I have used Mag primers with the 44 and 357 with 296 from the beginning. He has many 40x40s using mag primers. I have seen him shoot a 3" group at 200 meters with iron sights using them. I guess not everybody gets the same results. For years we had other people tell us that 296 was not accurate in any gun while my brother kept cranking out the 40s. Obviously, your mileage may vary. I have also seen that confidence in your combination and mean a lot and a lack of confidence can corrupt your results. If you don't think something will work, it won't.
Best course of action is to use what works for you.

Charlie..........
Every time I buy a new mold or make a new mold, I test primers, working loads for each. I have never had mag primers group as good. I usually mount a scope to test but use a red dot for hunting. Hard to shoot tight groups with a red dot.
Since 296 is supposed to be almost useless in the cold, I went down to shoot when it was below zero. The only boolits I had were the Lee 310 gr. They hold about an inch at 50 most of the time. I had the red dot on the Ruger. It was bitter cold with the wind and I let the ammo cold soak. And no, I don't shoot different if I think something doesn't work, it is not a mental game.
Anyway this is one the groups I shot. The rest were the same. Each load was tailored for the best groups with each primer from previous testing. This has been typical with the mag primer for me since around 1960. Three SBH's, a SRH and 7 S&W's all showed the same results. All of my friends use the same Fed 150 primers in their .44's and all shoot tight groups. My friends new SBH Hunter was shooting 1/2" groups at 50 right out of the box after I did the trigger.
I ALWAYS tell guys to test each primer for themselves because some guys do get different results. If you use H110, 296 or another ball powder, you need to test. For any other powder I would never use a mag primer.

[44man]

I went down to test drop at 200 yd's with my 330 gr boolit. I was sighted for 75 with the red dot. I just shot 3 so I could measure.
Now this SBH has over 59,000 rounds through it.
The SRH I had would hit pop cans at 200 yd's.
Anyway, I don't make any excuses for using standard primers.

[Recluse]

Do your own testing and never believe what the gun writers say. I have not seen a one of them shoot anything past 25 yd's and most use a Ransom rest for pathetic groups.
I shoot revolvers to 500 meters, would I lie about it? :Fire:
Use proper case tension and H110 and 296 will ignite perfectly.

Can I get an "Amen!" for the bolded part up above?

Gun writers talking about groups are like scientists talking about cancer in white mice.

I test ALL of my rounds by shooting handheld at usually between 35' and 50' depending upon gun, caliber, load, purpose, yada. Don't anticipate that if I need to dust a home invader in the middle of the night that I'll be setting up a ransom rest to help with the aim. Likewise when I go out to shoot some steel, I can never find a ransom rest. . . :confused:

Far as magnum primers go, I agree with you when it comes to .44. . . Magnum primers seem to open up my groups a bit, be they with boolits or j-bullets.

Now, with my .357 Magnum, just the opposite--magnum primers with 158 gr Hornady XTP bullets and some W231 give me other-worldly accuracy out of my 686. Makes one uber-ultra fantastic big-pig hunting round. Regular primers give me good groups, the magnum primers give me excellent groups. But with boolits, again, the regular primers combined with Unique or Blue Dot or even 2400 (which gives me my best .357 groups) do me better.

I've often said that reloading is where art meets science, but the results are still dependent upon ability to shoot. Thus, you can customize your loads to your gun to your shooting. It's just about finding the right variables, then combining them into formulas that work best for you.

:coffee:

[44man]

Now if you want a revolver that REALLY shoots, try a BFR. I shot this can 5 times with my 45-70 at 100 yd's with my home made cast boolit. There are 5 shots through the hole in the top. It was a pain to walk down and set it back up after every shot! :Fire:
The other holes were from my friends .45 ACP rifle.
The other can was shot twice at 100 with my .475 BFR and another home made boolit.

[44man]

Oh yeah, I do use Fed 155 LP mag primers in my BFR's. :drinks:

[HeavyMetal]

Faster powders can react diferently to mag primers as well.

Case in point: used a lot of 452AA in my 45 auto for years, still do, this powder has always been very accurate. Then one day I'm holding a shotgun and don't know why??

Went nuts trying to figure out what happened to my awsome target load??

At last I realized I had purchased federal Mag primers instead of the Std federals! 452AA simply hated the Mag primers and scattered boolits all ove the place! A quick switch back to Federal Std primers and the issue went away!

I learned my lesson about sustituting primers in a known, and accurate, load!

As far as the gun writers are concerned? Trust but verify!

[Whitespider]

From the testing I've done (I spent a complete summer on unemployment and used that time testing the effects of primers on hundreds of loads, handguns and rifles), it's darn hard to beat the performance of the Federal #150 most of the time, with cartridges that use the LP primer. I'd say that 9 outa' 10 times the 150 out-performed any others tested, and when it didn't it was still in the top three.

Interestingly, the apparent "most popular" primer (the WLP) placed second in my results, but I must say it was a distant second.

In my inventory of LP primers, the Federal #150 overwhelms any other type.

[high standard 40]

I quit buying gun magazines 20 years ago. Most of the scribes in those publications are just as many stated here, 25yd heros. When I mentioned above about magnum primers being suggested I was talking about the companies that actually make the powders mentioned. Sierra and Winchester also give this advice. And I did mention that a tight bullet pull is crucial to good results. Also, not all primer manufacturers products are equal. We use CCI 350 in the 44mag and our results have been outstanding. In 1982 while involved in a shoot-off for Production Champion for our state match, I spotted for my brother as he fired his Ruger Super Blackhawk. Load was 22gr 296, Sierra 240, Win brass, CCI 350. He won the shoot-off hitting 2 out of 3 rams that were 1/5 scale and the single miss was by less than 1". This with iron sights. Windage variation was less than an inch and elevation spread was about 2 1/2". This performance was not the exception but the rule for this load combination. I never said that others could not get good results with other combinations of components. I do know that Magnum primers work great for me in all my 357s and 44s. I don't use them in my other handguns. As I said earlier, use what works for you and I will do the same.

[44man]

Recoil does not bother me and from the bench I have perfect trigger control, can't say the same off hand for every shot. [smilie=1:
My limiting factor is my vision and old age but the greatest joy for me is to have revolvers that will out shoot most rifles and shoot 10X better then I can shoot them without spending a dime on the guns.
When I miss I just grin because I know it was me and not my guns.
Using my boolits and loads, my friends are out shooting me and nothing makes me happier.
None of us even thinks of fooling around at 25 yd's. It is a big waste of time and components plus you learn nothing about a load or boolit.
I have told this story before but it is worth doing again.
We were at the range and a fellow asked us to stop shooting so he could put up a target. He walked out about 20 feet and stuck a huge target up. He then shot half a box of .44's at it from his SBH without a hole in the paper. I asked if I could try his gun. I put in six of my loads, added the right amount to the rear sight, laid Creedmore on top of my bench and put all six shots in a gallon milk jug at 200 yd's. He never took the sharp edge off the back of the trigger guard and when I was done, my finger was throwing blood all over.
He went away with eyes as big as saucers and a new appreciation of his revolver. I don't remember him saying another word! :mrgreen:
We drove another guy from the range when we were shooting one pop can after another from the top of the 100 yd rail and I shot a sub 1" group on paper with my single shot Witchita, 7R, 10" barrel, with open sights. His 300 mag was hard put to do 3". He took one look at my target, packed up and left.
We were shooting Creedmore and he had $1000 worth of bench supplies, an expensive rifle and a scope worth more then my gun collection! :-D
My point here is to never be happy with what your gun is doing---EVER! Do a little work and then a little more. Keep testing and don't get in a rut by reading gun magazines. All of you here are smarter then those writers are.
Get away from 25 yd's, the boolit is still in line with the bore and hasn't started to do things you won't like yet.
And LEAVE THE CHRONOGRAPH AT HOME! Tiny SD's do NOT mean accuracy. Never think about how FAST you can make your gun shoot either.
I post more pictures then anyone and have to keep deleting them so I have room to post more. I show you what can be done with very little work and no math or a pile of theories.
I don't like the guy that says he can shoot 1" groups at 100 ON DEMAND with his revolver either, it removes the fellas credibility!
Your average groups are what counts and if you get a lot of super ones it is frosting on the cake. The human element behind the revolver is tough to tame.
I don't weigh boolits, I don't prepare brass with special tools, I throw charges, I ignore all the little things discussed here all the time. When you learn to relax and not get frantic, you will be one step ahead.
I try to help but the rest is up to you. :drinks:

[high standard 40]

Ursus,
I'd like to apologize to you sir for being a part of this disscusion taking the direction that it has. What should be gleaned from all this is that there is no easy answer to your question. Your decision to do a test session with both primers is the correct course of action. Obviously based on the responses posted here, people get different results using the components in question. Do the range work, use safe loading practices, study your results and learn from it, and use what works for you.
Please let us know about your results.

Charlie.............

[44man]

I quit buying gun magazines 20 years ago. Most of the scribes in those publications are just as many stated here, 25yd heros. When I mentioned above about magnum primers being suggested I was talking about the companies that actually make the powders mentioned. Sierra and Winchester also give this advice. And I did mention that a tight bullet pull is crucial to good results. Also, not all primer manufacturers products are equal. We use CCI 350 in the 44mag and our results have been outstanding. In 1982 while involved in a shoot-off for Production Champion for our state match, I spotted for my brother as he fired his Ruger Super Blackhawk. Load was 22gr 296, Sierra 240, Win brass, CCI 350. He won the shoot-off hitting 2 out of 3 rams that were 1/5 scale and the single miss was by less than 1". This with iron sights. Windage variation was less than an inch and elevation spread was about 2 1/2". This performance was not the exception but the rule for this load combination. I never said that others could not get good results with other combinations of components. I do know that Magnum primers work great for me in all my 357s and 44s. I don't use them in my other handguns. As I said earlier, use what works for you and I will do the same.
You hit the nail right on the head! :mrgreen: Not all primers are equal. If one works, never change.
Then the .357! It needs the mag primer in most cases because the SP primer is weaker, I DO use a mag primer with the .357. The same as I use the LP mag in the .475 and 45-70.
That is why I say you must test for yourselves instead of what you read.