Another strange mixture...

[StanDahl]

Inspired by the feedback I got from so many on the “Why 6-cavity moulds for rifles” on the Group Buy forum, I took the Fat 30 out for a second try. This time I made up an alloy carefully calculated to get me the Taracorp Magnum alloy results. (It worked, in that I got a Bhn of 15.) However, this alloy behaved normally when the mould was cool, but became frosty at a low temperature (650°), and became crumbly. Sprues broke when hitting the table, and even acted like slush for a while after pouring. The long bullets were well filled out but VERY frosty, the bases tended to tear out slightly, and they sometimes chipped after dropping if they bumped each other. If I did the BruceB sprue cooling method, the mould cooled enough that the bullets came out shiny again and there was no base-tearout at all. Used in two other moulds, (311316 & 358156) the bullets came out beautifully, but very frosty, with slight tear-out of the sprue. There was no chipping on these.

Two years ago, I had a similar problem, but the alloy(?) refused to enter the mould unless it was very hot. This alloy pours well at any temp. The diagnosis previously was too much antimony. This new alloy is from entirely different materials - 13 lbs wheelweights, 3 lbs linotype and ~5 oz pure tin, which should have gotten me very close to Taracorp’s 92-6-2 ratio, depending on whose ww & lino compositions ratios I follow.

What do I have here? How could I possibly have too much antimony from a 50+ pound batch of wheelweights and a several hundred pound batch of printers linotype? Any ideas?? Stan

[StanDahl]

Well, I didn't realize I was playin' Stump The Forum'....four days and no hits, looks like ... I WON!!!

What I won is, a batch of oddball alloy. I've already added lino to it and it worked better, but it didn't work too badly as it was, just strangely. At least it didn't work badly with short bullets. I measured the batch of 358156's that were done the BruceB way, and they were some of the most consistant bullets I've ever cast. The frosty ones aren't as consistant, probably due to the minor tearout of the bases. All of them are overly large, and made the 311316 actually cast up to 32-20 diameter for once. I'll have to make some more to fatten up my 314299 that acts like a 311299. Stan

[Bass Ackward]

Stan,

What you have is obviously contaminated. But from what? How sure are you of the the lino sourse? I played around with a batch once that was plussed up with a babbit that had some aluminum in it that acted as you described. But that is just a guess.

If it is, you are going to have more trouble shooting it than making it. If the stuff is that brittle that the bullets chip when clinked against one another, then rifling is going to play hell with it. Before I spent a lot of time making bullets with it, I would shoot some and see what happens. You might even do some impact work if that matters to you just to see how it holds up.

What you run up against in these cases, is it worth adding more material to remove what ever undesirable trait you don't like? The answer is usually no, but it may work for some applications that don't require obturation to the point it breaks up. Is it or will it act abrasive in your bore? What kind of pressure does it throw? So I would try light loads in everything at first just to be safe until you gain confidence in it.

[StanDahl]

Bass, I just realized that I hadn't mentioned before that I had been using this alloy with BullPlate lube, which allowed it to be dumped very early, and apparently the alloy wasn't up to the task. Holding it in the mould longer or using the sprue-cooling technique tamed the alloy and it cast more normally that way.

Aluminum? Hmmm...the Lyman book says that aluminum contamination causes the clogging of the orifice of the pot and also interferes with castablility. My alloy didn't seem to have that problem. Since the original post, BullShop confirmed somewhat similar results, but dealt with them by slowing the casting process.

The bullets aren't brittle after cooling, only when dropped from the mould too early, and only the Fat 30's showed this tendency. The bullets were dropped before the sprue had hardened, too early, obviously. The now-cooled bullets seem fine, I took one and put it in a vise and hammered on it - it bent over nearly 90°before breaking in two. The interior was granular, about like the frost on the outside. I'm not at all worried about them shattering upon firing.

The lino came from a local print shop and I've used it before and it behaves well. The tin is from Art Green, and he said it was pure, I'm pretty sure I've used it before. The wheelweights are from a local tire shop, and this batch has also been used with success, but with the BruceB method, not with the BullPlate lube method.

[Bass Ackward]

Aluminum? Hmmm...the Lyman book says that aluminum contamination causes the clogging of the orifice of the pot and also interferes with castablility. My alloy didn't seem to have that problem. Since the original post, BullShop confirmed somewhat similar results, but dealt with them by slowing the casting process.

Stan,

True. So does everything else too. Even god lead will eventualy slow things down if you don't clean the spout. I myself have tried to work around stuff enough to where you get very acceptable looking bullets. Even with some zinc. I would not do it again if I had a choice.

Glad you discovered your problem. And I am SOOOOOOO glad that I spilled my bottle of that contaminated Bullplate lube so I didn't have to go through that problem too. :grin:

[44man]

I will never understand what the need for speed is when casting. It takes a certain amount of time for the lead to harden and just quick cooling the top of the sprue will not harden the lead at the cutting edge. I use two moulds and never have the problem because the first will be perfect to cut the sprue after I pour the second one. You will know when it is correct when the sprue doesn't break free with the first tap on the plate. It should take many light taps to cut the lead. The hotter the lead, the longer the wait.
Lead that is not hard enough also leaves smears on the top of the mould and under the plate. SLOW DOWN.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Stan, could it be that your alloy is hotter than the 650 you think? Is your temperature indication from a thermometer or from pot setting? (That's an easier guess for me to make than what your alloy may be!) Maybe you even have two problems.

[Bullshop]

[QUOTE=44man]QUOTE]
Lead that is not hard enough also leaves smears on the top of the mould and under the plate. SLOW DOWN***

Well mabey that used to be true but not any more. Bull Plate has changed that, and apparently you havn't tried any.
Fast is frosty and frosty is good.
BIC/BS

[44man]

I haven't tried it yet, still using mould prep. I never get any lead on my moulds because of my casting pace. I can get frosty boolits by turning up the heat a little. I just don't like the sprue breaking off and leaving divots in the base. I would rather cut it.
On top of that, my home made moulds have thick plates that fit so perfect to the tops of my moulds that I don't need anything at all on them. I can crank them down tight and will not get any galling on the metal at all, although I just make the plates snug, just enough that they don't swing free.
Cutting a sprue too early can also put a side force on the still dead soft boolit. Not my idea of good casting technique. I would rather cast 50 boolits less in a given time and have better ones for the effort.
All of you have seen my groups, can you deny I am right?

[StarMetal]

Yeah me...you saw the way my 45LC shoots and I don't cast like you.

Joe[smilie=l:

[9.3X62AL]

Graciously stated, Joe.

I cast using the same regimen the 44 Man described above, two molds at a time--letting one set up while filling the other, and alternating as I go.

There is ALWAYS more than one way to go at a problem, and one feature of this board is getting a number of answers and resolutions from a wide array of experiences.

[44man]

No pissing match Joe! My only limitation on group size is ME and my vision. I know my boolits shoot better then I can see the targets. And that is with every one of my handguns.

[StarMetal]

44man

Oh darn, no pissing match I've been drinking beer too :drinks: too make sure I had enough to whiz....gosh. :kidding: Honestly though guys, I really do some of me reloading crummy sometimes and still get excellent result. Now take that 45 LC I cast fast because I don't like my sprueplate to cut off the sprue I like it to rip it out. I feel that little pocket it leaves, being centered and so small and at the extreme rear of the bullet, has no effect on it in flight. On the other hand, sometimes when you cut them, alot really, it leaves a raised lump. Now on flat bases and in revolvers I reckon that is ok. But in gaschecked rifles it's not because the gascheck doesn't fit flush and flat. Thus my reason.

Joe

[StanDahl]

Stan, could it be that your alloy is hotter than the 650 you think? Is your temperature indication from a thermometer or from pot setting? (That's an easier guess for me to make than what your alloy may be!) Maybe you even have two problems.

The temp was measured with a thermometer. Sometimes it rides up out of the melt and gets a low reading, but I know better now and push it back in before taking the reading seriously.

I used this ww alloy again this weekend with less lino and didn't have any problems, but then again, I used the BruceB technique with all moulds this time. I also had to let the melt get real hot for better results because I wasn't using BullShop lube. I got my new used 311466 with its five and a half lube grooves to cast excellent bullets with this alloy (7:1 ww to lino, Bhn 14 on my Gussy lead tester.)

As for speed, since I don't use many 6 cavity moulds, I'd like to make the most of my 1 and 2 cavity moulds. I used two single cavity moulds this weekend, the 311446 and a 358429 Ideal. Both cast very nicely with the sprue cooling technique, very low weight spread. Stan

[crazy mark]

I do know if I cast too fast I will have problems with bands tearing, bases chipping and sprues tearing. I sometimes cast with 3 moulds if I am doing heavy 44 and 45 boolits. Lowering the temperature of the mould gets me back to nice bullets that may be slightly frosty but not easily falling apart. I find heat of the mould is usually my problem. Either too hot or too cold. Mark

[John Boy]

The temp was measured with a thermometer. Sometimes it rides up out of the melt and gets a low reading, ...
Stan: IMHO, the thermometer was not deep enough into your melt and it was actually in the 820-860*F range. This is the temp usually when frosting happens and the base is slushy when you cut the sprue.

Don't know the make of your thermometer, but on the Tel-Tru ones (believe Lyman buys theirs from them too) there is a band on the stem. This band must be in the melt ( preferably in the middle of the melt ) otherwise you will see a false low temperature reading

[44man]

Joe, if you get a lump on the base of a boolit, you have two problems. The sprue plate is too loose and the cutting edge is not sharp. If the sprue plate must be kept loose to prevent mould damage, it should be fixed. I don't like a sprue plate so loose that it swings by it's own weight. You should have to push it back and forth.
You are only showing poor casting knowledge.

[44man]

Joe, here are some of my home made moulds. The sprue plates are kept tight. Other then some shine on the mould prep, do you see any lead smears or damage?

[carpetman]

I cast with atleast three molds at a time. Fill em fast and toss them high in the air and fill the next after I catch it while it is falling. Juggling if you will.

[Scrounger]

I cast with atleast three molds at a time. Fill em fast and toss them high in the air and fill the next after I catch it while it is falling. Juggling if you will.

You're just asking for a serious accident, Ray. Remember when you were juggling cats and sheep and got them mixed up for a moment? That cat is probably still screaming and dragging his butt across the linoleum... :wink:

[44man]

I can picture carpetman now. Maybe thats why he has that handle, needs a carpet because all of his hair is burned off. Thanks carpetman, great to get a good laugh!

[Slowpoke]

I cast with atleast three molds at a time. Fill em fast and toss them high in the air and fill the next after I catch it while it is falling. Juggling if you will.

Do you wear gloves?

[carpetman]

Slowpoke---No don't wear gloves. Thats a big part of the secret. Not wearing gloves makes you throw them higher and faster. Don't throw them high enough you cant fill a mold before it falls. Now I will admit,wearing hipboots might help as stuff does get pretty deep.

[StarMetal]

Geez 44man....you said " You are only showing poor casting knowledge."

That does it...grrrrrrrrr.....My casting knowledge is so bad is why I outshoot you at 100 yards with an iron sighted 45 LC Smith..with my bad knowledge cast bullets. God, all I have to say is must wheel your balls around in a Ford F150 they are so big.

Call my buddy Mike in Tulsa, he'll straighten your ass out about my knowledge and shooting.

Hey Buckshot, move over, 44man is Guru of the silver stream now.

And there isn't going to be no yanking chain icon here either cause I'm not kidding. As they say down south 44man "You ain't right" and if you don't understand it doesn't mean as right in right and wrong.

Joe

[44man]

Hoo-Ha, joe, can't take it can ya. What single thing that I said was wrong?

[StarMetal]

Don't bother me 44man, I outshot you with iron sights at 100 yards and you know it. With poorly cast bullets and bad knowledge.

Joe

[454PB]

I control casting rate, lead, and mould temperature by touching the bottom of the mould on a wet sponge as needed.

[waksupi]

You guys were playing nice, for awhile. Behave yourselves.

[44man]

Hee Hee, I didn't cuss! Joe is OK, just a little excitable. I still like him.

[StarMetal]

Where did I cuss? Cuss is goddamn, bastard, son of a bitch, F**k, etc. Balls and ass aren't cussing.

I'm not mad, heck if anyone seems exciteable it's Waksupi, at keeping the peace. Wak shall be known from now on as Marshall Waksupi. [smilie=l:

Joe

[44man]

Let's face the facts Joe. If it wasn't for you and me, this would be a dull place to visit!
I go to Shootersville and there might not be a post for a week. Can't post a picture on Accurate reloading. We have it real nice here.
Now, let's see, what else can we squabble about? I'll think of something.
How about home brewed beer? Ever make any?

[StarMetal]

44man

You're bothering me again. [smilie=l: In fact I have made home brew beer. I came out pretty good and tasted darn good too, BUT I came to the conclusion that: it wasn't worth the wait, the time, or the expense. Hell you can buy just as good and if not better commercial beer. Not that I buy or drink it Samuel Adams covers a pretty wide exspance of different types of beer incase someone chimes in and says "but with a homebrew you can make anykind of beer your prefer". That's not exactly true of homebrew either as you can only make a beer that ferments at room temperature. Some other beers require entirely different techniques and equipment.

Joe

[waksupi]

Joe, can't I play too?

[StarMetal]

Ric,

You still got that double holster Roy Rogers rig? If so, ah, I guess you can play. Come on over and ride that new Roadmaster bicycle of yours, I want to try it out.

Joe

[44man]

Damn, now you have to bring back old memories too! Makes me feel REAL old.