headspacing

[klw]

I have a 8mm Lebel Mannlicher Berthier that seems to be in excellent condition. I just bought a CH field gage to check its headspace. The action closes on the field gage indicating that the headspacing is off. But rather than have a gunsmith reset the barrel couldn't I just alter the reloading dies to reset the shoulder?

[JCherry]

KLW

You can do what you propose by backing your die out of your loading press a turn or two so as to just neck size and not push the shoulder back. Then your cases would headspace on the shoulder.

Your first shot with a new cartridge should be loaded with a bullet that positively engages the rifleing in such a manner to be sure that the rimmed head of your case is against the bolt head.


Have Fun,

JCherry

[Wayne Smith]

Woh! A rimmed round that doesn't headspace on the rim? I have no books in front of me to check.

[Ricochet]

That's what I'd do.

[klw]

Know a gunsmith that could fix the headspacing problem?

[Ricochet]

BTW, how much force did you use closing it? A headspace gauge passes when it causes a mild resistance. You can easily force a bolt closed over one that doesn't fit. Usually you remove the extractor and firing pin spring so it's easier to feel when the gauge makes contact.

[sundog]

Well, kinda the same idea as using the shoulder to set the head space on belted magnums instead of the belt. Sorta the same thing, too, as dealing with the SMLE, allowing the shoulder to remain set forward, and that's a rimmed case, too. If I were going to try it, I might leave a VERY light coat of oil on the case for fire forming -- very light.

[klw]

BTW, how much force did you use closing it? A headspace gauge passes when it causes a mild resistance. You can easily force a bolt closed over one that doesn't fit. Usually you remove the extractor and firing pin spring so it's easier to feel when the gauge makes contact.

Didn't really follow that. I can close the bolt. There is some resistance from the field gage but not much.

[joeb33050]

6.7 HEADSPACE AND RIMMED CARTRIDGES

With an empty cartridge case in the chamber the breech block should not have any looseness; it shouldn’t move at all when you grab it and try to move it back and forth. A loose breech block means excess headspace and poor ignition-we would expect vertical stringing of shots on the target.




If you are unable to get a rifle with a loose breech block to shoot well, there is an easy way to test if the looseness/excess headspace is the culprit. Peen the outside edge of the case rim forward, effectively making the rim thicker. Put the case in a sizing die, hold the die in your hand, and lightly tap all around the outside rim of the case with a steel hammer. You just want to move enough rim brass forward to tighten up the fit. Try the case frequently in the rifle. If you don’t have a sizing die, just hold the case in your hand and tap the rim with the hammer.
Shoot the rifle with this case. If the accuracy improves, either make and use more of these cases or have a competent gunsmith correct the breech block fit.

This is how the SS guys taught me to fix the problem and it worked for me. Sometimes a thin washer will work. Anything is better than sending the gun to a gunsmith and waiting, and waiting, and waiting..........
The article with picture is too big to be attached, but is in UPDATES on the book site.
"Cast Bullets For Beginner And Expert", Second Edition, can be found and read online at: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/
The book is in "FILES", the Table Of Contents is in "The Beginning"

[Pat I.]

Like JCherry said above just back your die out and let it headspace on the shoulder.

[Ricochet]

If you felt ANY added closing resistance with the Field gauge in place, it passed.

[Phil]

ANY RESISTANCE means the rifle WILL NOT accept the gauge. The bolt has to be disassembled to do a headspace check correctly.

Phil

[mike in co]

before doing any of the above,why did the bolt close on the field ?

lugs set back on the reciever, on the bolt ?

what do you plan on shooting ..lite cast boolit or full loads with fmj's ???

lots more to consider.....

mike in co

[Bret4207]

I have several rifles I've used "long" brass in. For me it worked best using a "fireforming" load and getting a good full sized example of the cartridge as fired. Then I used back magic marker on the neck/shoulder and just kept setting the die down until I had what I thought was nearly a full necksizing done while not touching the shoulder. If the round chambered easily at that point I tried loaded orunds and called it good.

With lug set back you'll feel it if you hold the bolt handle back as you open the action. You can feel the lugs slide out of the slight set back if there is any.

I would also wonder if your rifle has a generous but "standard" chamber.

[klw]

I have several rifles I've used "long" brass in. For me it worked best using a "fireforming" load and getting a good full sized example of the cartridge as fired. Then I used back magic marker on the neck/shoulder and just kept setting the die down until I had what I thought was nearly a full necksizing done while not touching the shoulder. If the round chambered easily at that point I tried loaded orunds and called it good.

With lug set back you'll feel it if you hold the bolt handle back as you open the action. You can feel the lugs slide out of the slight set back if there is any.

I would also wonder if your rifle has a generous but "standard" chamber.

Plan on using light cast bullet loads. The little shooting I've done with it, however, has run through a lot of brass, almost one case per shot. I think I'll load up some dummy rounds, powder charge but no bullet, only a wad of some sort. See if I can use that to move the shoulder a bit forward.

[KCSO]

First put your finger between the headband and your head... Uh sorry wrong headspace.
First off The Berthier are a lot like the Enfield in that wartime standards are pretty loose. 10-12 thou was still in spec during WWI so don't expect modern headsace gauges to be a big help. If you don't want to simply size the case to headspace on the shoulder you can cure your problems rather easily by having a shim soldered to the face of the bolt with Hi Force 44 solder. The temprature needed to solder on the shim won't alter the temper of the bolt and the last time I checked a bolt so altered has lasted over 20 years and 4000 or more rounds.

[klw]

Could you just place the shim on the base of the cartridge everytime when you loaded a round into the gun?

[Bret4207]

No, that's backwards. You need to seat a boolit into the lands and force the rim back against the bolt face. If your throat is so long that a standard boolit won't do that you can try seating the boolit or bullet backwards, that might do it or even wrap the projectile in tape to up it's size until the bolt closes with a little difficulty. A moderate charge should move the shoulder forward than to its proper position.

I know it sounds redneck, but it works.

[klw]

Understood. Thanks!

The rifle appears to be in perfect condition with little or no use. Maybe the problem stems from wartime sloppyness in production.

[Ricochet]

Once again, slowly:

If putting in the headspace gauge causes ANY added resistance, it filled the headspace. The rifle passes. It has no problem.

A bolt action rifle can easily be forced closed with negative headspace, due to its camming action and elasticity of metals.

[mike in co]

Once again, slowly:

If putting in the headspace gauge causes ANY added resistance, it filled the headspace. The rifle passes. It has no problem.

A bolt action rifle can easily be forced closed with negative headspace, due to its camming action and elasticity of metals.

except for the field gauge...right ?...close on the field is failure

[Ricochet]

No, it's not. Closing without resistance on the Field gauge is failure. If you feel any resistance from the gauge, it has filled the headspace. Expecting it to keep the bolt from closing is misuse of the gauge, though of course it may do that if the fit is very tight.

[klw]

No, it's not. Closing without resistance on the Field gauge is failure. If you feel any resistance from the gauge, it has filled the headspace. Expecting it to keep the bolt from closing is misuse of the gauge, though of course it may do that if the fit is very tight.

When the field gage is used it JUST BARELY adds some resistance when the bolt is closed. Not a lot but some. SO that would suggest that there is not a headspace problem.

But when cartridges are shot a lot of the brass splits upon the first firing. Does the shoulder move forward. Don't know. Will have to load up some ammunition this coming summer and see.

But if a headspacing problem isn't causing the brass to split, what is?

[oneokie]

But if a headspacing problem isn't causing the brass to split, what is?

Is this new brass? Old brass? Surplus ammo?

Could be that the brass has gotten brittle with age. Maybe try annealing some? And see if that helps?

[Ricochet]

Old brass often splits even before firing. "Season cracking."

[Bret4207]

Post 24 and 25 said just what I was thinking. If it's old or unknown origin brass you might want to break it down and try annealing it then shoot it. It won;t fix corrosion but will help with age related embrittlement. (huh, according to spell check I just made a word up...)

[klw]

Brand new. Don't remember the brand but it is brand new.

[Ricochet]

I've found neck cracks in brand new Remington 8mm Mauser cases. E-mailed Remington w/ pictures to let them know there might be a QC concern. They responded defensively and I let it drop, unwilling to follow the cumbersome procedure for shipping it back to them when they acted like I was trying to take advantage of them. Anyway, metallurgical problems still can occur with brand new cases.

Where are your splits? Headspace problems cause circumferential separations in front of the case head, usually after the cases have been fired, resized and fired again, often more than one reloading cycle. Usually no problem on the original firing. And as the first responses advised, firing once to size the cases to the chamber, then neck sizing without resizing the case body will prevent most problems with case head separation.

[klw]

Pulled the fired cases. Have both fired cases that didn't experience any problems and many that did. All were new Graf brass and fired only once.

All the case failures are lengthwise splits at the shoulder. If you compare a fired case to a new one you can see that the location of the shoulder hasn't changed but the shape has. It is more rounded. Instead of a gradual taper at the shoulder most of the taper is gone and the reduction in diameter has moved forward and become much shorter and much more rounded.

[Bret4207]

Okay- anneal it. I had a similar issue with Sellor and Belloit brass and some PMC/Hansen brass a few years back. Annealing is the first thing I'd try and I'll bet it works.

[klw]

Okay- anneal it. I had a similar issue with Sellor and Belloit brass and some PMC/Hansen brass a few years back. Annealing is the first thing I'd try and I'll bet it works.

Worth a shot. But having never done that how do you do it?

[JCherry]

KLW,

For a good article on annealing brass casings go to;

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

and look at the "Traditional methods".

Have Fun,

JCherry

[Gerry N.]

I'm unfamiliar with 8mm Lebel, but if it is at all similar to .303 Brit, it was never intended to be reloaded and the chambers will be "Generous" to the point that fired cases are so enlarged compared to unfired cases as to seem to be different cartridges.

That is why .303 Brit is so hard on full length sized cases. I expect 8mm Lebel is similar.

Anneal your new brass and neck size only.

Gerry N.

[klw]

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1445227&cp=&kw=blow+torch&origkw=blow+torch&sr=1

Think that this would work?

[Sprue]

Worth a shot. But having never done that how do you do it?

You can goto Youtube and do a search on annealing. There are several different methods on annealing however.

Try the link below, and be sure to look over on the right side of the video page, there are several other videos listed by the same guy. Hope this helps.

Annealing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbRdJqyFDGY&feature=related)

[kir_kenix]

I'm with Richochet...sounds like this rifle passed the headspacing to begin with. I see no reason why you shouldn't go ahead and headspace on the shoulder anyway, just so your brass lasts longer. Forcing that shoulder back a few thousanths every time you size is not easy on your brass. I get 1-2 extra reloads out of my Hornets by doing this.

You can close the bolt on a field gauge on just about any new standard bolt rifle chamber if you give her a good push.


edit:
Oops, didn't see that this thread made it to the 2nd page and the conversation had already moved this direction....but I still think that backing that die out a thread or 2 will gain you more reloads.

[Wayne Smith]

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1445227&cp=&kw=blow+torch&origkw=blow+torch&sr=1

Think that this would work?


Not necessary. Just hold the base of the case, dip it in your lead pot up to the sholder until you can't hold the base, counting all the time. Then put on a glove and do the rest to your count. You will have annealed necks and hard bases.

[gunsmith]

the Lebel has a seperate head from the rest of the bolt body. The correct way to correct headspace is to put on a head larger than you currently have. ( technically the breech face) It is done the same as the British enfield.
Many of these guns have had improper parts assembled on them.
You can shim the rear of the bolt face head to tighten up the problem. Just make a washer the proper thickness, insert it onto the rear of the bolt head and assemble. You can low temp solder it into place, if you would like. Really no big deal, but you do not have to remove the barrel. This is a quality gun, not a peice of mass produced metal from modern times.
Make sure you clean the barrel with a brass brush ( alot) as the fouling left is generally brown, corrosive,messy muck. When you get to green, then blue you have something that will shoot well.
It takes bullets of .328 to .330 diameter. That is why the guys that load them with 323 bullets do not get the accuracy that it is capable of delivering. I have 2 a Lebel with german markings, and a Berthier carbine, that is a joy to fire. I use original cartridges, or 348 to make the brass reloadable. Bullets for the 318 westley richards work well, as well as swaging down 338 kbullets to .330.
Hope this helps.

[Wayne Smith]

I see you have not done a chamber cast. Go to Brownells and get some Cerrosafe. It will melt in boiling water. Plug your bore just ahead of the chamber to get your throat as well. Follow the instructions except that I find that I have to knock it out immediately.

Using the chamber cast you can see and measure what you actually have vs. what your brass is. You will likely have the throat and some of the bore as well to measure. Makes it a lot easier.

[TAWILDCATT]

he has not got headspace problems if the neck/shoulder are splitting .he has brass that was not anealed.I have the brass from GRAFS and it is privi partizan/serbian. I have a turkish carbine and shoot surplus MG ammo.never checked the headspace.only gun I ever had problems with was a 303 brit. and replaced the head.where do you find bertier heads.they are removable but were not made to change like the british.I have interchanged jap/mauser/springfield
/carcano.no problems.alot of times you can load the cart on the bolt so the extractor holds the case.but this is not his problem.His problem is a lack of knowledge as to what is wrong. no fault of his.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[jsizemore]

May I offer up an experiment? Take one of your new cases (or once fired new case) and size the case as you normally would. SEAT A FIRED PRIMIER. Now seat your bullet out to engage your rifling as you normally would to fireform your brass to the near oversize chamber. Take a measurement of the overall length of this round. Put this round in the gun and pull the trigger. Remove the round ( it should come out with the bullet still in the case because it didn't go bang) and take a measurement of the overall length. If the length is shorter then you don't have enough neck tension to hold the case in place to fireform your cases. If it's the same length then the bullet seated into the lands will work just fine. Regardless, you probably need to anneal your cases. I know that a spent primier is not ideal but it's all that is readily available. If the overall length ends up being shorter then you will need to form a false or second shoulder to overcome the impulse of the firing pin shoving the case forward onto the bullet. Most of the time I've only had this problem with blackpowder era or short necked cartridges.