PDA

View Full Version : turk cocking piece



Harpman
01-17-2006, 06:10 PM
could some one with a turk 38 that the safety works well on, measure the total lenght of the cocking piece with calipers, I got new springs but safety will not go into the slot to engage, just curious now if the cocking piece where it angels is worn, mine measures at 1.950 total length..its no big deal, the gun works fine except the safety doesnt engage.

Buckshot
01-18-2006, 03:00 AM
..............If you still need to, I will measure my two Turks. Regardless of make, the safety is dependant upon several things being just so. The bolt body, shroud, and cocking piece all interact so may or might not work if you were to mix parts.

................Buckshot

Harpman
01-18-2006, 12:26 PM
yea, no one else is responding to this.I am trying to figure out exactly what determines the distance the cocking piece comes back so the safety will line up with the slot..and be able to turn. I'm thinking the cocking piece is worn a little and thats the problem.

StarMetal
01-18-2006, 01:09 PM
Harpman,

Here goes. The sear, both on the striker and the trigger dictate where that safety notch will be. It should be just a tad ahead of the safety cam so that the safety cams the striker/firing pin back a tad taking the pressure and contact off the trigger sear. Now I can only surmise, but if all was well before you installed a new firing pin spring, I assume the new firing pin spring has too many coils on it or is too long, same difference. What's happening, I think, is that when the firing pin is in the cocked position that new spring is pretty much compressed all the ways, and when you try to engage the safety it won't let it cam back enough to get into that notch.

Try your old spring again and see if all is well. Compare the springs in both lenght and total number of coils.

Joe

Harpman
01-18-2006, 01:17 PM
old spring is the same results, plus it has weak pressure, thats why I got a new one, both my mausers were like this when I got them, so new spring didnt help or hurt the safety part of it...that cocking piece is just not coming back far enough by just a hair. actually the new spring is a good half inch longer, but, it still had no effect on how far the cocking piece comes back, still exact same spot it was coming to before. just have way better firing pin strength now.

StarMetal
01-18-2006, 01:25 PM
Then someone either mismatched parts or worked on the sear. This is a problem sometimes with aftermarket triggers, the sear ends up in a different spot and the safety notch does also and you have to recut a new slot, that is if your new trigger came without the sliding type safety. Any of the bolt parts that are mismatched such as the firing pin, the cocking piece, and bolt shroud could misalign that notch. Can you see where the notch is? I'd say it has to be ahead of the safety cam (forward) surely the notch isn't past the safety (rear).

Joe

Harpman
01-18-2006, 01:53 PM
yea you are right on the safety, on both mausers the notch is just slighly ahead of the safety cam....these are both turks from dealers, I dont think anyone has touched them in 50 years...I am thinking they are just so used that , the cocking piece or the part of the bolt that touches it, where the two angle parts meet and work together are just worn down a little from repeated use and the bolt is just not coming back far as it did new.its maybe a 32 of an inch short.

StarMetal
01-18-2006, 01:56 PM
1/32th is alot. Trying to think of a solution rather then cut the notches back slightly so the safety cam can catch it. You know that cam has kind of a knife edge to cam that cocking piece back some.

Joe

Harpman
01-18-2006, 02:07 PM
I'll try to get another pic of it, and post back.

Junior1942
01-18-2006, 02:11 PM
The front of the cocking piece might have been filed a tad to increase firing pin protrusion. Maybe even for another bolt assembly.

Harpman
01-18-2006, 02:58 PM
ok, heres some pics.
cocked and took out for pic
http://harmonicaplayer.com/38cocked1.jpg
http://harmonicaplayer.com/38cocked2.jpg
http://harmonicaplayer.com/38cocked3.jpg

Junior1942
01-18-2006, 03:33 PM
The safety is not supposed to engage in that position.

Harpman
01-18-2006, 05:08 PM
it will not engage in any position.
heres a pic, in the gun ready to fire.
http://harmonicaplayer.com/38cocked4.jpg

Junior1942
01-18-2006, 05:43 PM
Remove the firing pin spring and reinstall the bolt in the rifle. Then see if a very slight movement of the cocking piece to the rear allows the safety to set.

Harpman
01-18-2006, 05:47 PM
LOL, tried that, no go, was seeing if the spring had a conection to it, still came back the same distance.

Junior1942
01-18-2006, 06:23 PM
in other words, with no spring in the bolt and with the safety in the "Fire" position and the bolt closed in the action the safety still would not move to the center, disasemble, position when you eased the cocking piece to the rear with your fingers?

Harpman
01-18-2006, 06:27 PM
I think its just worn out, I compared to another one, and it looks worn, I took apart with spring, without, and set so safety was on, but it will not go into that position when its being cocked in the gun. look at the first pic where the cocking piece edge is touching the bolt body,where both pieces have an angle and ride on eachother, the cocking piece seems to be needing to come up higher over the edge, thats the area I think is worn out.

StarMetal
01-18-2006, 08:52 PM
Harpman,

On two of the mauser that I have that I looked at the rear of the firing pin doesn't stick out as far as yours. Mine are flush with the back of the cocking piece. Mine are both German made 98's and it just may be the way your Turks are, dunno.

Joe

Harpman
01-18-2006, 09:21 PM
I noticed that, but didnt know what to make of it. maybe thats the result of the part I'm talking about being worn..not coming back far enough to where it is flush..dont know.I guess we just dont have any bolt experts on this board...I just measured with the safety set by hand, I got .070 from cocking piece rear to safety cam, when cocking normal and not working correctly that distance is .630

StarMetal
01-18-2006, 09:46 PM
Harpman

Don't take a bolt expert. It's obivious that one, or even two of your bolt parts are either worn or mismatch. I think the "non bolt experts" here covered it pretty good.

Joe

Harpman
01-18-2006, 09:48 PM
I didnt notice any solid answer. to a specific part being worn, except what I brought up, and I was looking for a yes or no , on the assumption I made.
I'm not trying to start any crap or anything, I was just trying to figure it out with a definate answer, its bugging me now, It just turned into one of those things that I have to find an answer to, even though the gun works ok. could be the safety never did work..it is a turk after all, werent they all put together with parts mismatched ? or were the bolts always built and kept together ? But the 98/22 I have is exactly the same too, so..........

Junior1942
01-18-2006, 10:14 PM
>maybe thats the result of the part I'm talking about being worn..not coming back far enough to where it is flush..dont know.

Harpman, it would help a lot if you would explain it so we could understand what you're talking about. For example, the sentence above doesn't make much sense. . . . Like, what part? Like, flush with what? Flush?

Harpman
01-18-2006, 10:24 PM
flush = the end of the firing pin with the rear of the cocking piece like starmetal said his was.

Buckshot
01-19-2006, 02:18 AM
.............Harpman, frustrating eh? Because of the 4 parts involved (bolt body, cocking piece, bolt shroud, and the safety) tolerance stacking can make the safety inoperative, or ineffective and dangerous.

Let's assume there is no wear and it's just an unfortunate mix of parts. To work, the cocking piece has only a short span of room it can be within in order for the safety lever to cam it back.

Remove the bolt and disassemble. Re-assemble it without the safety lever and put it back in the rifle. Cock the bolt and look in that space otherwise occupied by the safety lever. There should be a space there of approximately 1/16" or a bit more, between the TOP FRONT of the cocking piece and the rear of the bolt shroud there where the safety lever goes into it.

What does your's look like? I'm betting that there is no vacant area or if there is then it's a small sliver of room.

................Buckshot

Harpman
01-19-2006, 01:36 PM
frustrating to say the least.LOl..right the slot is not there when doing what you said,the cocking piece needs to come back more for the slot to be there lined up with the safety cam.

fourarmed
01-19-2006, 03:35 PM
Harpman, that first picture looks like the angled camming surface at the rear of the bolt is worn enough that it allows the cocking piece to sit forward a considerable distance. If the bolt is soft enough, it might be possible to run a tapered mandrel into the back of the bolt until it is tight and then peen that surface out a little.

HORNET
01-19-2006, 04:47 PM
Harpman,
I have to agree with fourarmed. Looks like the cocking cam in the bolt body as well as the cocking piece are worn at about 5 degrees . This secondary angle shouldn't be there. The cam area on the bolt body could have been a little soft or it has seen lots of abuse. Both are repairable with a little welding and creative grinding.

Harpman
01-19-2006, 04:51 PM
thanks guys, That is exactly what I was thinking, I thought about welding a tad on to it, then filing it to where it should be, but didnt know if that would cause warpage somewhere or what..or If its safe, just leave it alone, I dont ever have a gun loaded anyway unless its in my hand being fired. I never set a loaded gun down, not even for a second. just a safety precaution I take.

XRING363
01-19-2006, 05:49 PM
Harpman, my 38/46 did the same thing. I bought a new safety, no luck. I ground a small bevel/radius on top of the cocking piece and now both safetys work fine. The safety pulls back the cocking piece just as it does on my older model 38. I think I just had a bad cocking piece. This info is priced at its actual worth. It did work for me. Good luck.

Jeff

Dorf
01-19-2006, 09:55 PM
Hey Harpman, Take that cocking piece to someone who has a TIG welding machine--notice I said TIG and NOT MIG-- and get a bit of weld build up on the end of that camming surface. Then work it down to size with the needle files (or a Dremel tool if you're brave). It won't take too much and the TIG welder is so fast that the heat is localized and won't travel to the sear area. The only problem that I know of is that the weld is soft and will wear down after a cuple of thousand cycles. YMMV -- hope this helps. Stan

btr-cj
01-20-2006, 12:47 PM
If both bolts are doing the same thing I would try different combinations of parts to see if you hit on a good combo to allow at least one of the bolts to work.


I have done that on a few turks and have had it to work a couple of times.

C.J.

Junior1942
01-20-2006, 01:47 PM
>The only problem that I know of is that the weld is soft and will wear down after a cuple of thousand cycles.

That brings to mind a question: Can a cocking peice be re-hardened by heating to the point of loss of magnetism and quenching in oil like a knife blade?

Buckshot
01-20-2006, 07:34 PM
>The only problem that I know of is that the weld is soft and will wear down after a cuple of thousand cycles.

That brings to mind a question: Can a cocking peice be re-hardened by heating to the point of loss of magnetism and quenching in oil like a knife blade?

........I don't know about the small bolt parts or other small parts like trigger group parts and stuff. However the actions were intened to be made from a low carbon alloy and then selectively casehardened on wear surfaces. Apparently this was done because Germany was poor in mineral deposits and a more highly alloyed reciever steel would have been problematic to produce if imports of common alloying additives like chrome, vanadium, and moly had been interupted.

...............Buckshot

Teach
01-22-2006, 12:42 PM
I've got a shop full of Mauser bits & pieces. I can send you a couple of extra cocking pieces, or make your bolt work if you send it to me. I always discard the original safety wing when I build a sporter, so I've probably got a dozen safeties, plus several cocking pieces. Drop me a private message or an email.
Jerry

Ricochet
01-25-2006, 04:51 PM
Turk bolt bodies sure look like they're made of nickel steel. They stay nice and bright silvery, and where they've been blued the blue didn't stay on very well.

They mixed the bolt shrouds and internal parts freely, even the ones with bolt body numbers matching the receiver tend not to have anything else matching.