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View Full Version : Bullet performance on game.



JeffinNZ
02-01-2009, 10:18 PM
Team.

I have a opportunity to go deer hunting in March. I am considering taking my .303 Pygmy rifle. I have not used a cast bullet on large game at this time.

How do you all feel about a 240gr 9.8 BHN bullet departing at 1500fps on a deer the size of one of your Mulies. Ranges will be inside 100m easy.

This bullet in fact.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/IMG_0110.jpg

high standard 40
02-01-2009, 10:28 PM
With proper bullet placement, there is no reason to expect anything but good results with that load. Many deer have been taken with handguns using bullets in at that performance level. Your .30 will also penetrate more because of the higher sectionl density.

GLynn41
02-01-2009, 11:39 PM
I killed two with a 255 @ 1340 in a >41/44 --so yours shold be a shoe in or someum like that

Bigjohn
02-01-2009, 11:41 PM
Jeff, If you put that in the right place as you have demonstrated with your target shooting ability, you will 'tag' your game.

Is it one of Jim's? Looks like a heavier version of the 311291.

John.

JeffinNZ
02-02-2009, 12:50 AM
JOHN - it's Jim's new(ish) release 316 240 with the lube grooves on the nose. Superbly accurate.

Tom W.
02-02-2009, 12:56 AM
Where are you gonna find pygmies?

JeffinNZ
02-02-2009, 04:07 AM
Eufaula......:-D:-D

Buckshot
02-02-2009, 04:34 AM
............Jeff ole son. Ben PM'd me a couple pretty gruesome picks of a deer a friend of his shot with a bitty piddly little 173gr Lyman 311041. The deer was walking away to his 2 o'clock and the shot entered the side of the neck. Then traveled up through the base of the skull, traversed the brain and proceeded to blow the top of the skull off.

The next day he sent me one of a doe he'd just shot earlier that day. Same type 311041 boolit, The deer was pretty much 103% dead at the sound of the shot. Place the boolit in a deadly place and the animal will usually oblige.

...............Buckshot

lead Foot
02-02-2009, 04:52 AM
That pretty boolit is bigger than a pygmy.:mrgreen:
lead Foot

JeffinNZ
02-02-2009, 05:20 PM
BUCKSHOT - I saw Ben's post and very impressive though he is using a HP bullet. I figure I have enough gun for closer shots though. I hind sight the load is at least as good as the .32-40 loadings.

Hayfield
02-02-2009, 06:01 PM
Just returned from a buffalo (American bison) hunt where I used the wrong bullet. 520 gr Lyman gov't bullet cast 25:1 (10 bhn) over 66 grs Swiss 1 1/2. I used an 1878 Sharps Borchardt. At 125 yards it punched through the liver and both lungs and out the other side with no impact or trama at all. It took two more shots to dispatch the beast. I'm used to dropping a beast immediately so this really got to me.
Forget that 'proper shot placement' BS. Sometimes it ain't gonna be possible. Like on the American prairie with winds blowing 50 miles per hour, a couple inches off and its a poor shot. Use the right bullet along with everything else. Go with soft and either hollow point or wide flat meplat. Just my 2 cents.

MT Gianni
02-02-2009, 07:44 PM
Hayfield, I have never shot a Buffalo but they are bigger than Moose and Moose take a while to realize they are dead. Large animals react differently especially when bleeding out. They hold a lot of blood so brain function appears unimpaired for quite a while.

leftiye
02-02-2009, 08:00 PM
Plus, sometimes as with Elk, you'll get no reaction at all from the shot even when you can see the steam coming out of both sides of their chests (from the "ventilation"). A bit later they'll walk off a ways and lay down permanently, or just fall over. If you're not in danger of losing the animal in cover - just wait and watch if you're sure of your shot.

missionary5155
02-02-2009, 08:09 PM
Good evening
+1 on the SOFT boolit. A Caliber.30 made out of 50 / 50 WW- Pure at 1600 fps will complete penetrate deer and make a good enough drain that tracking is not much problem. The only thing better would be a .35 or .38 at the same FPS.
Good hunting Jeff... Mike

Bret4207
02-03-2009, 08:45 AM
Just returned from a buffalo (American bison) hunt where I used the wrong bullet. 520 gr Lyman gov't bullet cast 25:1 (10 bhn) over 66 grs Swiss 1 1/2. I used an 1878 Sharps Borchardt. At 125 yards it punched through the liver and both lungs and out the other side with no impact or trama at all. It took two more shots to dispatch the beast. I'm used to dropping a beast immediately so this really got to me.
Forget that 'proper shot placement' BS. Sometimes it ain't gonna be possible. Like on the American prairie with winds blowing 50 miles per hour, a couple inches off and its a poor shot. Use the right bullet along with everything else. Go with soft and either hollow point or wide flat meplat. Just my 2 cents.

Discounting proper shot placement and calling it BS is what has lead to all the fat coyotes in my area. Try a Hail Mary shot at extreme range and feed the coyotes. :roll: While I understand your point that sometimes you have to take the shot you get and agree with the soft alloy HP/FN idea, telling someone that shot placement is BS is doing us all a disservice.:(

Black Jaque Janaviac
02-03-2009, 10:54 AM
I think I understand Hayfield's point, I'm guessing he just overstated it.

There are some folks who disregard terminal performance and think that a sub moa load/bullet is preferable than a 2 or 3 moa even if the sub moa is an FMJ!

In Hayfield anecdotal evidence he claims it took two more shots to dispatch the animal. But he didn't tell us how long he waited before taking the 2nd and 3rd shots.

When I began hunting with a muzzle loader I was woefully disappointed in the killing power. But then I began comparing notes against the performance of a highpowered gun. As it turns out, the difference I noticed wasn't the difference in lethalness it was the difference of a repeating gun vs. a muzzle loader. With a muzzle loader I would punch 'em through the boiler room. Quite often they would run for 100+ yards. I never remembered that with .30-06 or even .30-30s. Then I reviewed a lot of my past shots with the breech loaders. As it turns out, I would punch 'em through the boiler room, then when they began to run off I'd hit 'em again (usually in the gut, then in the rump, and that would put 'em down.)[smilie=1: Had I let them go after the first shot perhaps I would see more deer run 100+ yards after a boiler room hit from a high powered rifle.

If you think about it, even if they run 100 yards it was still a humane kill. A high school athlete can cover 100 yards in 10 seconds. A deer, probably half that. So in spite of covering a great distance they still were only feeling pain for maybe 5 seconds.

Bret4207
02-03-2009, 10:58 AM
Overstatements can lead to the wrong impression. Shot placement is King followed by penetration.

sniper7369
02-03-2009, 02:55 PM
I'm one of those who will take shot placement over bullet design. The way I see it, an FMJ that hits the heart is probably better than a "Super Expander Bonded Core Partition Tactical Ninja Bullet" that misses the heart. My old 1911 has killed more than a few Coydogs dead right there with a hard cast 230 RN and 230gr FMJ. A hole in the heart is a hole in the heart. :coffee:

Black Jaque Janaviac
02-03-2009, 06:38 PM
Actually, I think there would be a difference. A softnose exanding bullet through the lungs very well may make for a quicker kill.

Keep in mind I'm not saying accuracy doesn't count at all. But look at it this way. A sub-moa shot dead center of the heart with a FMJ is indeed a heart-shot worthy of kudos and attaboys. However a 2 or even 3 moa shot centered on the heart with an expanding bullet is still worth the same kudos and attaboys and will result in less tracking.

Of course not many folks hunt under ideal conditions either. So even if a gun and load are capable of sub-moa, misjudging wind, or even shooting at a still deer that by chance happens to jump forward at the instant you pull the trigger can result in a liver shot, or heaven forbid, a gutshot.

I think most saavy hunters will opt for a weapon/load that scores "well" in all categories of performance as opposed to a weapon/load that scores superb in one catgegory and lousy in others.

Larry Gibson
02-03-2009, 08:27 PM
Overstatements can lead to the wrong impression. Shot placement is King followed by penetration.

I'm going to agree with Bret but will also state the shot "At 125 yards it punched through the liver and both lungs" is not what I call "good shot placement" as it was obviously the "behind the shoulder shot" on a broadside shot.. Good shot placement would have been through the heart/lung area. Granted the first shot killed the buffalo, Hayfield didn't need to shoot the other two shots. The heart/lung shot would have killed quicker and may have collapsed the buff due to imediate blood pressure loss to the brain. Did we really expect the buff to fall over at the shot?

However, all said and done congrats to Hayfield on the buff.

Larry Gibson

Gun Junkie
02-04-2009, 12:31 AM
I'm basing my statement on having shot a whitetail with a 30-06 using a 150FNPB lead bullet at about 1500 fps. Shot him about 60 yards away. He ran about 70 yards, so about 20 yards more than when I hit one with a 150gr SP J-word bullet doing 2800fps. Big deal. The cast bullet was commercial so it was fairly hard. I think the flat point did everything I could have wanted. So there's another 2cents worth.

I've shot other deer with cast in 375H&H at 1800 fps and 50cal muzzleloaders. Plus J-word kills and everything runs a ways regardless unless you hit spine or brain. Go for it dude!

Leadforbrains
02-04-2009, 08:34 AM
I killed a about a 100lb whitetale doe this past season with an RCBS .32-170 -FP boolit. she was about 70 yards away. I took out one shoulder and got both lungs. Boolit went straight through .She went about 20 yards and piled up. I new she was done at the shot because she was just using her back legs to run after the shot. If the boolit is up to the task I usually try to break the shoulders. It seems to put them down a little quicker. If you are hunting near heavy cover quicker is better

leftiye
02-04-2009, 01:56 PM
Liver shots ain't all that bad. 6mm improved, 250 yds, high wind left to right, speer 85 grain spbt, deer walking to right. Oh well, liver shot (overestimated the wind, bullet hit right where I aimed) - took two steps and fell on his face. Bullet penetrated clear through and lodged under skin on far side, very nice mushroom. There are other vitals besides the heart BTW. Both the lungs, and the liver will bleed like crazy, but an expanding bu/oolit do make all the difference if you don't perforate the heart. Even with an 06 and expanding bullet through (exploding) the heart, many deer run 100 yards without a heart.

Beaverhunter2
02-04-2009, 02:11 PM
I agree with Leftie on a couple points:

1. "Liver shots ain't all that bad." The liver holds more blood at any given time than any other organ in the body. And if you've ever cut one apart, you see the huge blood vessels passing through it. That being said- I hold for the center of the heart-lung area. The liver provides a nice margin for error!

2. "Many deer run 100 yard without a heart." I shot a doe this year with a .450 Marlin loaded with a RP 300gr JHP (sorry!) MV 2350fps Range 35 yards. Turns out it was much too fast for the bullet. The hole in the ribcage on the entrance side was 4" dia. The hole in the exit side was slightly smaller. One-half of the heart was gone and I was able to take the remains of it out of the chest cavity without having to cut it free. The largest intact piece of lung was the size of my fist and was also unattached. You could have ruined your boots if you stepped in the blood trail. She ran 50 yards and leapt over a down tree that was almost shoulder high. Don't be disappointed if a deer runs after the shot. Sometimes they don't know they're dead.

John

DeepSouth
02-04-2009, 02:54 PM
I think to many people believe in DRT(dead right there).It may be because of the hunting shows on TV where it seems like most of the time what ever is being hunted is DRT after the shot or maybe we try to hard to be humane,which there is nothing wrong with.Most of my hunting life was spent using a 788 243 I guess that would be about 300yrs.Just recentlyhave I began using a45-70.Now I have not killed truckloads of deer but I have killed quite a few.One and only one deer that I shot with the 243 was DRT.Hit the ground and never moved.Shot one with the 45-70 last year square in the chest,DRT.Only 2 in about 30 yrs of hunting,now that maybe because I always use the behind the shoulder shot.I do not like to lose any meat.I think we sometimes over think hunting a little to much.Well I have got this cal or this cal or this one here and think because its bigger or faster the animal should be DRT.I sometimes call deer the Rhino Whitetail because of some of the cal that are used on them.They're not armor plated but they're still a damn tough animal.Mostof the deer I have shot with my 243 ran about 50 to 60 yds and that was it.Been laughed at many times because I shoot a girl gun. I do'nt know about that it gets the job done.

DeepSouth
02-04-2009, 02:56 PM
"300yrs" Man I've been around for along time.

docone31
02-04-2009, 03:01 PM
Lazarus, I am unworthy.
I use the edit function occasionally. Sometimes the brain thinks one thing, and the fingers talk another.
Hehehe.
The rare occasions I have been hunting, I have tried to be as absolutely humane as possible. I still blame myself for some misses.

Ricochet
02-04-2009, 03:08 PM
"300yrs" Man I've been around for along time.

That must've been an early protoype 788, too.

carpetman
02-04-2009, 03:20 PM
Jeff why are you worried about bullet performance? When those pigmies see your purple long Johns they'll choke on their poison darts.

JeffinNZ
02-04-2009, 05:20 PM
Jeff why are you worried about bullet performance? When those pigmies see your purple long Johns they'll choke on their poison darts.

It was just a matter of time Ray, wasn't it? [smilie=l:

Bigjohn
02-04-2009, 06:17 PM
It was just a matter of time Ray, wasn't it? [smilie=l:

When one enters the forum, one must be careful because there lurks 'Ray'.

I think he is doing his best to ensure his name never appears on your "Persons to invite for a hunt" list.

Would they give you so much grief if your longjohns were camo?

John.

RSOJim
02-04-2009, 07:58 PM
If I can get this picture to appear, I will show you fine folks my experiment I performed yesterday. I decided to use Ranch Dogs 30 cal 165 FN for the experiment. My experiment was to see how big of a hole I could put through my house roof. My experiment was a success. I now have a one inch hole to patch. I still don't know how this boolit works on game. Jim

Boerrancher
02-04-2009, 08:35 PM
When one enters the forum, one must be careful because there lurks 'Ray'.

I think he is doing his best to ensure his name never appears on your "Persons to invite for a hunt" list.

Would they give you so much grief if your longjohns were camo?

John.

I would invite Ray on a hunt just to have him around as a good humor man. If nothing else I could get enjoyment watching him become ill while I extolled the virtues of having GW Bush as a President for eight years. [smilie=1: