.45 Super

[Triggerhappy]

Has anyone here tried loading and testing the .45 Super? I've been doing a bunch of reading on it, basically a hopped up .45 ACP. Instead of 185g @ 1050 or so they kick it up a notch in the neighborhood of 1300 fps. Most of the guys that have blogs about it are using standard Browning style unramped, unsupported barrels. Since all of my .45's have ramped barrels I might be inclined to give it a try, or at least play around with it a little. Starline sells special .45 Super brass that's marginally thicker in the web area, not sure it would make a difference in a supported barrel.

I don't think I would want to try it in a nonramped barrel though. The pressure is just too high IMO. I've seen bulged cases from .45 +P.

I was kind of hoping I could find someone here that had tried it. What were the impressions, problems, etc.

Thanks.

[wiljen]

Fishhawk loads the 460 Rowland - basically an even more hopped up 45 ACP.

[Triggerhappy]

Wiljen,

Wouldn't the .460 take a different barrel? I have no idea, just an assumption. The Super is same external dimensions as the ACP. That is a huge drawback as far as safety goes as it would be easy for someone to get the two mixed up and fire the Super where it doesn't belong.

[Bret4207]

I was going to mention the 460 Rowland. That one appealed to me, but I can't think of a common sense reason why. MORE POWER!!!! ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!

[bobthenailer]

i have 136 rounds of once fired brass, and 46 rounds of 185 jhp and 16 rounds of 230 jhp of factory ammo all in the triton brand for sale at a reasonably price if youre intrested ? i belive you can use a 22 or 24 pound recoil spring with a shock buff in your 45 with ramped barrel .

[mtgrs737]

I saw a post/article on the 45 super over on the HK Pro forum a while back. You might do a search over there and see if you can find it. I do remember that it said the HK USP full size 45 was rated by the factory to use 45 super ammo, but I don't remember much else. I would not want the stuff around for the same reason you have pointed out, it is the same external size as the standard ACP ammo.

[Willbird]

I saw a post/article on the 45 super over on the HK Pro forum a while back. You might do a search over there and see if you can find it. I do remember that it said the HK USP full size 45 was rated by the factory to use 45 super ammo, but I don't remember much else. I would not want the stuff around for the same reason you have pointed out, it is the same external size as the standard ACP ammo.

IN the early days of the 45 super it required a full ramp barrel and a 38 super sized firing pin. Now all it requires is a heavier recoil spring, and a shok buff would be advised. Firing a few rounds of 45 super in a normal 1911 would cause no harm, they beefed up the case head so that a full ramp barrel is not needed. It might not set to good with a GLOCK however :-)

Bill

[Triggerhappy]

I was just curious cause I usually carry a 1911 when in the back country. We have wolves, bears and worse of all moose. Wouldn't mind having a little more oomph on the .45 at times. Recoil wouldn't bug me too much. If I can reconcile having a higher pressure round around I may give it a try. Would hate to have someone pick up a round that I dropped and try it in their own pistol. Could be a bad day. Have to ponder it some.

[HeavyMetal]

Triggerhappy: your a thinkin' man and I like that!

Guys with NM Blackhawks in 45 Colt loading to the max was rampent a few yrs ago and is still being done. The Ruger is a good strong gun and will stand up to this type of shooting for a long time. However many of these shooter also had original Clot SAA's or clones, getting the ammo mixed up in these is a dissaster waiting to happen.

Wish more shooters looked as far ahead as you have. Perhaps it is a bit paranoid but I always 'ere on the side of caution.

As to your back woods problem. Get the 460 rowland conversion for the extra "steam" or pick up a used 29 4 inch. Even with loads not quite full house you'll still be ahead of the 460 or the 45 super.

Last option is don't drop any live 45 super ammo.

[Willbird]

There is always the 400 corbon too.

Bill

[Triggerhappy]

My problem is I train with and compete with 1911 style guns. Hate to use anything else at all for any personal defense. I do have other revolvers and such that would be more powerful that the 1911, but it puts me at a disadvantage if I'm in a hurry. I've seen it happen all too often. I prefer to stick with a single type of pistol most of the time so my muscle memory is second nature and I don't have to think about it. In my opinion this is much safer even if it means I have to carry a less potent cartridge.

Just bought the wife a compact XD in .45 for her carry gun. We went to a commercial pistol range and rented about a dozen guns that I don't own for her to try. I feel it's that important to find the right gun that fits and is comfortable to shoot. She thought she wanted a .40 but after shooting several she like the rolling rock of the .45 to the sharper crack & recoil of the .40 and anything else. Anything smaller than .40 was not considered. I'll have to be careful shooting her XD as it does not have a thumb safety. I can imagine pulling the gun and trying to get the safety off before pulling the trigger. Would be really annoying if in a hurry / life & death situation.

I may order an XD for myself but it will be the service model with the thumb safety. For her it's better not to have it, to me it's second nature to have a thumb safety.

Defensive weapons are a whole other ball game from the casual plinking. Just for fun I used to shoot full house defensive loads while shooting PPC with a bunch of guys that shot toned down race .38 revolvers. I could beat them most of the time but had to shoot with an empty bay next to me.

[Triggerhappy]

Thanks for the input guys. Really appreciate it. May work up a load somewhere between .45+P and Super. Will take some testing. Not sure it's worth going full house though. Hate to tear up the guns.

[dougader]

Lots of guys over on Glocktalk.com have been shooting 45 Super. I am just getting setup for it. You definitely need to get some 45 Super brass from Starline.

There is a thread here where you can read about it:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197490

Be sure and check out Ace's website, too, for info on the 45 Super:

http://www.acecustom45s.com/45super.htm

For my G21 sf I just got a 22# recoil spring and a stainless guide rod, a Lone Wolf 6" barrel and 45 Super Starline brass. Have not loaded anything up yet.

Got an email from a guy who uses this setup to push 260 grain hardcast slugs at 1,170 fps. I plan to work up loads with 250 - 265 grain hardcast slugs to check for velocity and feeding reliability but haven't done it yet. This guy uses Longshot powder. I am going to try BlueDot and AA7 to start with.

All the best.

[leadeye]

Triggerhappy: your a thinkin' man and I like that!

Guys with NM Blackhawks in 45 Colt loading to the max was rampent a few yrs ago and is still being done. The Ruger is a good strong gun and will stand up to this type of shooting for a long time. However many of these shooter also had original Clot SAA's or clones, getting the ammo mixed up in these is a dissaster waiting to happen.

Wish more shooters looked as far ahead as you have. Perhaps it is a bit paranoid but I always 'ere on the side of caution.

As to your back woods problem. Get the 460 rowland conversion for the extra "steam" or pick up a used 29 4 inch. Even with loads not quite full house you'll still be ahead of the 460 or the 45 super.

Last option is don't drop any live 45 super ammo.

I get around this problem by using different bullets for different loads. My Colts get 250 round nose and the Rugers get SWCs Might work here as well.

[Triggerhappy]

Bullet that heavy won't leave much room for powder. Let us know how it works for you. I'm very interested.

[akraven]

A couple of thoughts. You can shoot supers with just a spring change. Here's an article on it http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm. Wilson and Wild West guns now make 460 Rowlands without a comp. Basically differient springs,ramped barrel and a flat bottomed firing pin stop. Now this will send the "confuse your ammo " folks into a tail spin but I sent a note to Starline brass and asked the difference between 45 Super brass and 460 Rowland brass. Their reply nothing but length. So the standard length 45 Super brass is plenty strong to do some experimenting with to what level you feel confident. I too love the 1911 platform but am searching for more punch for the woods here in Alaska. I did have a Clark Rowland setup but with the long comp it was a pain. So now I am looking at the Rowland again without the comp.
PS for plaastic gun folks Wild West guns is also doing conversion of S&W M&P's and Springfield XD45's to 460 Rowland.

[quasi]

if you have some time to spare you can make 45-08 brass from 7.62 Nato brass.It is even stronger than .45 Super brass but it requires inside reaming of the cut down 7.62 brass.

[akraven]

You know supposedly Armco is going to have some 45-08 available in February.

[pdawg_shooter]

We were making 45-06 brass back in the 60s. Everyone thought we needed more power than a standard ACP would give. Live and learn. Most folks know better now. If I need more power I will carry my 44 mag. It that wont handle it I do have a few rifles.

[blaster]

There is a series of articles on real guns about loading 45 super in a 1911 with a heavier recoil spring.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm

The 460 rowland requires a different barrel with a muzzle break so that the exiting gasses hold the action closed a little longer.

[yondering]

Triggerhappy, a flat bottomed firing pin stop is a good idea if you're going to work up some hot loads (you sound pretty familiar with 1911's and may know this already.) This is a common addition for full-house 10mm loads in 1911's. EGW makes them, not sure who else.

I have one in my Para P16-40, it's nice in that it delays lock time a little, and lets you get away with a lighter recoil spring (I don't like really heavy springs since they are hard on the gun too). My P16 handles full house 10mm level loads fine, but still runs with real light .40 S&W stuff. You should be able to get the same results in a .45, with something that will handle Super loads but also work with standard 45 ACP. I have not installed one in my .45 though.

[only1asterisk]

I've been messing with the 45 Super for more than 12 years. If you need anything, let me know. I will say that favor a longslide for 45 Super use. I have also never had a problem with load segregation.

[Artful]

We were making 45-06 brass back in the 60s. Everyone thought we needed more power than a standard ACP would give. Live and learn. Most folks know better now. If I need more power I will carry my 44 mag. It that wont handle it I do have a few rifles.

Dean Grennell strikes again - I remember that period and finding steel cases from ww2 to coat with something (teflon?) putting in double springs and making 255 keith SWC loads at like 1100 fps we guestimated - someone actually cracked a frame with the stuff we were playing with.
[smilie=b:

Becareful

[Moonie]

only1asterisk, load data would be nice. Not much around. Hodgdon has some, but its limited to 20K CUP which isn't much more than standard and less than +p pressure

[mtgrs737]

45 super brass from Starline also has a different heat treat and the thicker webb section.

[Ridgerunner665]

+P brass, 230 grain Hornady XTP, and a large dose of Alliant Power Pistol.

Not in a 1911...but in a fully supported chamber (XD), I liked the 230 grain bullets at 1,050 fps. Thats not quite 45 Super...more like 45acp +P+.

I did play around with much hotter loads...but that one was powerful enough, and scary accurate.

I'm sorry but I'm not gonna post the load data...but if you have a Hornady manual, the load is not much over the MAX load listed there.

[leftiye]

Would an EAA witness with a buffer and heavy mainspring stand up to .45 super? Rowland- (a comp is available)?

[Grapeshot]

Wasn't there a .451 Detonics Magnum floating around in the late 1970's? I understand that had a case that mirrored the .45ACP, or was it a few thousandths longer? In any case what I read about it was that any gun chambered for the .451 DM could shoot .45 ACP as well.

Then we have the .45 Winchester Magnum and the Wildey (SP) pistols.

[only1asterisk]

Couple to get you started:

These are to be considered MAX! Developed in a ramped barrel, use in your barrels at your own risk . Reduce 1.2 grains and start from there.

BD45 (239grns, Water dropped, WW)12 grains AA#7
SAECO #058 (222grns, Water Dropped, WW) 9.5 grains Longshot

AA#7, Longshot and Power Pistol are the best powders I've found. I 'll post some links and more data after a while.

[MtGun44]

My understanding is that Power Pistol is THE powder in .45 Super.

Also - for your application get some Hornady 230 FMJ FPs. Drill DEEP.

Having competed with the 1911 in IPSC for over 30 yrs, I know what you mean
about the skill set, but when I backpack in Wyoming near Yellowstone (Griz, blk
bear, wolves and DEFINITELY moose, plus 2 legged predators) I carry a S&W 329
loaded with 20.0 gr of 2400 over my own cast Keith 250 gr - usually H&G 503
but the 429421 and RCBS 44-250 K are also used.

Bill

[fivegunner]

Reading these above post , I just have to ask myself WHY? the 1911 45acp works very well just the way it is. yes its fun to play with other so called inprovements (a few more FPS). But if I had to trust a gun to save my hide I would rather take a chance with a gun that worked every time with 230 grain hardball than a (super whatever? ) that may or may not have problems running. don`t take me wrong , I like ALL GUN `S and calibers and like to tinker with them. a good 44mag 4 inch might be a better gun to use if you might run into a bear:coffeecom

[HeavyMetal]

fivegunner:
I think you ought to go back and re read Triggerhappy's post number 11.

Not to beat a dead horse but his reasons made real sense. Basically once a stuation goes bad we all do as we are trained PERIOD!

Using the same type gun all the time increases chances of survival no matter what goes down. The chances of having to use a weapon weak handed or picking up a discarded weapon are non existant and have never, to my knowledge, been documented in a police shoot out.

Carrying a 1911 with a little more power for those few outings in the woods once again makes sense, For Triggerhappy, perhaps not for the rest of us.

Glad you guys re visited this thread I am curious as to what Triggerhappy decided to do, perhaps he will re vist this thread and update us.

[tek4260]

Here you go. Thread is about 265 CP at around 1K from a 45 auto

http://singleactions.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=other&action=display&thread=1932

[only1asterisk]

My understanding is that Power Pistol is THE powder in .45 Super.


I've never had much luck with Power Pistol under lead. It is the jacketed bullet powder of choice for sure.

[MtGun44]

I would assume that most of the developers are using j-bullets for .45 Super,
a friend loads this caliber and swears by Power Pistol. He does not use boolits.

Bill

[Barry54]

I've been messing with the 45 Super for more than 12 years. If you need anything, let me know. I will say that favor a longslide for 45 Super use. I have also never had a problem with load segregation.

I’m contemplating 45 super. Where’s the best source for load data? I’ve got a 230 grain hollow point mold and I’m not really interested in lighter weights.
Thanks

[Paul105]

There's a lot of "45 Super" data out there on the net and a lot of it is well up into 460 Rowland pressure territory. I used a chronograph and limited max loads to velocities shown on Buffalo Bore's website. I worked up slowly starting with a slight incr in 45 acp +P data, checking velocity and looking for case head bulge ("glock bulge"). I've mostly used longshot and AA #7. I've experimented with both 45 Super and 460 Rowland. I don't push either one of them - plenty oomph without going to the edge of the envelope.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=76


45 SUPER AMMO


ITEM 45S185

45 Super is externally/dimensionally identical to 45 ACP or 45 ACP +P and is designed to be used in 45 ACP semi-auto pistols that have been fitted with stronger than normal recoil springs and a shock buffer, plus a couple of other modifications. While you can shoot 45 SUPER out of some stock 45 acp+P pistols such as the Glock 21, HK USP, or the full-sized all steel 1911, you will batter your pistol if you do not have them modified to handle the extra pressure and slide velocity of the 45 Super.

To learn about the modifications your 45 ACP pistol needs to reliably and safely fire 45 SUPER, contact Garey Hindman at 936-402-3484. Garey is the foremost authority on 45 Super modifications/conversions for your 45 ACP and Garey performs such conversions for a living.


The below velocities were fired from my Colt Gold Cup Govt. Model (5-inch) that was converted by Garey.

➤ 1,330 fps -- Item # 45S185 - (185gr. Jhp)
➤ 1,235 fps -- Item # 45S200 - (200gr. Jhp)
➤ 1,131 fps -- Item # 45S230 - (230gr. Jhp)
➤ 1,133 fps -- Item # 45S230FMJ - (230gr. FMJ-FLAT NOSE)
➤ 1,090 fps -- Item # 45S255 - (255gr. HARD CAST-FLAT NOSE)

As always with Buffalo Bore Ammunition, we use real world firearms to give you real-world data and results.

All our 45 Super ammunition is loaded with flash suppressed powders so that if you have to fire in low light (when the criminal element is out) you will not be blinded by your own gunfire at the worst possible moment.

All three of the JHP loads were designed for anti-personnel use and for hunting small big game-like deer. The two solid bullet loads were designed for breaking large bones like a bear's shoulders or skull but will work for anti-personnel use as well if you need to shoot through cover like car doors or stick frame walls.