Kropatcheck 8X60R

[Toothmaker]

I just joined so hello to everyone. I have been collecting guns for some time. I came across a Kropatcheck rifle. The rifle is in very good shape. I understand that this rifle is a black powder one. I have shot it using black powder but it is a bear to clean up after you get finished shooting. Does anyone know a conversion chart to change black powder load to smokeless powder? Thank you for any help

[Bloodman14]

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CONVERT TO SMOKELESS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, UNTIL YOU HAVE IT CHECKED BY A PROFFESSIONAL GUNSMITH!!!!! The rifle MUST have been made after a certain year, I forget when. Smokeless powder is actually a propellant, whereas BP is an explosive!
As far as cleaning, hot soap and water, dry THOROUGHLY, and light coat of oil, in and out.
People, this guy needs more advice, soonest!!

gunnerd

Lead Forever!

[jdgabbard]

Black Powder is really not so terrible to clean up. You just have to make sure you do it. Otherwise you'll be seeing some corrosion in the barrel for sure. I would say stick with the black powder. Or you could go with something like pyrodex, or maybe trailboss. But you would need to do some pretty heavy research into what a suitable load for you rifle would be.

[OLPDon]

Ditto with the advice above. I use Pyrodex for my front stuffers as that is my extent of BP shooting. Pyrodex and its newer subsitutes cleans well and shoots alot cleaner. Cleaning is part of the BP shooting, I am one who doesn't like that part of BP but I surly like the Smoke and the Bang. If you want to keep that Kropatcheck and most of your fingers,,,, Use Only BP or BP Subs.
Don

[Bloodman14]

Toothmaker, let me explain a little better; smokeless propellant burns at a different rate in open air, as opposed to burning in an enclosed space (rifle chamber). Black powder burns AT THE SAME RATE regardless of open / closed area. The reason you can't use smokeless in a BP gun, is because the steel of a BP gun can't withstand the pressure spike of smokeless. Smokeless burns almost instantaneously, with little flame and smoke; BP, on the other hand, burns progressively, which is why BP guns tend to push instead of kick during recoil, and is why you get all kinds of smoke and flame out the muzzle. I heard somewhere that a guy with a BP gun had run out of powder, and decided to use some kind of smokeless, instead. He spent a few hours in surgery getting his hand and face sewn back together. Please don't even THINK about using smokeless in your BP gun, the consequences just aren't worth it to you or your gun!

gunnerd

Lead Forever!

[jonk]

Oy, CALM DOWN folks.

I suspect what we have here are a bunch of people who know some things about black powder but don't know anything about the Portuguese Kropatschek.

The 8X60R started life with the 1885 Guedes single shot. The round they adopted was a fairly odd duck; a small bore cartridge using a compressed charge of black powder. Not too different from the original .303 British loading really. Portugal quickly decided they (like everyone else) needed a repeater, and contracted with Steyr to make the 1886 Kropatschek- similar to the French 1884 in some regards, and in overall balance and function almost a clone of the Mauser 71/84. This was chambered in the same 8X60R black powder cartridge which, incidentally, was the most powerful black powder military round adopted anywhere, in terms of energy for a given mass.

However they had the misfortune of making a gun chambered in black powder the same year the French invented Pulver D, the first smokeless powder; and quickly looked to upgrade. In 1904 they would adopt the Mauser-Vergueiro in 6.5X58, but needed something for the interim. What they did was chop 4mm off the 8X60R case, switch to a nickel-clad 247 gr bullet, and switch to SMOKELESS POWDER. They did not alter the chamber, as the cartridge only differs in neck length. The new 8X56R Kropatschek shouldn't be confused with the later Austrian round with the same designation. This is a pretty stiff load but doesn't seem to bother the gun any. The Steyr made Mauser style turnbolt action is essentially the same action as you have on a Mauser 71 or 71/84, with most of the bolt locking done by the bolt handle bearing on the receiver bridge.

Lots of people shoot smokeless out of Mauser 71s and 71/84s, and even out of its weaker US cousin, the Trapdoor.

The Kropatscheck is easily doublely strong as the trapdoor in terms of inherent action strenth. The rifling twist and depth cry for smokeless.

So I surely would not hesitate to shoot smokeless and have done so whenever I've shot the gun. Here is a VG link to Kropatschek loading info from gunboards: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=9411&highlight=Kropatschek

[Bloodman14]

Just shows that you can learn something everyday!

gunnerd

[jdgabbard]

And I was kinda hoping he would try the Trailbox in that big rifle. Kinda want to see how it performs in larger capacity cases....

[Toothmaker]

Thank you for the in put. The kropatcheck is in very good condition like new. I have a question is Trailbox a smokeless powder? I've never heard of it but haven't heard of alot of things guess I'm still learning. Thanks again.

[Frank46]

Have about 6-7 origional ten round boxes of portugese kropatschek ammo. Since a few had split necks (you would too if you were made in 1912) I broke them down. Definitely smokeless. And from what little I've seen on origional ammo bullet jackets were either 247grains steel jacketed or some kind of copper nickle alloy. One is magnetic and the other isn't. Frank

[jdgabbard]

Trailboss is a smokeless powder. It was designed to give single action shooters a way to duplicate low power black powder loads, while virtually filling the case to avoid double charges that are so easy to get with low volume powders like bullseye or unique. The granules look like little donuts.

[Toothmaker]

thank you all for the in put again. I am just getting started casting my own bullets for the kropatcheck. I made my first casing today from a 348 winchester casing. The CH-4 dies for move the shoulder down worked well. The RCBS dies did the remainder of the work. I found I had to turn the casing at the base the case can be pushed in the chamber very easily the bolt will close but I think it is a little snug. Anyone have any ideas?

[Toothmaker]

I have a portugese kropatcheck also. Have you shot yours? I was trying to get a few rounds of original ammo any idea where I can find some? Thank you for your answer.

[jonk]

I find my Kropatschek is a tad snug as well. Part of the problem was squeezing the neck down from .348 to .323 thickened the brass. I neck turned and it helped.

[Bloodman14]

Toothmaker, try Old Western Scrounger for original ammo.