Dropping cast bullets into water?

[supv26]

Last night I did a search on casting bullets search on you tube. There are a lot of different videos out there on this subject and was very informative.

One of the things I saw that made me think was a guy dropping his bullets straight into a bucket of water right out of the mold. What does this do? Most of the other videos just showed them being dropped on to a towel.

[Willbird]

Running your mold as hot as possible and dropping the bullets directly into water makes your bullets harder. This is only true if your alloy will heat treat.

Some people heat their boolits in the oven after casting then drop the whole batch into water to heat treat them, this method may be more consistant than water dropping from the mold, and may allow you to get even harder bullets.

But the difference in hardness from WW alloy dropped from the mold into water is very dramatic, they are much harder than air cooled boolits.

Bill

[bcarver]

cools faster. make bullets harder.

[yodar]

Running your mold as hot as possible and dropping the bullets directly into water makes your bullets harder. This is only true if your alloy will heat treat.

Some people heat their boolits in the oven after casting then drop the whole batch into water to heat treat them, this method may be more consistant than water dropping from the mold, and may allow you to get even harder bullets.

But the difference in hardness from WW alloy dropped from the mold into water is very dramatic, they are much harder than air cooled boolits.

Bill

This heat treat process causes an intermetallic complex to develop between the Tin and the Lead in n the presence of a trace of ARSENIC

I can't depend on wheelweights having arsenic (they dont)so I pitch a teaspoonfull of chilled shot into the pot as I develop my alloy. if I want it REALLY hard i use Antimony-rich MAGNUM SHOT

Lacking arsenic, the hardening you get from quench hardening is temporary.

Reading the cast bullet handbook on heat treating bullets is a important thing here, and the importance of Arsenic is explained.

This aint witchcraft but it sure SEEMS like it ;>)

yodar

[uncle joe]

I tried using a bucket and a towel on top, but the towel kept falling in. Here is a pic of what I use now. It's a plastic shoe box from the dollar tree, with a small funnel glued into a hole on the top. I fill the box with water snap on the top and don't have to worry about water splashing into the mold.

[Dennis Eugene]

Or you could just float a bunch of styraphome peanuts on top of the bucket of water like I do keeps splashing down. Dennis

[mooman76]

Splashing a little water on the mould doesn't hurt a thing. The mould is hot enough that it dries instantly and it is usually a very tiny drop at best anyway!

[mike in co]

Splashing a little water on the mould doesn't hurt a thing. The mould is hot enough that it dries instantly and it is usually a very tiny drop at best anyway!

dont bet with the tinsel fairy on that statement.

my one and only visit from the tinsel fairy was from just such an incident.

open the mold, drop the hot boolits into a 5 gal pail, from about 3 feet. the boolits send droplets in a reverse reaction....drops go straight up.

i leave the mold open as a turn around, close and refill......WRONG.
a 2 cav and when filling the first cavity, it blew steam and lead upward, at the bottom of the pot, and a small amount hit the top of the web between thumb and finger.

now , i use some splash guard, and if even think there was drop near it i blow thru the mold as i close it.

and i cast hot........

i love water dropped boolits....but like all else in cast boolits...some care is needed.

mike in co

[BruceB]

My water-dropping method also uses a towel-with-a-slit, draped well into the water to minimize the fall to the bucket's bottom. To prevent the towel from dropping into the bucket, just use electrical tape completely around the outside of the bucket rim, over the towel.

If you're going to cast more than one bullet type in a casting session, put another towel/rag/whatever over the bullets already in the bucket from the first mould, and just keep right on casting with the next design. This routine can be repeated, and by picking up the corners of the cloth from each successive layer for removal, the bullets are kept separated by type. I've sometimes had four or five distinctly-different bullet types in the bucket bottom at the same time by using towels or something similar to keep them in layers.

In all the many times I've cast over a water-bucket, just ONCE I managed to trap a drop of water between the mould blocks. It was a very interesting feeling, as the steam violently forced the blocks apart. The "power" exerted on the mould (and my hand) was impressive indeed.

Mike, I was surprised to hear that the water in your mould survived long enough to do the nasty on you... just goes to show that we shouldn't take anything for granted.

[Wayne S]

Make a trough out of a piece of card board, secure one end to your bench and let the other end sit on the bucket lid and slightly in side, place a towel opposite the trough on the side of the bucket to keep bullets from hitting the hard plastic bucket.
keeps the water far away from the mold, the bullets may cool a bit more that going from the mold to the water but this eleminates and hazzard and keep you from bending over a lot

[mroliver77]

I have dropped quite a few boolits into a bucket without mishap. I elevate my bucket almost bench high at 9-10 oclock from my pot. I normally use Bruce B's method of the slit towel. Occasionally I get a splash on mold but wait to make sure it is evaporated. I did once after reading about it pour some lead into a wetted mold. Pretty much as Mike described it. I feel good about this. I usually learn things the hard way.
Jay

[JIMinPHX]

I'll jump on the band wagon here.
General rule of thumb for plain base boolits is that PSI/1440=desired BNH.
Hard boolits & dainty powder charges don't mix well. Also your boolits are undersized for your gun.

[Down South]

If you are using WW for alloy WQ will bring the BHN up to around 18 or so from around 12 BHN Air Cooled. The harder boolits can be pushed a little faster without leading. Lighter plinking loads up to mid range loads will do fine air cooled.

Also your boolits are undersized for your gun.
he never said what gun and size boolit he used so I wouldn't say his boolits are undersized just yet.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

A lot of good advice above and some innovative ideas for managing the bullet to be dropped into the water. This is more important than it may seem at first, but a drop...one single drop that goes the wrong way and winds up in your melting pot is a lot more catastrophic than a drop caught between the mold blocks. The explosion that ejects the bulk of molten melt is the result of that drop converting to steam that propels the melted alloy out of the pot with horrific force. So any precaution you take to minimize such an event is certainly worth the trouble in terms of eyesight and or burns. LLS

[Willbird]

This heat treat process causes an intermetallic complex to develop between the Tin and the Lead in n the presence of a trace of ARSENIC

I can't depend on wheelweights having arsenic (they dont)so I pitch a teaspoonfull of chilled shot into the pot as I develop my alloy. if I want it REALLY hard i use Antimony-rich MAGNUM SHOT

Lacking arsenic, the hardening you get from quench hardening is temporary.

Reading the cast bullet handbook on heat treating bullets is a important thing here, and the importance of Arsenic is explained.

This aint witchcraft but it sure SEEMS like it ;>)

yodar

I must have gotten very lucky with my WW because water dropped bullets all get as hard as woodpecker lips and stay that way. I never heard of Tin being needed to heat treat bullets ??

Bill

[mroliver77]

Adressing a drop of water in the pot exploding and propelling lead out I have never been able to reproduce this. I have dripped, thrown and poured water on top of my melt with it only boiling off. I am not saying this cannot happen but I could not reproduce it. One of my early casting sessions I dropped a cold boolit into the pot (on kitchen stove) and "kerblewy" lead all over the wallpaper. Wife wondered why I had decided to rewallpaper with no previous mention of it.
J

[Bret4207]

I've tried too Jay, can't make the pot explode. But, others say they've had it happen, so- safety first! Better safe than sorry.

[fatnhappy]

I had 40# of lead come out the side of a 50# plumbers pot. Either water was trapped in an ingot or the pot was already cracked. Either way that tinsel tree was amazing.

[bfox]

I just cut a slit in an old t-shirt and wrap a bungee cord around it on a 5 gallon bucket .

Put an ingot in the pot that must of had a little condensation on it .
Tinsel Fairy scared the Hell out of me .
A pop and lead everywhere .
Luckily it all missed me .

Bill

[Willbird]

Adressing a drop of water in the pot exploding and propelling lead out I have never been able to reproduce this. I have dripped, thrown and poured water on top of my melt with it only boiling off. I am not saying this cannot happen but I could not reproduce it. One of my early casting sessions I dropped a cold boolit into the pot (on kitchen stove) and "kerblewy" lead all over the wallpaper. Wife wondered why I had decided to rewallpaper with no previous mention of it.
J

When I was dumber I shoveled ice into my smelt pot with WW and no explosion happened, I DID however find out that rain drops make some pretty alarming thumps when they hit the molten metal in the smelt pot, it must have something to do with velocity.

I did get some wet WW into a smelt pot once and launched 50 lbs of lead that way, after that I only add WW to a cold pot and heat to melting, when that batch is done it gets a rest until another day :-).

Bill

[yodar]

I must have gotten very lucky with my WW because water dropped bullets all get as hard as woodpecker lips and stay that way. I never heard of Tin being needed to heat treat bullets ??

Bill

You haven't had the benefit of Bill ferguson (Antimonyman.com) and his advice on heat treating physics. I only use 0.5% tin for quality fill-out, and that's all that's all that's needed for the complex to form which permits stay-hard-bullets

yodar

[Down South]

The only time that I've ever had a problem was years ago when I added WW that were wet to a pot with molten lead in it. When I did that it cracked my pot plus sprayed lead everywhere. I’ve had a couple small incidents with small amounts of lead being dropped back into the pot that had moisture in them. I think the problem is when you submerge moisture or water back into the melt. I don’t think dropping water on top of the melt will create a problem because it won’t submerge by itself. The moisture must be trapped in another piece of lead or at least something that will put it under the surface of the melt. But I always do my best to keep water or any type of moisture away from my pot.

[Willbird]

You haven't had the benefit of Bill ferguson (Antimonyman.com) and his advice on heat treating physics. I only use 0.5% tin for quality fill-out, and that's all that's all that's needed for the complex to form which permits stay-hard-bullets

yodar

I guess my WW must have .5% naturally occurring tin, and naturally occurring arsenic too because I just smelt em, cast em, and water drop them, and they get hard and stay hard. They even do so in testing when alloyed 50-50 with pure lead cable sheating.

Bill

[Bret4207]

You haven't had the benefit of Bill ferguson (Antimonyman.com) and his advice on heat treating physics. I only use 0.5% tin for quality fill-out, and that's all that's all that's needed for the complex to form which permits stay-hard-bullets

yodar

Is Bill still doing alright? I heard he had a real rough time when Mrs. F passed. Talked to her on the phone a couple times, very nice lady.

I follow your line of thinking on the Sn. Seems a lot of us add tin cause Elmer said to and so did Lyman way back when. Expensive stuff these days.

[copdills]

I water quench all my boolits , at the end of a casting session I can dump the water out and place them on a towel to try ,plus makes the boolit a little harder . just easier for me

[windrider919]

I drop all my cast bullets into a 5 gal bucket with a slit towel not just for hardness but because I get less dings on the bullets vs the air dropped. I cast hot too and when the bullet comes out of the mould it is still a little soft. I actually had bullets crack when air dropped onto other bullets because they were not cooled to 'firm' yet. I cast hot only for 450 plus gr bullets because it takes a hot mould to fill out completly, no matter what alloy used. I add 1lb of tin to 19 lbs of WW

[docone31]

You add 1lb of tin per 19lbs melt?
That seems excessive.
I had to drop way down as my castings were brittle. When I add tin, I only add about 1" of lead free solder per 20lbs.
I run the mold at full tilt, and the mold where if I am casting fast, I have to let the mold cool down. Instead of dropping my castings in my water pot, I pour the casting back into the mold and rest a bit.
I have found, even though I paper patch, I get good fillout with a real hot mold. I use Lee Molds.
I have not had liquid castings with my .30cals, but I have had liquid castings with my 45. It seems the sprue will not freeze. I have also had it happen with too much tin in the mix. They also get brittle.

[windrider919]

You add 1lb of tin per 19lbs melt?
That seems excessive.
I had to drop way down as my castings were brittle. When I add tin, I only add about 1" of lead free solder per 20lbs.
I run the mold at full tilt, and the mold where if I am casting fast, I have to let the mold cool down. Instead of dropping my castings in my water pot, I pour the casting back into the mold and rest a bit.
I have found, even though I paper patch, I get good fillout with a real hot mold. I use Lee Molds.
I have not had liquid castings with my .30cals, but I have had liquid castings with my 45. It seems the sprue will not freeze. I have also had it happen with too much tin in the mix. They also get brittle.

Well, a little tin is needed for good mould fill out but most alloys have 3% or 4%. I am basically shooting 20-1 alloy which is not that hard because I have seen people shooting 10-1 and those were hard bullets. Other people shoot 30-1 which has enough tin to fill out but doesn't give that much hardness. I do not really remember but I think Lynotype has 5%tin and it is considered a standard alloy. I went to 20-1 because i have fairly shallow grooves and it takes a harder bullet to not 'skid' into the rifling when fired.

You said that you were only adding 1" of tin solder per batch? That is like a tiny fraction of one percent tin, if you go to the permanent sticky of the homepage section on bullet alloys you will find that you need more to even take effect. Not disrespecting you, just metallurgy n physics. It may be that this is a case of if you believe it is working then, for you, it is. Or it could be that your base stock already has some tin in it. The WW I am using have no tin, a friend a the local Jr. collage spectroscoped my batch of re-cycled WW and confirmed it. This lot of alloy came from 300# of WW that I melted in one batch at a local keel makers and cast into 9.5 Lb ingots. When casting bullets from my bench pot, every added ingot also gets 1/2 roll of lead free solder. Yah, my bullets might be on the hard side but I 99% shoot targets and harder shoot better. And when shooting game, well, I'm shooting .45 cal which is as large as those 25, 27, 28 or 30 cal shooter hope to expand to. Additionally, my bullets have the mass and inertia to knock down without fancy trick expanding J bullets. I never look to recover a bullet from a deer or sheep because it is going to blast on through, usually leaving a 1" hole coming out with fast bleed out and great blood trail. Never had to track anything yet using one since all the smaller game shot died within 10 yards or so. The only animals that are tough enough to take one of these in the boiler room and maybe run 40 or 50 yards have been wild cattle which are tough beyond belief. One of my uncles once shot a cow at 120 yards 4 times with a 30-06 simi-auto with 165gr soft points, none of which exited and that dammed cow ran for a 1/4 mile with its lungs pulped, liver exploded and a damaged heart. It just stood there, taking shot after shot until it suddenly bolted off at the 4th shot. We all thought he had missed until we found it and butchered it. When I shoot a cow or bull with my 45 cal cast bullet it it usually only takes one shot and the animal has rarely done more than take a step or so before dropping. Experience like this is why I stopped shooting the smaller cal. and went to the 45. I could relate similar personal stories, and by that I mean I was there and not just quoting about hunting elk in Washington and Oregon state. Up there I carried a 300 Weatherby and several times had to track other hunters shot animals for hours. And once I had to track one of mine, shot in the exact center of the lethal zone, rupturing its heart, yet that elk ran down the mountainside and along the valley for almost 250 yards before falling. There was almost no blood trail to track and we did not find it until the next day. It was cold enough it did not spoil, when we found it it was half frozen. When we quartered it to pack out I looked at the heart and there was nothing but mush. Traditionally the heart is eaten at camp in a hunters ritual my family honors but there simply was nothing to take back. If anyone else had told me that an animal had taken a single step with no heart I would have called that man a lier and been prepared to back it up physically. Yet that is what that elk did and it happened to me. I re-barreled that Weatherby for .458 WinMag when we got back to Texas and have never looked back.