8mm Karabiner questions

[HangFireW8]

I bought what was perhaps Midsouth's last 8mm Karabiner mold, for what I think is a steal. I realize this is a special purpose mold for old, worn military rifles, which makes it of great interest to me.

Anyway, I have some questions. A made up an alloy of 8 lbs WW, 15 oz of 60/40 solder, and 1 oz of lead-free solder (95 tin/5% antimony). (This reflects more of what I have on hand then a special recipe.) I started out with a cold mold and figured the first dozen boolits would warm it up, but that didn't work well. Then I started heating the mold by dipping a corner and then No matter how hot I set the Lee pot, or how much I warmed up the mold, I got sticky bullets and casting lines like you see in the picture.

Cold mold or hot, the bullets usually stuck and were a bit hard to remove, though not impossible.

I cast a hex nut in place, not to beagle the mold, but thinking I might polish it a bit to help it release.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? I'm thinking of going ahead and polishing the mold with a little 600 clover, but want some opinions first.

-HF

[docone31]

I found, lightly polishing the mold cavity significantly improved my Lee Molds. Go lightly, I do not believe it will hurt anything.

[Bret4207]

First off, where'd you get the idea it's designed for worn rifles? It was designed, IIRC, as a hunting boolit for the variety of 8mm Mausers out there, not for "old, worn military rifles". I've used it in my like new 48 Yugo Mauser and it's a great boolit. You did well in your choice, but I'm confused as to where you got that info.

Your alloy should be extremely rich in tin, richer than I'd use for this anyway. I'd use straight WW and have in the past with this mould with complete satisfaction. If you're having problems with release ( I don't see any picture in your post) it could be a burr some place. Search on "Leementing" here and you should get lots of information to help you. Polishing is an option, but try the Leementing ideas first.

[FAsmus]

Bret;

What is a "Midsouth" mold made of?

As one of the replies stated you're likely using too much tin, which will make the bullets form very closely to the cavity's size and shape. If they fit perfectly and have semi-square grooves then they'll resist falling from the cavity as you might expect.


Back off on the tin, see what happens.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Bret4207]

Bret;

What is a "Midsouth" mold made of?


Forrest

Forrest, it's a special run of moulds made by Lee through Midsouth that originated here several years back, along with the 8mm Max which was a heavier boolit more oriented to target than hunting like the Karibiner.

Nice run on sentence, eh?

[HangFireW8]

I forgot to post the picture. Here we go.

-HF

[HangFireW8]

First off, where'd you get the idea it's designed for worn rifles?

From this post:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=229257&postcount=9

Re-reading earlier threads, though, leads me to believe that the 8mm Maximum was designed for worn throats, and the Karabiner, for... well, now I know, it's for hunting, which is also fabulous. I like big meplats for hunting.



It was designed, IIRC, as a hunting boolit for the variety of 8mm Mausers out there, not for "old, worn military rifles". I've used it in my like new 48 Yugo Mauser and it's a great boolit. You did well in your choice, but I'm confused as to where you got that info.


In this case I'll be happy to be wrong. I have Mausers, old and like new and in between, if this boolit shoots, it will find a home.



Your alloy should be extremely rich in tin, richer than I'd use for this anyway. I'd use straight WW and have in the past with this mould with complete satisfaction. If you're having problems with release ( I don't see any picture in your post) it could be a burr some place. Search on "Leementing" here and you should get lots of information to help you. Polishing is an option, but try the Leementing ideas first.

Ah. You nailed it in one. This was my first attempt at alloying. Looking at my notes, I forgot to consider the Tin content of the WW. I have more WW and pure lead to work with, so I can bring it back a notch or three.

I'll check out Leementing.

Thanks, I knew there'd be help for me here. :-D This is a great forum!

-HF

[Bret4207]

Huh. Well, my rememberer doesn't work so good anymore, but IIRC the discussion on those 2 moulds ran along the lines of making sure it would work in as many rifles as possible, and that meant making it a little fatter than normal. Got me, just so long as no one is telling folks it won't work in new rifles too.

Okay, on your picture- that boolits shows signs of the mould being way too cold. Lee moulds tend to need to be run hot, that is you need to cast faster to keep it warm enough to throw good boolits. That off center nut won't do your mould any good if you try to polish with it. You want it centered as much as possible.

Check your mould over real well. See if it seems to have both halves lining up correctly. Check for burrs per the Leementing guides. One little burr can make it do what you describe. If you want to polish it lightly that's fine, but you still need to deburr it.

Add a few pounds of WW to your alloy and it'll still have plenty of tin/antimony/trace elements for good casting.

[Freightman]

That is one of the better moulds right out of the box I have gotten from LEE, I no longer have a 8MM but do size it down for one of the only boolits that will shoot out of a Enfield I have with accuracy. size it down after putting lube into the groves to .317 shoots great in the large Enfield bore without gas cks.

[Char-Gar]

Bret the Karabiner was designed with well worn military throats in mind. The nose is to fat to fit in my cherry Persian 98/29 and I have to seat the bullet way way deep for that rifle. Even so, it shoots like a house a fire.

When I get my #^$% together, I am doing to have Buckshot make me a nose sizing die to reduce it enough to ride the bore. It is a heck of fine bullet.

My mold was one of the first batch and drops bullets like shelled peanuts.

[Bret4207]

Huh, well, like I said, my rememberer doesn't work so well. Besides, I think I've read about 1000 discussions on different boolits since then. Well, it works great in my minty Yugo.

[Bret4207]

Ah, my research is producing something! Had to go back to the old board-

http://forum1.aimoo.com/Cast___Boolits__/Cast-Boolits/8MM-Karibiner-1-779230

http://forum1.aimoo.com/Cast___Boolits__/Cast-Boolits/8mm-Karibiner-1-96836

Check this one, especially post #14!!! Oldfeller ( I miss him, most of the time anyway) lays out the history-

http://forum1.aimoo.com/Cast___Boolits__/Ex-Military-Rifles/Need-8MM-Yugo-48-and-BRNO-Pers-1-142120.html


Now I'm going to search on my name and look up some of my old posts!

[HangFireW8]

Check your mould over real well. See if it seems to have both halves lining up correctly. Check for burrs per the Leementing guides. One little burr can make it do what you describe. If you want to polish it lightly that's fine, but you still need to deburr it.

I just finished Lee-Menting. No obvious burrs, and I couldn't get it to snag cotton from a q-tip, but...

The vent lines on one half of the mold, on one side of the cavity, didn't go all the way to the cavity. Each one ended in an invisible wall right at the cavity edge. The other three sides went through.

On the other half, the vent lines on one side of the cavity didn't go all the way to the outer edge. That may just mean the block surface fell away, but all lines run through now. I had to be extra careful scribing towards the cavity, but that tedious job is done now.

I polished with some Clover 400 (what I had on hand). I started with a wrench and then moved up to the drill/driver. The boolit/nut I used was so centered the mold barely moved in my hand. Can't say I see much difference, well, the cavity driving band tops are a little shinier than the rest of the mold. If I did too little, I can always do that job again, and it is not hard, either. Can't undo it if I do too much at one time, though.



Add a few pounds of WW to your alloy and it'll still have plenty of tin/antimony/trace elements for good casting.

Thanks for the confirmation, my new, revised spreadsheet agrees with you. :-D

-HF

[yodar]

I found, lightly polishing the mold cavity significantly improved my Lee Molds. Go lightly, I do not believe it will hurt anything.

Lee molds just plain dont release till they are smoked. I use a kitchen match as it is really sooty.

I CERTAINLY wouldn't apply abrasive (polish) of ANY kind to the 6 6-cavity lee molds I have. I use nothing harsher than a q-tip and simple green followed by alcohol wash and smoking

Perhaps I was careless in reading the first post, as I fail to remember whether his was a steel or aluminium mold

I have never had to smoke a steel (Meehanite ) mold, but it would sure help aid in release

New Steel molds require use of a magnifier to see if any little burrs from manufacturing, especially from the mold vents, project into the mold cavity. They have to be "pricked out" to aid mold release



yodar

[HangFireW8]

Ah, my research is producing something! Had to go back to the old board-
...
Now I'm going to search on my name and look up some of my old posts!

Wow! I thought there was some kind of back story missing from this forum. I didn't know about the "old board".

Six holes? Wow again. I'm content with my one banger.

Has anyone, there or here, compiled a list of 8mm Karabiner loads? I realize cast boolits in general and custom molds in particular are a more experimental thing, but I'd be happy to benefit from someone else's experiments (especially the failed ones).

-HF

[Bret4207]

HAR! There was another board before that that started this madness- Shooters is where us old timers met each other. There was also the CB-L list, but that was like going to purgatory voluntarily.

So far my Karibiner loads have been limited to my standard 13.0 Red Dot that is my go to load for anything with case capacity at least as large as the 7x57 or 35 Remington. 16.0 2400 is another standard and 8.0 Unique will often work, especially in smaller cases.

[HangFireW8]

HAR! There was another board before that that started this madness- Shooters is where us old timers met each other. There was also the CB-L list, but that was like going to purgatory voluntarily.

So far my Karibiner loads have been limited to my standard 13.0 Red Dot that is my go to load for anything with case capacity at least as large as the 7x57 or 35 Remington. 16.0 2400 is another standard and 8.0 Unique will often work, especially in smaller cases.

Thanks, Bret. That sounds great for plinking, I will be starting with an 8mm Turk. Do you think any of these generate sufficient velocity for hunting (I'm thinking 1700-1800 or more?) If not, does anybody have any other loads?

I have polished with Clover, scribed vent lines, cleaned with solvent, smoked, cleaned faces again, I think they are ready to go, next casting session. Right now, though, it is snowing. :(

-HF

PS I remember the implosion of shooters.com. Lots of unhappy people suddenly showed up all over the Internet, looking for new homes.

[Bret4207]

IIRC the 13.0 RD gives around 14-1500 fps. The 2400 load is about the same, but more suitable for knocking a few grains upward to the area you're looking for. Of course any of the slower powders suitable for the 8x57 with jacketed heavies would be good.

IMO, given good shot placement, the Karibiner at anything in the 1650+ range is adequate for short range hunting. Once you approach 2000fps you're definitely good. True, these aren't the knock'emontheirbutt loads all the gun comics tell you you'll need to kill a 120 WT deer, but they duplicate or surpass many of the older traditional deer cartridges like the 32-40, 38-40, 44-40, 25-35, even the early 30-30, 32 Special loadings. They certainly surpass the 357/44 mag/45 Colt area and no one questions them for deer hunting.

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.

[techlava]

I just got my LEE Karabiner mold from Midsouth and it's a twin! You should get it before it is sold out!

[Mk42gunner]

If I did too little, I can always do that job again, and it is not hard, either. Can't undo it if I do too much at one time, though.



That is exactly why it took me almost a year to get my Group Buy 314-120 running correctly.

Good idea to take it slow when modifying a mold, too many people want instant gratification these days.

Robert

[TAWILDCATT]

I have never had a bad lee mold.but I do prep them.I have never washed them either.I tried smoking but I did not see that it did anything.I take a fine stone and go over the face. a fine file and break the corners.turn up the heat and put mold in melted lead 10 seconds or so. you have to run lee hot and fairly fast.most of mine are 6 cavity,I wish he makes them for rifle when things cool down.I do know he has to get new extrutions and new machine.they aint cheap.
and I would not worry about a little out of round as the barrel will cure that.

[HangFireW8]

I just got my LEE Karabiner mold from Midsouth and it's a twin! You should get it before it is sold out!

Thanks. I just saw this post yesterday and immediately ordered one. I'll be very happy to double my production.

-HF

[JIMinPHX]

Lee molds just plain dont release till they are smoked. I use a kitchen match as it is really sooty.

The first year or so that I was casting, I used to believe that a mold had to be smoked or else it would never release a boolit. I've since found that a well cleaned mold will also drop a boolit easily. That even goes for Lee molds. I just tried out a brand new Lee 2-cav about a month ago. I cleaned it up real well before I started & I ran 2 full pots of lead through it with no trouble dropping the boolits at all.

I've been advised by others to smoke molds with a butane lighter & not a match because of the types of deposits that a match leaves. I've only used the butane lighter myself. I never tried a match, so I don't know if that's just an old wives tale or not.

[HangFireW8]

The first year or so that I was casting, I used to believe that a mold had to be smoked or else it would never release a boolit. I've since found that a well cleaned mold will also drop a boolit easily. That even goes for Lee molds.

I hear ya.

I just got a new Lee handgun 6-banger mold. There was tiny burrs, flakes, flash, etc. at the edge of every cavity. It wasn't visible except under a magnifying glass. Most were still there after a quick toothbrushing.

I can only imagine how many boolits it would take to "break in" such a mold. As it is, I removed them all with a sharp scribe, the magnifier, and some patient nit picking.

-HF

[dualsport]

I have the 8mm Max, it is a damn good mold. Basic clean up and bingo, beautiful fat boolits. Got my first Lee 6 cav. last month, it's great. Good useable boolits in no time. Also got RD mold here used, it's a joy to use. I believe Lee made it. My very best mold is an LBT. Anyway, back to the original question(I think), I've found using high tin alloys does cause stickier mold drop. If you wait a tad longer to drop them they fall out easier. By the way, has anyone tried the .45 6 cav Midsouth had? I wanted to get one, but they sold out before I could.

[45-70 Chevroner]

hangfire what is the purpose of the nut molded to the base of the bullet? I have been casting for a long time 39 years. I have not had any one to really converse with except my older brother and we both are self tought and any thing we learned we shared.
Also what is beageling? I have been learning to use a computer now for about a year. Some how I stumbled onto a Forum and then another and so on. There is a lot of information on here and other sites. Some of the lingo is a little strange but I am learning and thats not to bad for a 68 year old fart. A lot of stuff I have read I had already learned. I really like this site the best, I am signed up on five and that was not real easy for a computer dummy.

[Doble Troble]

I've started using a birthday cake candle for smoking new molds. I've done two Lee 6-bangers so far. The bullets jump right out of them - as if they had little frog legs.

[HangFireW8]

hangfire what is the purpose of the nut molded to the base of the bullet?

It is used for lapping the cavity. Use soft lead, and move the sprue plate aside. Try to keep the nut centered. Often the pour spout will do this for you, if the nut inside is small enough.

Lapping is used to clean up burrs and make a mold drop better, or more extensively, to slightly increase the size of the cavity.


Also what is beageling?

Beageling combines lapping with putting thin layers of tape in the mold. It is a way of increasing the size of the cast boolit by several thousandths instead of just one, as in lapping alone. Here is the link:

http://www.castpics.net/memberarticles/Bullet%20Diameter%20Enlargement.htm


I really like this site the best, I am signed up on five and that was not real easy for a computer dummy.

I like this site a lot as well.

-HF

[badgeredd]

In Castpix, under Member Articles, Enlarging Bullet Diameter...aka Beagling

Edd

[DanM]

I recently got both of the custom 8mm molds from MidSouth, and both cast well with easy bullet drop out. I scrubbed them with Zud cleanser, as usual, and smoked them with my propane torch and they both cast very well. I keep one torch that has the vent holes taped shut. Makes a good yellow flame that puts out a very 'fine grained' smoke. In the write up on MidSouth, it says that these boolits are ment to be single fed, and I have found that to be true in my M48. I am also playing with these boolits paper patched up to .334" for the M95 Steyr. Looks promising there, at least they feed well from the clip. Have shot the Karabiner at 2250fps and the Maximum at 2050fps with fair accuracy in my M95. All arrived too late in the season for serious testing until the weather breaks this spring. Cant wait!