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matm0702
01-24-2009, 04:27 PM
Hi Folks

Am new to paper patching and would like any suggestions. I have molds for Lee 185 .312 (drops .314) and RCBS 180 (drops .311). What paper wold be best for patching and what velocities can I get out of these two bullets? My alloy is water cooled WW. Bullets would be used in a Yugo M48A and 24/47. All suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Mike

Baron von Trollwhack
01-24-2009, 05:18 PM
Mike. I've done the same thing before. I suggest you lube and size the bullets first. I patched with both 9 pound and 11 pound 100% cotton rag bond paper. (.0015 & .0025) Deer hunting accuracy at 100 yards. Better to get the Lee 8mm mould, It cast well, close to .325/6, and worked better for me in my Commission rifle. BvT

docone31
01-24-2009, 07:01 PM
Get the mold for the caliber, I size mine .308, wrap and size to .001 over groove. I use standard printer paper.
Great results in my .308, and .303 Enfield.
I use a 30 cal mold for my 30s, and the .303 mold for my Enfield. I use standard starting loads for jacketeds.
Your .323 caliber will differ in the sizing.
The bore on my .308 is .301, my Enfield is .304. I size both of these to .308 then wrap. My .308 I size .309 after wrapping, my .303 .314 after wrapping.
I think the ratio of prime sizing, and final sizing is what you need for your 8mm.

bcp477
01-25-2009, 04:53 PM
I am no expert, but I'll tell you what works for me (for my M48). I use a purchased 170 grain bullet, sized to .314" (as purchased, they come in at .324").....patched (two wraps) with ordinary lined loose-leaf notebook paper to approx. .3236"....over either 28.0 grains (target load)....or 31.5 grains (hunting load) of IMR-4064.....Win. LR primers.....R-P brass. Both loads get approx. 0.5 grains of cotton wool filler, pushed lightly on top of the powder. The target load will shoot as accurately as I can....that is, 1.5" or smaller groups at 100 yards (less than 1", when I am shooting well). The hunting load is not quite that accurate, so far, about 2" groups are the best I have gotten. However, the hunting load is close to 2000 fps, while the other is around 1800 - 1850, through my rifle. I don't size my finished wrapped bullets as many here do, because there seems to be no need. But, I cannot speak about whether this is a better technique, in the end....perhaps it is. (I've considered getting a Lee .323" sizing die...and sizing my finished bullets to that dia., but I haven't done anything about it, yet.)

I would think that the Lee 185 bullet mold you have, especially if it drops bullets at .314", would be a nearly perfect starting point. I tried the Lee bullet in my M48, gas-checked....and it did very well. If I hadn't tried paper patching, that is the bullet I'd likely be using now.

beemer
01-25-2009, 11:31 PM
Since you are discussing paper patching the 8mm I also have a question. I have a Lee 185 gr .312 mould that drops .314. The bore riding section of that boolit is a loose fit in the bore of my 48. How far out the nose should I wrap the paper to give it proper support? I have used this boolit in the 303 and 7.62x54 with good results by sizing and wrapping the driving bands but the bore riding section is a tight fit.

There are some 311466 castings on my bench now that are drying, I wrapped out to the front band with thick tracing paper, they measure .327 while still damp. I have played around a good bit with the 303 and Mosin but haven't tried the 8mm yet.

beemer

docone31
01-26-2009, 12:10 AM
Hey Beemer!
Thanks for the help in my paper patching!!! I wonder why I have jacketeds now.
I have the same mold you do. I also got a .30cal of the same weight from Lee.
As of late, I have been wrapping to almost to where the nose ends, and the bore riding begins. My .303, slugs at .304. My casting measures .304. I have been patching to where the nose begins to taper. How about 1-2" at 100yds! My .30s measure .300, my .30 mold drops at .301. I have been patching to where the transition to the point begins. Same kind of accuracy.
If it were me, I would get the Lee 8mm mold, size it down, and patch it up just like you showed me how to do it.
I also went from Meade Traceing paper, to standard printer paper. I saw my first confetti when my wife and myself tried out these new wraps in my Ishapore 7.62. Hey, for 20 bucks, you get a designated mold to find the wrap size. I think it is the ratio that matters. I bet you can turn that Yugo into a tack driver like you showed me to do with my Smelly.
Now, after bedding the barrel to competition specs, I had to redo the scope mount. I gotta go sight it in again. I can start with some .311 jacketed loads, and finish with my paper patches.
I do have some .312 jacketeds in a pinch, but, I do like paper patching results.
I want to experiment with a copper wire jacket next.
I am tossing around, making two mandrels to wind .025/22guage copper wire into tight coils. I figuire I could cut them into half jackets, and modify another designated mold to accept the coils. I just have to figuire the diameter of the mandrel to finish at .310 so I can size to .309. Or possibly .3095 to size to .309.
This mold would have the lube lands reamed out to accept a given length of coil. The casting would be then poured. There should be little exposed lead for the groove diameter, mostly the outer profile of the wrapped wire. With a jeweler saw, the coils could be cut with little deformation. I do not think I would need to flux the wire, there would be no soldering involved.
I appreciate the start on paper patching! I dialed in very quickly. I have perhaps fired 500rds in both .303 British, and 7.62/.308 with excellent results. I mean, with the same rifle, outshooting match loads with sloppy loaded paper patched castings! By sloppy, I mean I use a scoop for tossing the powder. 2.8CCs in each. 38gns of surplus 4895.
Stellar loads.
I do want to try those half jackets next.
Why not?

beemer
01-26-2009, 08:54 AM
Thanks, looks like you have been shooting a lot more than I have. I haven't had time to do much latley. I will try the Lee 312 wraped full lenght. I also have the Lee 8mm and the Lyman 323470 so I have several options. My rifle is a M48 BO that has been set up with a scope, it is in unissued condition. I have had good results with plain cast and jacketed so I think that if I find the right combination it will work.

Why not was the reason I got into cast in the first place. Jacketed bullets got a little boring and a lot expensive. I probably don't save anything but I get to shoot more. You could work with cast a lifetime and still find something else to try.

beemer

pdawg_shooter
01-26-2009, 11:29 AM
Dont think you want to lube before you patch, The paper might stick and mess up accuracy.

docone31
01-26-2009, 11:35 AM
I wash off the dish soap I use to size with.
The results I have gotten indicate I am on the right track.
In other words, my castings are dry when I wrap. What little wax I use to size the patch with I do not believe affects the patched load. It is slight.
I size my primes with dish soap, then wash off, then wrap, then I use JPW to size with. The less, the better results. I then load.

yeahbub
01-26-2009, 06:25 PM
Welcome to paper patch experimentation, matm0702. A fun and an easy (relatively) thing to get good results with.

The paper I use and seems the most resistant to damage while wet is 100% rag drafting vellum in "E" size sheets, available at art supply places. That's a few hundred patches for a dollar or two. The paper is usually .0025, but I've seen it .003. If the strips are cut from the ends of the sheet there's plenty of stretch in the wet patches, so I cut them about .080 short of the ends meeting and roll them until they just meet. This causes the patch to shrink on tightly as it dries. Two wraps adds .009-.010 to a .314-.315 boolit which makes it .323-.325, perfect for 8mm. For molds that cast smaller, three wraps works, too. The C312-185-1R is a very good candidate for for use in the 8mm. My patches go from above the curve of the ogive to 5/8" or so below the heel so I can twist a tail on them. No part of the boolit designed for contact with the barrel is left unpatched. On mine, the bore-riding section is a snug friction fit when the round is chambered but can still be extracted easily without leaving the boolit stuck in the throat. Something that makes for the cleanest barrels I've seen so far is to patch with two wraps and dry, then add one layer of teflon plumber's tape and size to .325 with a light smear of soft bullet lube. Sizing irons the teflon tape into the paper and makes for a durable coating which has tightened my groups at full powered "jacketed" loadings.

The alloys I use range in hardness from water quenched WW's to range scrap at about BHN 8 or 9. For the short ogive found on most cast boolits, air cooled WW's work satisfactorily and seem the most convenient. The softer stuff is reserved for those I hope to get expansion/obturation from. I get better accuracy with a gas check than without, but there are those who seem to do very well without the GC. More power to them. Maybe it's the velocities I'm pushing them to. Assuming the throats/barrels are in good shape, you should be able to achieve velocities comparable to jacketed bullets. Accuracy at those velocities is another matter. You'll just have to experiment and see what you get.

Be safe! Have fun!

Larry Gibson
01-27-2009, 02:06 PM
I've found the Lyman 323470 (still available) and the 323471 make perfect PP bullets for the 8x57. They are both Lovern designs and when sized down to .315 (through a Lee .314 die - the .315 is because of spring back) they make a perfect PP bullet with a very long bearing surface which goes all the way to the nose. I lube them lightly with Dillon spray lube and the size down easily without distortion. I wash the lube off with Coleman fuel. The 323470 seats to the base of the case neck and just fits into the throat of most 8x57s. Two wraps of paper and lube the dried PP with Lee case lube and size in a .325 H die. I've been using a very soft alloy (lead/tin, BHN 11-12) and have been getting good hunting accuracy (2- 2 1/2moa) up to 23-2400 fps.

Larry Gibson

Hardcast416taylor
01-27-2009, 02:48 PM
I forget who on these threads about pp was going to try using the thin gift bag type stuffing paper. Anybody remember who that was or how his testing came out? :confused: Robert

matm0702
01-28-2009, 09:57 AM
Lots of info to digest here. Checked the different varieties of paper I have available
and found the following thicknesses.

Standard notebook paper- .002
printer paper - .0035
wrapping from commercial toilet paper- .0015
target pastie backing (birchwood/casey)- .0025

I'm also considering a .30 cal dia piece of thin cardboard in place of the gas check
stuck to the base of the bullet.
As for powders I have Hodgdon Varget, 4350,4198, Alliant Rel7, &2400
I'm thinking Varget may be my best bet as it's close to 4895 and 4064 in burn rate.
I'm looking at velocities ranging from 1800 to 2400 with accuracy determining where
I stop at.
Thanks

Mike

docone31
01-28-2009, 10:05 AM
The paper and tail of the patch acts like a gas check.
One less step.

bcp477
01-28-2009, 07:05 PM
Bear in mind that the thickness dimension of a given pc. of paper does not usually translate to how thick it will be, after wrapping and drying on a bullet. This is due to slight stretching of the wet paper....and shrinkage, as the patch dries. To dertermine the final patched diameter of a given bullet (wrapped with a given paper).....you must experiment. The thickness of the loose-leaf lined notebook paper I use is about 0.0025". The bullet dia. is .314". Wrapped (two wraps), my final, dry, patched bullet diameter comes out at about 0.3235". If the paper retained all of it's thickness....the final dry dia. would be about 0.324". See what I mean ? So, by all means, when searching for the "right" paper to use, as well as the perfect bullet diameter - DO experiment. All it costs is a little time - and you don't have to shoot the bullets until you find the right combination.

pdawg_shooter
01-29-2009, 09:19 AM
The weight of the paper will give you a good idea of final diameter. Weight divided by three times the number of wraps will be real close. 16#/3=5x2=10 or .010 increase in diameter.

matm0702
01-30-2009, 09:09 PM
I've started down the dark path. I've patched a few bullets cast from my Lee 185 .312 mold.
They drop at .314. I used regular notebook paper that measured .0025. Used 2 inch strips 1 3/8
inch wide. This leaves about 2 mm of the bullet nose exposed and enough paper at the base to make a tail without trimming. Tried Docone's cigarette roller method which I'm still learning the
technique. They do roll much tighter than hand rolling would produce. Will use some Lee liquid Alox for lubing and go from there. Will use starting loads of Hodgdon Varget and H4350. This will be a interesting experiment.

Mike

docone31
01-30-2009, 09:33 PM
Paper patches do not seem to need lube. I only use minute lube for sizing.
When I used the C312-185R with Meade Traceing Paper, two wraps, I got .3135. These I fired from my Enfield. They were a tad too light for the bore, and helped me find the .314 that I use now.
One of the benifits of patching, is it cleans the bore.
I am not sure I would use the Alox, just a smear of auto wax if neccessary.
Too much lube and it craps up the patch.
I never hand rolled the patch. I started with the cigarette roller.
I laid it in the roller, soaking wet. When it was rolled on it was damp.
Great luck with your targeting with the patched boolitts.
Let us know.

matm0702
02-02-2009, 07:45 PM
Looks like my first pp bullets are ready to fly. Am using 40 to 43 grains of Varget based on Hodgdons 2007 load data for a 200 grain jacketed starting load of 40.5. They didn't list a 185 grain bullet option so went with the next safest bet. No crimp was used. Brass is converted 30-06 rem brass and Win LR primers. Will be tested in my M48 which like my converted brass best.
Mike

matm0702
02-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Well my 1st attempt is a flop so far. It may be because Imy starting load was too high. 1st bullet did hit the bullseye but the next rounds spread on out. 4th and 5th
rounds weren't even on the paper. I did test one up close to check the bullet for
expansion but couldn't find it. I did find the left over confetti so I'm sure the paper was separating from the bullet on exit. My starting charge was 40 grains of Varget
so I may drop down to 30 and use a pinch of cotton for my next experiment. Nice thing about paper patches is its easy to pull the bullets if a mistake is made and try again. I may try some Reloader 7 or 2400 on the next batch and see what happens.
I did notice that the patches did their job. No trace of leading so far.

Mike

docone31
02-04-2009, 12:38 PM
Sounds like sizing, more than powder.
First off, that rifle has fired jacketeds most of its life. There is always some copper fouling in the bore.
Hence first one is a bullseye.
The next shots were like mine when I was .0005 too thin. I had 20 loaded rounds for my .303 at the .3135, so I smeared some Clover on them. All those went into the ring, whereas the unsmeared went everywhere but.
Paper jacketing is not like firing castings.
No roll crimp, tight neck, but not that tight.
I would go a little larger rather than drop the powder charge.
When I first patched, I went with .3135 as that was about what a casting load would have been. Too loose in the bore. I got confetti then. I used three wraps of Meade Traceing Paper. Two wraps were embarassing.
My .30s eat .309 all day long. Dead on with minimum starting load data. My .303 took some fooling around with sizing.
I do not know if this will help, but, to make my .303 fire well with patched loads, I had to open up my sizing die.
How many wraps of what produce what finishes size as compared to groove diameter?
.3236, according to bcp477 is his load, however he is loading real light.
What does your finished patch measure. Perhaps .324, or .325 might be the answer.
I feel bad in a way, I dialed mine in very quickly.
I might try .324 to start.

matm0702
02-04-2009, 05:57 PM
Hi Docone

Bullet dia is .324/.325. Now I didn't size these after they were patched. I let them dry after I rolled them and loaded them. My load data came from Hodgdon's 2007
annual loading manual for a 200 grain bullet (no 185 listed) to stay on the safe side.
Should I lube bullets and run them thru a .324 sizer?. Got a S&K mount today for the M48 so re-testing will be a bit easier with a scope. I can't see mauser sights worth a poot anyway.
Mike

docone31
02-04-2009, 06:40 PM
No scope on the first batch.....
There are several critical considerations.
Primary sizing. Looks like .314 is a going concern for the caliber. I would start there with the primary casting. If your casting drops .324, size it down. My .303 drops at .314, I size it to .308.
Then, wrap, and size it down to .324. That is probably going to be a good start. Bigger is better.
I like sizing the patched boolitts, it looks like the sizing hardens up the patching a little. I use dish soap to size the smaller size, then car wax, or JPW to size the patches. Just a little.
Here is another issue. Nose diameter. I noticed you are useing the .303 mold from Lee. That drops .304 on the bore riding. How does that compare with the 8mm? I have a feeling it is a little light to be stable. Lee has an 8 X 56 mold. That will have the bore riding portion compatible with your bore.
If the rifleing does not cut cleanly the bore paper, you will have feathers at the muzzle that could mess up the POI.
You are however, closer than I ever got my first few tries. If I hadn't stumbled onto the sizing by useing the Clover, I might have given up the ghost. I was .0005 off. That made all the difference. I was sized at .3135, and I needed .314. With two wraps of Meade Paper, I got .312. I tried that and hoped no one saw. I went home and tried three wraps just for the dickens. I got on paper, but could not control the POI. I went two wraps of notebook paper, sized to .314. Don't be in the black! I was definately pleased. This is at 100yds. I feel 100yds is a better range for testing as it shows up variances better. I had the .3135 all on the paper at 50yds. I was shocked at 100yds. Back to the wrapping board.
Mount your scope, bore sight it, sight it in, then try some wrapped paper at .324. My wife with her aperature sight on her Ishy, is printing a respectable 10 with patched loads at 100.
Once you get it dialed in, I bet we hear the whooping, and fetching and stepping from here.
Stay with your load. This is smokeless. I use surplus 4895. My type of Varget.
Black powder obturates the load, smokeless does not. Black powder explodes, smokeless pushes.

matm0702
04-01-2009, 08:34 AM
HI folks

Heres another attempt at paper patching this beast. I'm using a .314 Lee 185 for the basis of this experiment. The paper being used is standard loose leaf college rule
notebook paper cut four lines deep and 2.5 inches in length. I leave one line over the base of the bullet for a short tail which compresses nicely during sizing. I use a Lee .323 sizer which brings the patches down from .328-.329 to .325. OAL for my rifle is 2.935 with no crimp. I don't flare the case mouth as the patch is wrapped tight enough around the bullet base at where a gas check would have been to for a modest boat tail. I start the bullet in the case mouth by hand and ease them thru the seater. So far no tears to the paper. My brass is converted 30-06 Rem brass which has less run-out issues than original 8mm stuff. Powder load is 43-44.5 grains of Hodgdon Varget based on 195 grain Hornady data. Hope to fire these on my next days off. I have to thank everyone for their advice as this would have been a bit harder to pull off.

Here are some pics of the test rifle and my bullets

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/matm0702/th_DSCF0948.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/matm0702/?action=view&current=DSCF0948.jpg)
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/matm0702/th_DSCF0950.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/matm0702/?action=view&current=DSCF0950.jpg)
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/matm0702/th_DSCF0949.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/matm0702/?action=view&current=DSCF0949.jpg)
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/matm0702/th_DSCF0943.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/matm0702/?action=view&current=DSCF0943.jpg)


Mike:-D

docone31
04-01-2009, 09:35 AM
Looking good.
Paper might be just a tad high. The proof will be in the pudding.
I wrap mine fairly high.
Good looking, tight wraps.
Should do well.

matm0702
04-01-2009, 03:26 PM
Thanks Doc

I tried the cigarette roller but found I was better off using a folding table and wax paper to roll the bullets on. Not rolling cigarettes is a strike against me anyhow as I don't smoke. My patch fail rate is a bit higher and this usually shows during the sizing process but I'm getting better at it as I go. Will find out soon emough at the range. Patches that survive sizing is a 90% sucess rate in the 8MM but a 95% fail rate in the Enfield but My problem there is using a .310 Flat nose 30-30 that I got from a friend that still has the gas checks on. I will have to gat a .307-.308 sizer
like you use for the enfield to work.

matm0702
04-15-2009, 04:51 PM
Well the 8mm experiment is still a flop. Will try a different basic casting using a 30-30 projectile sized at .310. These just will fit down the bore of my of my 8mm.
They still have the gaschecks on them and I'm waiting for payday to order a .309 lee sizer so I can work with my lee 185's. I see the potential in paper patching but haven't had any luck so far. The only plus to all this is the Lee 185 shoots well in my enfield as it drops from the mold at .3145 and has good expansion at 2100-2200 fps.
I did the phone book test with one of the pp'ed bullets from the mauser on three 2 inch phone books. Entry hole was bullet diameter. At the back of the third phone book the exit hole was the size of a nickel and buried itself in the ground 12 inches past the exit. I dug for about 6 inches and could not find the round. Guess I'll bring a shovel next time. Basic casting was ACWW at approx 11bhn per a Lee hardness tester. Will patch up some 30-30 bullets and try again.

Mike

docone31
04-15-2009, 05:16 PM
Mike, is the nose diameter up to the Enfield, or Mauser diamter?
That might be an issue.

matm0702
04-15-2009, 08:22 PM
Hi Doc

Actually no. The Lee 185 drops down the muzzle to the first lube groove. It would have to be sized to.310-.311 to drop down the bore. It,s perfect for my No #4 enfield without patching with the nose being around .305. I think my patches were a little short as one of them wouldn't chamber because the patch bunched up to the case neck. Thats where the testing stopped. My Yugo isn't the most cooperative rifle when it comes to chambering anything other than spitzers or FMJ bullets. My PP bullets have to be fed single shot to avoid damaging the patches. I may wait till I get a .308 sizer and try patching the enfield as it's not picky about projectiles like the mauser. I also have a Finnish M39 with a tight .311 bore that would take to patched bullets.


Mike

docone31
04-15-2009, 08:32 PM
If it drops at .305, that should be ok. Mine drops at .304.
The more you do, the better you get.
It sounds like pretty soon you will have a tack driver.

techlava
07-10-2009, 04:06 PM
Anyone tried craft paper bags for PP 8mm?