Help With Prevent Leading

[Chas.]

This week I loaded some .44mag w/180gr RNFP (pic attached) and 11gr. Unique. I wanted some light plinkers.

Yesterday I shot about a dozen of these and had some leading.

Would lightly coating (those that are already loaded) around the crimp area with Felix lube help in preventing leading, or just gum-up the chambers?

http://www.missouribullet.com/cw3/assets/product_expanded/cowboy7.jpg

[waco]

what alloy are you casting with chas?:confused:

[Boerrancher]

I think I already know the cause of your leading, but before I open my mouth and possibly insert my foot I need to ask a few questions.

1. These look like commercially cast, are they?
2. What do all of the throats on the chambers measure when slugged?
3. what does the bore measure when slugged?

Now my guess with out knowing the answers to these questions and keep in mind this is only a guess, is that they are commercially cast, and they are a hard alloy. Too hard in fact for the light load you are shooting. The light load is not causing enough obturation of the boolit an it is not sealing off the bore properly, and this is why you are getting your leading.

If you cast them I would say that they are still probably too hard, and they have a bevel base which makes obturation more difficult, or they are a bit small for the bore. Either way this will cause some leading.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Chas.]

They are commercially cast. They are "cowboy action velocity" bullets that are supposed to be BHN 12.

The supplier agreed to "up" the hardness a bit so that I could shoot 1100-1200fps. I don't know if that was done with alloy, or water quenching. I suspect the latter. I received them about 6 weeks ago and I know water quenching is only temporary.

I haven't slugged the chambers, but the barrel slugs at .431.

The bullets were bought as .430 and when measured, my handi-dandi Harbor Freight Chinese caliper dances around .430 so they're close.

I'd rather not pull the bullets if there's any way around the problem. I pulled 50 45-70 bullets a few weeks ago, that were roll-crimped, using an inertial puller, and my nerves haven't returned to normal yet.

[garandsrus]

Chas,

You want the boolits to be .001 or a little more larger than the barrel. These are smaller, and possibly hard, both of which contribute to the leading problem.

Others will chime in, but you probably just need to shoot what's already loaded and clean the lead out of the pistol afterwards. If you do a search, you will find several easy ways to clean it out.

To use up the rest of the boolits, you might consider loading with black powder. It is supposed to bump up the boolits better than smokeless. It may allow you to shoot them without leading.

John

[Chas.]

Would shooting a few jacketed bullets after shooting the lead bullets assist in the lead removal, or just make it more difficult?

[Bret4207]

Yeah, they're too small by .002 at least. I'd shoot them up and clean with 4/0 steel wool or Chore Boy scrubbing pad around an old brass brush with a little Hoppes. The lead will come out in a few strokes. Some guys like to use jacketed to clean up, but IME that requires a square based bullet loaded backwards at about 6-700 fps to work well.

Next time take a softer boolit or at least one that's larger in diameter, ideally throat size +.001 if they'll chamber. You're far better off having a "slightly large" boolit than a "slightly small" one.

[Boerrancher]

Well I didn't miss it by much, with out knowing all the info. Bret has the right idea. Have fun shooting them and then clean the lead out of the bore. I also agree that the boolits are at least 2 thousandths too small.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Maven]

Chas., I'd also drop the charge to 8 - 9grs. of Unique.

[Char-Gar]

You wil find those commercial bb bullet are giving you leading becauses.

1.. They are too hard!
2. They are probably too small!
3. The lube is worthless

Commercial casts choose their alloy, bullet design and lube not for what they do in the customer's pistol, but for how easy they are to cast, pack and ship.

This is the reason why most of us cast our own.

[Airweight38]

...and I know water quenching is only temporary....

Wait, what? How does that work?

I'm only asking because I am new to casting and just started water-quenching. I was under the impression that this permanently made them harder. Is that not true?

[Chas.]

Wait, what? How does that work?

I'm only asking because I am new to casting and just started water-quenching. I was under the impression that this permanently made them harder. Is that not true?

Although I'm new to cast bullets, that's my understanding. But I don't know the schedule of the loss of hardening. You might search this forum for "quench" or "quenching" and get more info.

[Alex Hamilton]

Wait, what? How does that work?

I'm only asking because I am new to casting and just started water-quenching. I was under the impression that this permanently made them harder. Is that not true?
You can drop them into water straight out of the mould or you heat the bullets at 450F in an oven for 45 minutes and then drop them into water as quickly as you can.

For either method to work the alloy much contain some arsenic, which can be added with magnum shot. Only a small quantity is all that is needed, i.e. 0.5%.

The quenched bullets will start to harden immediately so any sizing, applying gas checks and lubricating must be done within half an hour. You can expect to achieve hardness of up to 30BHN with wheelweight alloy. The bullets will soften with age but the process is very slow and they will still be hard enough after a year in storage, even longer is stored refrigerated.

[Alex Hamilton]

This week I loaded some .44mag w/180gr RNFP (pic attached) and 11gr. Unique. I wanted some light plinkers.

Yesterday I shot about a dozen of these and had some leading.

Would lightly coating (those that are already loaded) around the crimp area with Felix lube help in preventing leading, or just gum-up the chambers?

http://www.missouribullet.com/cw3/assets/product_expanded/cowboy7.jpg

I agree with the other posters that those bullets are too small. Ideally they should be good interference fit in the cylinder exit holes. If the leading is slight you can try soft gas checks, which will reduce or even completely prevent gas cutting that causes leading and they work well in straight walled cases.

Have a look at www.caversham16.freeserve.co.uk for more details.

[yodar]

Would shooting a few jacketed bullets after shooting the lead bullets assist in the lead removal, or just make it more difficult?

all that will do is redistribute the lead into broader thinner layers

Believe it or not, a generous treatment with Kroil will loosen lead and ,metal fouling overnight, followed by the standard lead removal treatment the next day (chore boy fragments in jag) and cleaning with foam base MPro or Hoppe's Elite (same thing, rebadged) will socur out the barrel

yodar

[mroliver77]

I had some commercial hard bevel base clunkers once and shot them almost without leading by using a foam plug cut from a meat tray under the boolit. Not tight to powder but tight to boolit base. I also used wax cookies under same boolit with very good results. I forget the name but a feller made sheets of a red wax that you pushed over the case after charging with powder. I made some sheets of my own by getting an old skillet, melting lube in it until it was 1/16 deep, then letting it cool to a thin sheet. I loaded unlubed boolits this way with no leading.YMMV.
Alex Hamilton, I remember you from the old CB-L forum. Welcome here.
Jay

[yodar]

You wil find those commercial bb bullet are giving you leading becauses.

1.. They are too hard!
2. They are probably too small!
3. The lube is worthless

Commercial casts choose their alloy, bullet design and lube not for what they do in the customer's pistol, but for how easy they are to cast, pack and ship.

This is the reason why most of us cast our own.

question for Chargar and all

re: "lube is worthless" Y'all know I make me own lubes, mainly my hard lube is John paul's Saeco Green and my soft lube is Adrian;'s Goo (a Lithi-Bee derivative)

SO before then I actually bought lubes, mainly Thompson's Blue angel... and, ONE Cube stick from a bullet casting business, taken out after it was half used. It's a heater-needin' lube and today looking at it, I swear it is a stick of blue colored PLASTIC

It LOOKS just like the lube Chargar refers to in this discussion

This blue stick doesnt behave like it has a TRACE of beeswax, or alox or any other typical lube agent. It looks like blue polyethylene

has anybody ever analyzed this stuff? Sure wouldn't think it would work very well, tho I had no complaints using it. I just preferred Adrian's Goo

yodar

[yodar]

You can drop them into water straight out of the mould or you heat the bullets at 450F in an oven for 45 minutes and then drop them into water as quickly as you can.

For either method to work the alloy much contain some arsenic, which can be added with magnum shot. Only a small quantity is all that is needed, i.e. 0.5%.

The quenched bullets will start to harden immediately so any sizing, applying gas checks and lubricating must be done within half an hour. You can expect to achieve hardness of up to 30BHN with wheelweight alloy. The bullets will soften with age but the process is very slow and they will still be hard enough after a year in storage, even longer is stored refrigerated.



Yodar!
Words MEAN things

[Bret4207]

question for Chargar and all

re: "lube is worthless" Y'all know I make me own lubes, mainly my hard lube is John paul's Saeco Green and my soft lube is Adrian;'s Goo (a Lithi-Bee derivative)

SO before then I actually bought lubes, mainly Thompson's Blue angel... and, ONE Cube stick from a bullet casting business, taken out after it was half used. It's a heater-needin' lube and today looking at it, I swear it is a stick of blue colored PLASTIC

It LOOKS just like the lube Chargar refers to in this discussion

This blue stick doesnt behave like it has a TRACE of beeswax, or alox or any other typical lube agent. It looks like blue polyethylene

has anybody ever analyzed this stuff? Sure wouldn't think it would work very well, tho I had no complaints using it. I just preferred Adrian's Goo

yodar

I don't know what that stuff is either, but at one time guys were actually melting those cheap crayons you get at the dollar store for lube- using it straight. IIRC results were not so hot, but they sure looked nice. This was....I dunno, 10-12 years ago? Right about when I got my first computer and that was in '96 or '97, Windows '98 had just hit the market and was the big thing. It was all over the internet at the time.

I think those hard lubes take a lot more pressure than I shoot at to work at all.

[HangFireW8]

This week I loaded some .44mag w/180gr RNFP (pic attached) and 11gr. Unique. I wanted some light plinkers.


I had that exact problem with undersized commercial bullets, even though I took care not to buy hard cast.

I solved the problem by tumble-lubing in Lee Liquid Alox, right over top of the commercial lube. Leading problem, gone.

Not sure what you can do about the already-loaded ones. Running a patch with LLA through the bore before the first shot, and between cylinders full, might help.

Another possibility is bump-sizing the boolits up to a larger size. I've never done this. At least, not on purpose. :roll:

Hey, I thought of yet another possibility. That looks like darn good lead. I bet it'll melt in a pot just fine!

-HF