Cartridge obselence.

[JeffinNZ]

Team.

What dictates a cartridge becoming 'obselete'?

Is it when no one chambers a firearm for it anymore? Or when no commercial ammo is available?

[waksupi]

Yes......

[bobk]

Jeff,
That's a tough one. There are cartridges that fade in and out of popularity, for no earthly reason. I have a few of them. 6MM Rem, .257 Roberts, .303 Savage, .32 Special, all the weirdies. Then someone resurrects them. Marlin just reinvented the .300 Savage, and the .33 Win, so to speak. Give 'em a new hairdo, and a fancy dress, and they're the belle of the ball.
Bob K

[Bigjohn]

IMO, it is a long drawn out path to being deemed obselete.

First step would be the Firearms Manufacturers stop chamber firearms for that cartridge.

Second step would be when the ammunition makers stop producing ammunition.

Final step would be when most shooters stop using the firearms so chambered.

There is however nothing in the manual which says that they cannot resurrect a cartridge should the demand arise.

There would be many which fall into this catagory but take the .310" Cadet as a "case in point". It is declared obselete, however production of ammunition has been and on/off affair for many a year. Here in Oz, it is on again.
John.

[exile]

My take on it would be when Starline stops making brass for it. (Just kidding, sort of) My wish for the New Year is that Starline would start making brass for the .327 Federal. Seriously though, they have resurrected a lot of old, defunct calibers that way. By the way Jeff, how goes your experiments with the .380 Rook cartridge?

exile

[MT Gianni]

Both, ask the ones who went with the 5mm Remington in the mid 70's. Then there is the 9mm Federal and a few more short mags that will be in that category in 10 years, IMHO.

[JeffinNZ]

the way Jeff, how goes your experiments with the .380 Rook cartridge?
exile

Now it's funny you should ask. I am about to start writing my article on the .380 Rook and that is why I wanted to know about the obselete thing. The article will be called "Obselete my eye!"

Finally got a smokeless load shooting in it. Following Harry O's advice I was focusing on fast powders with little success. Then it suddenly dawned on me that Harry has a 7 inch barrel and I have a 27 inch barrel. Changed to H4227 and BINGO. Now getting 1.5 inch groups at 50m, better when I do my bit. Taking the rook rabbiting first weekend in Feb.

[jhrosier]

I think that the recent crop of short fat proprietary magnum cartridges will achieve obsolescence at a breathtaking rate. Some have already been abandoned by their originators. Many use some weird sized brass that can't be formed from anything else.
We may see some commercial rifles that are worth less than Mosins in a few years.:violin:

Jack

[Heavy lead]

I think that the recent crop of short fat proprietary magnum cartridges will achieve obsolescence at a breathtaking rate. Some have already been abandoned by their originators. Many use some weird sized brass that can't be formed from anything else.
We may see some commercial rifles that are worth less than Mosins in a few years.:violin:

Jack

I agree, I do have a 300 WSM and think that will stay, I had and got rid of the 7mm SAUM, the 300 SAUM and while they were good cartridges to work with in good rifles (the model 7's not 700's) they never did feed quite right and didn't do anything a 308 or 7mm-08 wouldn't do cheaper. Also although I had a full length 300 RUM I question the necessity of that as well, I still have a 300 Win Mag. and if I need a boomer I much prefer the 338 RUM, which is a great cartridge. As far as the Ruger stuff, wow, didn't see that one coming, I just don't need something with obscure and potentially real expensive brass, got my 416 Rigby for that and that's a true classic. As far as my favorite obsolete cartridge, by far the 284 Win.

[JeffinNZ]

I concur on the 'recent crop'. Can't see the .17HM2 lasting.

What I will repeat though is the positive side of all these new release rounds and rifles is market stimulation and while the market is buoyant we are a stronger unit.

[Heavy lead]

I think you're right Jeff, they'll be a lot that don't make it, but there was in the 50's and 60's too when there was a boom. I personally love having a choice. I do wish some of the seemingly dead ones would come back, 2 that I can think of that are great rounds are the 222 and the 6mm Remington, I'm thinking with cast the 6mm would be great with that long throat.

[218bee]

For some reason I am more drawn to the obsolete/near obsolete cartridges. I like the history of them and most can be quite useful. They do come and go from time to time as stated above. I remember when I felt I was the only one who used the 257Roberts and 6.5 Swede as my primary hunting arms...oh yeah 35Rem too. I am not a high-velocity seeker and most of the new cartridges are essentially blown out cases of an old round, or necked down to a smaller caliber so as to achieve more velocity. I can understand the idea...but as far as a hunting cartridge goes I WILL NOT shoot an animal past about 250-300yds....and with a decent bullet and a standard round depending on game being sought I don't feel I need the extra couple hundred feet per second. Thats just my opinion and have no quarrels with the velocity crowd....but for me practice,practice practice and being able to get close enough for a good shot with a rest is what I enjoy about hunting.
Some of my batch of current older rounds (obsolete??..not really) that I am enjoying reloading for are mostly handgun rounds... 32Long, 38 S&W, and (not handgun) 50/70. I guess thats why I like to reload so much...to play with something new to me and to dust off some older firearm and see if I can make it shoot.

[deltaenterprizes]

I think it is when the demand for firearms and ammunition reaches a point where it is no longer profitable to produce either one.
Profit is the motive of the manufacturers and when that is gone so is the motive, they can't stay in business making products that don't sell.

[No_1]

I must disagree. The 17HM2 provides ballistics that are similar to the parent cartridge but usable in a shorter action. This has created a new market for manufacturers that will utilize their current standard action .22 frames without costly developement of a completely new system.

Robert


I concur on the 'recent crop'. Can't see the .17HM2 lasting.

What I will repeat though is the positive side of all these new release rounds and rifles is market stimulation and while the market is buoyant we are a stronger unit.

[montana_charlie]

I am about to start writing my article on the .380 Rook and that is why I wanted to know about the obselete thing. The article will be called "Obselete my eye!"
I saw it in your opening post...but I let you slide. Now, you've done it again...but this time you say it's going to be in the title of a published ARTICLE!

Your editor may catch it before it gets to the printer, but you can't really trust anyone who has only been out of school for ten years. Most of them can't count out change, much less spell.

You want your title to read, "ObsOlete My Eye!"

A very modest royalty will be sufficient compensation for my help...
CM

[JeffinNZ]

Thanks Charlie. My spulling haz itz momints.

[StrawHat]

I'm sure you can count a cartridge as obsolete when the manufacturer ceases amking ammunition for it. When Winchester stopped making the 405 WCF it was doomed until Hornandy chose to ressurect it.


posted by: exile My take on it would be when Starline stops making brass for it.

I have a different take on Starline, when they START making brass it could be considered obsolete! Yeah, the make 45 ACP and 45 Long Colt (both will be here for a while) but they alos make 44 Colt and 50-70 both of which are niche cartridges. Although... when they quit making a cartridge case I quess it really is a no seller. Obsolete or dead!

Many cartridges went the way of all things when the gov't abandoned them. The 60-70, the 30 Gov't, the 236, all held on for a while with shooters than quietly faded from the scene. (You can carry that trend back to muzzle loaders). The American shooter wants something he can buy cheaply and feed even more cheaply. Few of us willingly buy the "600 Overmagnum" and spend $15 for each cartridge. I know I won't, especially when it is newly introduced. I will buy older, "obsolete" firearms and handload them.

And not all cartridges go quietly into the night, the 45-70 has been on its death bed with writers many times in the last century and it has a bigger following than 50 years ago.

[Bret4207]

Think about the ones we've seen come and go just recently- 8mm Rem Mag, all the 41AE types, a bunch of super hot 9mm types, the 9MM Federal and that electronic Remington gun and round. Thats to say nothing of all the short and long magnums, the Layne Simpson series, all those Lazzeroni and Warbird, Firebird etc. cartridges. Same goes for most of the 17 RF rounds, I give them 3-4 years. One will last, the rest will fade.

Lets face it, there's not much that can't be done with a 22 LR, 22 Mag, 222 class, 22-250 class, 250 Sav/257 Roberts, 270/280, 30-30/32 Special/303 Sav, 308/30-06, 35 Rem/Whelen, 300/338/375 Mag, 44/444, 45/70/458Mag. In handguns a 22, a 357, 9mm. 44 mag and 45ACP. Throw in a 12 gauge and the list is done. Kinda boring though, ain't it?

[Boerrancher]

My father and I were talking the other day about all of the cartridges that have come and gone over the years, and ones that we thought would be on their way out. The WSM's were on the top of the list. When I walk into Wal-Mart, K-Mart etc, and look at their firearms selections, as well as what is sitting on the racks at the local gun shops, it is not the WSM's. What seems to be selling is the old reliable 30-06, 270win, 308, 243, 223, 30-30, and in the belted mags seem to be 300 win mags and 7mm Rem mag.

To answer Jeff's question of what makes a cartridge Obsolete, I would have to say when there is little to no demand for it. Many cartridges are obsolete before they are even manufactured. If people won't buy and use them, they are obsolete, while others are nothing more than a flash in the pan. I think there are a couple of factors in determining if a cartridge will live or die. One is practicality. Look at the 30-06, it is over 100 years old, and still very popular. The reason is there is nothing here on the continent of North America that you can't hunt with an 06. Is it the best round for everything, no, but it will do just about anything you want it to. The second is common brass. It either has to be/have been a military round, or just massive amounts of ammo manufactured for it. Also, is it made from something that is available.

Best wishes from The Boer Ranch,

Joe