SAECO 315 or Lyman 311041?

[Marlin Junky]

Which of the two (SAECO 315 or Lyman 311041) would be the best for shooting small groups at HV? Shootin' iron would be an '06.

MJ

[bobk]

I lust after the 315, already have the 291 and the 466. When the snow starts to go away, I will get the 315. I think Ben was hot for that one. But really, any of the 4 (including the 041) have done well for a lot of shooters. It's all up to your rifle. But I would like to hear of your results, as the '06 is one caliber I want to work with.
Bob K

[runfiverun]

i like the looks of the 315

[C1PNR]

I just think if you're not hunting, you probably don't need the larger meplat of the 041. That and the TC nose of the 315 seems to me a better design for HV, which you did mention, and maybe a better BC for longer range shooting.

Don't know if I'd even charge $0.02 for the above, but there it is.

[Marlin Junky]

Perhaps you guys that own SAECO 315 can indicate the typical as-cast diameter of its WW boolits on the 5 bands and cylinder portion of the nose. It looks like a fine design but at 80-90 bucks per 2-cavity mold, I'd like to know what I'm getting. The overall length (either w/ or w/o check) would be helpful too.

Thanks,
MJ

[R.C. Hatter]

I have had considerable experience with #311041 in my 03-A3 and found it to be accurate with Accurate 5744, or Alliant's 2400 either one. I have found enhanced accuracy by seating the boolits out, exposing one grease ring & the band below it as well. The same applies to Lyman's #311291, which I think is likely the best all around
.30 cast bullet. I've not had any experience with the Saeco 315

[runfiverun]

m.j., ben has a 315 mold iirc. and he would [i bet] share numbers or maybe some boolits with you.

[lead Foot]

How long has the Saeco315 been on the market? I have only just seen it on EBAY. $122.03 Australian plus plus plus.

[bobk]

MJ, and lead Foot,
Graf's has one in stock for $80. I am thinking about just doing it. Now, what would shipping be like to Australia, moneywise?

Bob K

[Scrounger]

If I remember right, you can send a Flat Rate Priority Mail there for $16. Not bad at all...

[bobk]

Too late, I called Graf's. maybe it will be here by next week. Lady at Graf's said they were behind on shipping. But it's a perfect inauguration day present for myself.:-D
Bob K

[GabbyM]

MJ you haven't said of you're looking to hunt or focus on punching paper. I've got this 180 grain from Mnt. Mold that's kind of a Lyman 3110041 improved. More lube and fatter nose. Bore ride is tapered .302” to .304”.
Pictured with a Lyman 454190 this #311672 with tapered front band looks like it should get up and go then keep going. Mine weighs 164 grains cast from 50/50. Nose comes out at just over .300" on mine. Even with the soft alloy which is heat treated.

From what I've seen on this site of peoples one hole targets with Saeco's #315 it must be a good one. I tried drawing up a #315 copy on mnt mold but you can't get the small meplat long TC nose like Saeco cherry cuts it. All those lube groves lower the B.C. so they are a mixed blessing.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=32&pictureid=459
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=32&pictureid=458

[Char-Gar]

SAECO 315 has many features of a Loverin mold, which is a good thing. Those who use it report exellent results. Do a search on this site and you will come up with the information you want.

SAECO 305 is another design that is worth attention. While it is sold as a .303 Brit mold, it is nothing more than a fat version of their 30-30 bullet. It will run .313 to .314 on the body and .302 and .303 on the nose. It is a crackerjack bullet for the Marlin MG barrels in 30-30.

[Ben]

Marlin Junky :

My SAECO 315 is sent off to Rick for HP'ing right now, but I've got plenty of the 315' solids cast up.

The OAL of the " as cast " bullet is 1.014 "

If you'd like to look at a slideshow on the 315 , click below :

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/SAECO%20315/?albumview=slideshow

I've taken a photo for you and taken my mic and measured the bullet for you. Keep in mind this is with AC/ WW's with a " touch " of tin added to make them fill out well :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0001-19.jpg

And yes they shoot, probably one of the most accurate .30 bullets that I shoot now in my 308 Win's and my many 06' rifles :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMG_0376.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMG_0654.jpg

The 31141 HP is also super accurate :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMG_0382.jpg

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the info Ben. Have you ever pushed 315 really fast? I'm looking for a bullet with 1MOA potential at HV from a typical '06 chamber. Paper targets to coyotes are my game. I sure wish I got into this game early enough to collect all the Lyman .30 cal Loverin designs... especially 311407, and I'm sure there were others.

MJ

[lead Foot]

The Australian dollar has has dropped to $1 AUS = .65c US Places like MIDWAY won't send to Australia. A friend has a SAECO 315 and has been beating me at benchrest for months now and didn't tell me. Last shoot he shot 25 shots in a row all under 1.1/4". He paid $200. last year. So if you know anyone who can send a mould to Australia I would like to know. US post sounds cheap.
lead Foot

[Scrounger]

Lead Foot: If you want I will check prices on Midway and shipping it to Australia for you. I hate that double shipping but I don't see any way around it.

[Ben]

M J :

No, I've never fired the 315 at HV.

Best to all of you ,

Ben

[CSH]

I have a 4 cavity 315 that I picked up several years ago. Like all of the other Saeco moulds in my collection, it doesn't cast much over nominal diameter. I don't have any notes in front of me but IIRC the bottom band casts right at .310" with straight WW, while the front is closer to .301". I haven't shot any of these boolits in several years, but accuracy from a Savage 10FP (308 Win) was around 1.5 MOA using milsurp 7.62 brass and surplus 4895 @ ~ 1800 fps. This was without any special attention to the brass or boolits other than visual inspection, nor a lot of load development. In fact I only tried a couple of powders with charges that produced velocities in the 1700 - 1900 fps range. The rifle is capable of 0.5 - 0.75 MOA with jacketed, so I have no doubt that the boolits could be made to shoot at MOA or better with more trial and error. I never really tried to step on the gas petal with this boolit so I can't address velocity potential. My gut tells me that since only the very rear of the boolit is at full groove diameter it would not be a good candidate for hot rodding. I have fired the 311041 (WDWW) at 2300 fps from a Weatherby Vanguard 30-06 with good accuracy (1.5 MOA) using 60 gr WC860 and LBT Blue Soft.

That price for a 2C 315 is shocking. I paid $60 for my 4C, but of course that was 7 or 8 years ago.

[bobk]

Scrounger,
Graf's had it for $80, for the DC, website said they had only one. Might check with them. I bought one, so their inventory might be zero, or might not.

Bob K

[lead Foot]

Thanks Scrounger I would appreciate that.
lead Foot.

[dualsport]

Working up loads for my M1 Garand 30-06 from CMP. First, what a sweet gun, they really give you your money's worth. I tried the Saeco over 42 gr. AA2700(actually Data Powder 79) which is similar to Win 760 and got 3" groups at 50 yds. in a hard rain. (I really wanted to shoot). Not too impressive. Then I tried 42 gr. old WWII 4831 and things improved, got a 2 1/4" 5 shot group at 50, with 4 in 1 1/4". Moving over to the 100 yd line,, with the 4831 I got the first three shots in 2", then choked and opened the group up to 4 !/4" 5 shot at 100, which is good for me. I'm no expert and the M1 has a heavy creepy trigger, I'll get that fixed. The Saecos were WW +tin+ant and HTd, very hard. Sized to .310, gc, and Lyman lube. All in all a very good day at the range, and there was even a rainbow pointing at my target! Took a picture with my phone.

[Doc Highwall]

dualsport, I would not recommend using powders slower then IMR4320 in a gas operated gun as they have higher muzzle pressures causing the op rod to come back too fast and bending the op rod. I would use powders around 4895 - 4064 burning speed.

[BruceB]

" I would not recommend using powders slower then IMR4320 in a gas operated gun....."

It's bad enough to encounter this MYTH on a forum where folks know virtually nothing about cast bullets. It's VERY disappointing to see the myth repeated here, in the very Internet home of our hobby.

CAST BULLETS ARE DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do some searches for "Garand", and "M1", and "FAL", and "M1A" to actually see how well the rifles do with slower-burning powder and cast bullets.

The belief and advice against using slow-burners is correct, with JACKETED bullets. It is not correct when loading cast bullets, even in the beloved Garand.

Do the search.

[Larry Gibson]

Which of the two (SAECO 315 or Lyman 311041) would be the best for shooting small groups at HV? Shootin' iron would be an '06.

MJ

Mj

Please define "high velocity"?

Also please state your expectation of accuracy at said velocity?

Larry Gibson

[dualsport]

Doc, although I am in the same school of thought as Bruce regarding slow powders with cast bullets in the Garand, I do appreciate your sincere heads up. Thanks. I would have never considered using these powders if it were not for what I have learned on this site. I have only recently taken the cast plunge with my Garand, so far it's been good. For what I have in mind I need all the velocity I can get, shooting milsurp silhouette matches. It has been fun and I can save my stash of HXP for a rainy day. EDIT; I have bought a used Lyman DC 311284 which will arrive soon, I'm excited about duplicating the Bob S. load. I'm also optimistic the old 308334 will be a shooter. My goal is at least a 190 gr. bullet with a BC over .300 at 2200 fps. We'll see. Right now I'm going for extremely hard oversize boolits, .312 chambers easily in my gun.

[dualsport]

Worked up a new load for the M1 30-06. Saeco 315, linotype, sized in .310 sizer with Lyman lube on first 3 grooves, then TL with LLA/JPW/ms to a light golden brown. Now here's where it gets good; 42 gr. WWII 4831, under 1/2 gr dacron, under 7 gr. COW. This is a lightly compressed load and the OAL is too long for clip use. I single load them. Also, this is a highly experimental load which I don't recommend you try without careful research and consideration. Estimated velocity is 2200 fps. I will be using this load in a milsurp silhouete match Saturday. The reason for all the 'extras' is my intention of shooting 60-70 rounds without leading and my plan to up the velocity a little more with this bullet if all is well. This is just a step in the direction of full tilt(or nearly so) cast loads for the Garand. It may turn out the dacron and COW are not necessary, but I haven't crossed that bridge yet. Also on the menu in the future for the same matches is a 6.5x55 Swede, a 91/30 MN, a Savage No 4 .303, and some Mausers, maybe even the Jap 7.7. I have shot similar loads in a CZ 550 FS 30-06 bolt action with a 1/12" twist with good accuracy, about 2" for 5 shots at 100, with a scope. Once again, I don't recommend this load or method to anyone.

[Char-Gar]

Bruce.. Thanks for the corrective. I know it is hard to do and mostly unappreciated, but this site has grown by leaps and bounds which is a good thing. The downside is allot of myths and bad information has come with the growth. You along with allot of the old hands have worked very hard at the craft and moved cast bullet shooting forward. It is frustrating to see some of that ground lost with the influx of new folks.

In this internet game, anybody with a computer and an opinion is an expert. I try very hard not to talk/post about things of which I have had no personal experience. I have a Garand and some cast bullet, but I have yet to put them together. When I do, I still have 60/WC872/311407 written in my notebook to try. I think that would be classified as a sloooow powder.

[dualsport]

Not good. Shot the milsurp silhouette match yesterday. Got two out of forty. Those were pigs at 300 meters, shot in my first string. After that things went wild, chasing the sight settings, no consistency. Looking down the bore I could see there was leading near the muzzle. I changed a few things with this load after the first test, which went well. First, I was out of the home made boolits that were super hard and used some commercial boolits I got back before I got the mold. Being linotype I thought I'd get away with it. There was what I think was a lube issue, there was no lube star on the muzzle. After the match I went over to the 100 yd. line to shoot some paper to see what was going on. I fired a few fmj rounds to clear the leading, then shot a 5 rd. group from a bench. The first three went 1 1/2"!! Then #4 and #5 went out by about 6-7". Checked the bore again, leading near muzzle. Next time I'll use my own boolits HT'd and try lubing all the grooves with BAC White Label. I'll also experiment with some 311284s now that I have the mold. Oh, also, the shots on paper had no dark ring around the holes at all. That's a lack of lube, isn't it?

[mrbill2]

I know nothing about M1's and cast bullets. But I have shot alot of silhouetts with cast and know that linotype is not a good choise. The lino disintergrates when it hits the steel target and transfers little energy to move it. Wheelweights, air cooled at about 1700 will work much better. I've see people hit chickens at 50 with hard bullets and could not understand why they were not falling over.

[dualsport]

Thanks Bill. Now I realize I hit a lot more than I thought, they just didn't fall over! That also explains why my spotter couldn't see the hits in the dirt. I feel better, but I may switch to a bolt action for the next match. There's a couple there who shoot Swede M96/38 as issued, usually clean the course. This milsurp silhouette is really fun.

[mrbill2]

Mr. Dualsport, follow this link for more good imfo on silhouette shooting with cast.
http://www.lasc.us/

[stephen perry]

I would buy both the Saeco and the Lyman mold. I always feel one will out perform the other in your rifle but how do you know which without having both.

Does anybody know what handles fit a Saeco mold. I have Lyman and RCBS.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[dualsport]

I use Lee 6 cav. handles for my Saeco 315. It was necessary to grind off a little metal to get them to fit, not much trouble. The Lee handles are a bargain.

[dualsport]

Mr. Bill2, you can call me dual. I looked at that lasc site. Thanks for the info. They really really get into silhouete. I may be leaning that way myself, it's more fun shooting reactive targets than paper.

[lotech]

I've had the #315 and the #311041 moulds for many years. I haven't cast with the latter in a long time, but accurate loads can certainly be developed with each. For best accuracy, however, I'd go with the #315. I seldom use it anymore, only because I prefer heavier bullets, around 200 grains, for most .30 caliber cartridges, except the .30-30 in lever guns.