oldendays

[357maximum]

I use real BP and I clean my frontstuffers in the tub with an ice cream bucket of hot water then use moosemilk to finish up. I do not use anyyellow stinky lubes either so it works out well,,,but i wonder...........

What I want to know is what did the fellas that did not have a hot water source do to clean their then state of the art fowlers/longtoms/kentuckies and such have for a cleaning regimine in the bush or on the battlefield?

[45 2.1]

I use real BP and I clean my frontstuffers in the tub with an ice cream bucket of hot water then use moosemilk to finish up. I do not use anyyellow stinky lubes either so it works out well,,,but i wonder...........

What I want to know is what did the fellas that did not have a hot water source do to clean their then state of the art fowlers/longtoms/kentuckies and such have for a cleaning regimine in the bush or on the battlefield?

Go to the Dixie Gunworks site and look for "worms", "tow" and "Tompions" (sp). You'll get a good idea of how little they had to work with.

[northmn]

It was mentioned that D. Boone would swab his rifle bewteen shots. Likely if time permitted he ran tow throught the bore and cleaned it before loading. A rifle fired once is not all that dirty and cleans fairly easily. I have often thought that the tallow patch lube was as much for greasing the bore for protection as for shooting. In the older days a load stayed in the weapon until fired and they did not shoot as much as we do. Many originals will still have a load in them and one has to be careful when buying them. Another thought is that barrels were commonly "freshed" out. Again I suspect from corrosion and not from shooting as it takes a lot to shootout a ML barrel.

Northmn

[StrawHat]

First, with the exception of target shooters, they never thought of cleaning their rifles the way we do today. The average hunter would jsut run a patch ofr two down the bore and finish it with a tow soaked in tallow. Just enought to caot the bore.

I first read about this in Muzzle Blasts and believe it was authored by Vickery. Anyway, I knew it could not be so and went out of my way to prove it wrong. Many years later I still find it a good way to keep a shooting rifle going strong. This is probably not a good way to store a rifle but for one that you use a couple of times a month it works suprisingly well.

Ross Seyfried also did an article on this subject in some magazine.

[boommer]

Vinegar and water, Alcohol water. Windshield washer solvent works great on those frosty days and warm days too! It 'nice to have hot water but not necessary.

[waksupi]

I have found that cold water cleaning is more effective than hot water. I don't use soap. Hot water seems to set the fouling harder when you clean with it. If you want to use hot water to aid in drying, clean the bore with cold first, and follow with a hot water rinse.
I don't use the hot water at all any more. Once I have used the cold, until water is running clear, I set the gun upside down for a couple minutes to drain, then use pieces of paper towel to swab the bore dry. There may be some grey showing on the towel yet, but the firearm will not rust because of this.
The paper towel is more efficient than a cloth patch for drying the bore, as it has a better absorption rate.

[357maximum]

I have found that cold water cleaning is more effective than hot water. I don't use soap. Hot water seems to set the fouling harder when you clean with it. If you want to use hot water to aid in drying, clean the bore with cold first, and follow with a hot water rinse.
I don't use the hot water at all any more. Once I have used the cold, until water is running clear, I set the gun upside down for a couple minutes to drain, then use pieces of paper towel to swab the bore dry. There may be some grey showing on the towel yet, but the firearm will not rust because of this.
The paper towel is more efficient than a cloth patch for drying the bore, as it has a better absorption rate.

I will try that and see, I have always used HOOOOTTTT water...thanks

Basically I just wanted to know how "THEY" did it.


:twisted:Now I just want to know where BOONE and Crocket purchased windshield washer solvent ,...and why:twisted:

[boommer]

windshield solvent,Just a way of cleaning on those cold butt days on the range when other solutions freeze up.
The gray waksupi is talking about is probably contaminated wax from the lube and lead residue wont hurt any thing but IT,S NOT CLEAN and would NOT store it away for any long length of time.
Now as far as Boone and Crocket there guns were a tool not how some people want to romanticize their firearms if we could actually see their working guns they would be in tuff working order I bet!

[oldhickory]

According to the book, "Gettysburg, Culps Hill and Cemetary Ridge" by Harry Pfanz, Soldiers in battle often used anything they could get their hands on to clean their muskets as best they could. I remember reading of a unit retiring from battle to clean muskets that were too fouled to load anymore, cutting patches out of their shirt tails and using sweat and urine for solvent, (but not precious water from canteens).

I've cleaned P53 Enfields in the field using cold water and patches ran down the bore with the knurreled head of the ram rod, Springfields required some sort of jag or worm to be placed on the threaded end. Squads always had hickory rods with a jag end for serious cleaning, but field cleaning was done with the ram rods and various tools to fit it with what ever patches were available.

There was also ammunition known as the Williams cleaner bullet, it was a minnie with a zink washer attached to the bottom (via a stem) to scrape fouling from the bore. I have no idea how effective these may have been. Cannon were cleaned using buckets of cold water and sponge rammers until both gun and sponge were clean and dry, (one sponge for water, another for drying).

After any major battle the Quartermaster Corps and Provost guard were responsible for clean up and recovery of gov't property abandon on the field. Tens of thousands of abandon muskets at Gettysburg had to be found, checked for loads and cleaned, then reissued. This process can be read about in some detail in Greg Cocco's book, "Gettysburg, A Strange And Blighted Land", (you'll need a strong stomach, as it deals a good bit with the removal and internment of the dead, treating the wounded, and the general stench of a July battlefield).

[357maximum]

Hickory's account sure makes a guy appreciate ballistol and hot running water. :mrgreen:

A battlefield in July...that cannot be very pleasant now...ewwwwwwwwwww that smellllllllll

[waksupi]

Boommer, I don't believe I have wax in the bore, as I never put wax IN the bore. It is just some left over powder residue. Once the corrosive salts are neutralized by the water, they do no harm.

[bobk]

On the subject of cleaning, sort of, I have read that it is inadvisable to leave a ML loaded for long periods of time. A couple of weeks ago I remembered that I had loaded my 12 SxS a long time ago, maybe ten years, and hadn't fired it. Now, I had taken two pieces of red boiler gasket rubber and put them over the nipples, and lowered the hammers. I decided to see if it would fire at all, and clean it afterward. I went outside, put two caps on, and fired in a safe direction. Both barrels fired, and the recoil felt normal. I half expected to see real rust in the chamber area, but the bores were shiny and smooth all the way to the breech. I cleaned it, and put it away.

I don't live in a particularly low humidity area, either. This unintended "experiment" used regular 2F GOEX. How this might have turned out with 777, Pyrodex, or whatever, I have no idea. But as the oldtimers said, "Keep your powder dry!" If you do, it doesn't seem to hurt anything.

Here's a question, though. Does hot water relly work any better than cold water?
Bob K

[mooman76]

It doesn't hurt to leave a ML loaded. I wouldn't advise doing it but the powder doesn't become corrosive until fired. I don't like leaving them loaded because I am to forgetful and it would be like me to stare it that way for years.
There was someone here that said he was taught by an old timer to clean with cold water first and then finish with hot so it dries quick or something to that affect! I don't do either myself usually unless I get a hair. I just clean with a water based cleaner, than dry good and lightly oil.

[northmn]

I am with Waksupi and quit using hot water. It seems to cause more rusting. Now I use anti-freeze as in Prestone. Paul Matthews recommended the stuff in his cartridge gun books and it works. As to leaving the guns loaded, that is a debate in itself. Last hunting season I would swab the bores with clean patches until I could see no oil and leave them loaded in the garage with a toothpick in the vent for the flinters. Experimenting with them I found they fired after a weeks carry. When I used to hunt with a percussion double I found that if you fired one barrel and loaded quick on the dirty barrel that it would likely misfire the next time it was used unless you pulled the nipple and put a little 4f in as a primer. The BP does draw humidity. Same for flashing off a cleaning charge in a flinter. Thats why I just swab the heck out of them.

Northmn

[Charlie Sometimes]

I've always used HOT, soapy water in a bucket.
Swab until the water turns completely black, then dump it out and rinse with hot water.
Let the barrel sit for a few minutes, to dry, then run a patch with alcohol on it through the barrel, sit a minute, then swab with a geased patch to coat the inside of the bore.
I use natural lubes- bore butter, crisco, etc. and have never had a barrel rust.
I think this is a seasoning process like you would find on a good iron skillet- it helps protect the bore and seals it from rust.
It also makes for a smoother bore that doesn't need cleaning as often bewteen strings of shots.

[rick/pa]

Cold water works well for cleaning, all you need to do is dissolve the corrosive salts left behind from the combustion of black powder. It also doesn't clean out all the oil in the pores of the bore as does hot soapy water. It does no good to season the bore after cleaning if you've already cleaned all the oil out of it by using hot soapy water in the first place. For many years all I've used is cool tap water to clean, then dried the bore, oiled with Ballistol, and then greased the bore with RIG for long term storage. I started shooting ML's in 1962 while in high school and started building my own in 1975. If hot soapy water works for you and you like it by all means continue with it, there are no hard and fast rules that say you have to clean just one way. This is just what works for me after trying both methods.

[357maximum]

* *this is not meant to sound sarcastic so do not take it as such**

Could someone please explain to me how todays modern steels are "seasoned" ??


If steel could be "seasoned" how would you ever get a mould clean of oil trapped inside the metal? I know they come clean of the storage oil...so please splain it to me if you will...thanks

Michael

[waksupi]

Modern steel does not season. The old iron barrels would, to a certain extent. What people think is seasoning, is a coat of beeswax that is part of the lube, that they aren't getting out of the barrel.

[357maximum]

Thats what I was thinking...personally my bp guns are not "CLEAN" until a 20 stroke ticking patch comes out with nothing on it. I then put one moist ballistol patch down the bore give her a few strokes and then move to the exterior, then store in an open rack where I can see "things". I will get a hint of grey on the first dry patch the next time I prepare to shoot, but that has to be a ballistol/metal thing of sorts.:-?


I have no use for borebutter, and I find the propaganda it comes with insulting...but that is just me being me.:twisted:

[boommer]

metal is porous and oils will seep in, especially under pressure. The harder the steel , the less porous Try welding steel that's been oil or fuel soaked for sometime just washing it with a solvent and see what your weld looks like compared to grinding the surface. It's just not oxidation cleaning of the metals,but taking the contaminants from the surface. I've welded enough on dump trailers were they used Diesel fuel to keep loads from freezing the floor and sides in the winter plus other oily pieces. Oils seep though all metal to some extent so seasoned barrels are possible.

[rick/pa]

I really don't like the term "seasoned" in large part because of the advertising hype, but use it to convey the sense of oil remaining in the pores of the metal. The remaining oil protects the bore just as grease in a cast iron skillet does. A good cast iron skillet should not be cleaned in hot soapy water because you don't want to remove all the grease from it. The old muzzleloading barrels were made of soft iron and to some extent I believe the modern barrels are made of a softer steel than one would be for a high power rifle. I'm no barrel maker and not an expert on the subject so if someone has more specific info please chime in.

[KCSO]

I have a copy of a 1801 hardware dealers catalog from England. In 1801 they had everythinng we have today in terms of jags, worms and loops. As to the actual cleaning process, it don't take much to make hot water and bear oil made an excellent lube. Many times i have cleaned in the field with water heated in a cup over a small fire and finished with a swab of bear oil. If you read the first Little House book it goes into detail about cleaning a muzzleloader. Sperm oil was widely used and was still popullar for M/L in the 1950's and early 60's. I bought a gallon of Sperm oil in 1967 and used it till 1979.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Seasoning is possible. Even iron skillets (granted they are cast iron) do not get completely clean in hot, soapy water- that's why the build up is there. You don't scrub them with wire brushes every time you use them to get it completely gone, but something soft doesn't hurt the coating build up. Even glassware for cooking needs "broken in". There are pores in everything.

The whole process I considering seasoning is also about smoothing the bore, like you would when you get a new high powered rifle- the shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean for so many rounds process. It removes the high spots and smooths over the low ones (burrs, pits, etc.) Maybe that isn't the best terminology, but it works for me.

Especially when the metal is hot or warm, the oil/ grease will seap in faster/deeper because there is more room in the granular structure of the metal. Heat with pressure does it when you're shooting (that's what is on your first dry patch) - there will always be something there as long as no serious solvents are used. If you heat treat cast bullets, you are rearranging that structure and distributing the alloy differently throughout the bullet. The space allows that to happen. We are adding a oxidation blocker or inhibitor to help seal the barrel to prevent rust until the next shot.

[357maximum]

Charlie


OK makes sense to me. I have broken cast iron pipes in my old line of work:twisted:backhoe always wins:twisted:...it does have pores that are visible...so I guess it stands to reason on the microscopic level there is likely to be pores in steel also. Now I can stop wondering where the grey stuff comes from on the first pass...water/dawn/prell/ballistol are the only solvents my smokers ever see, so I guess I will never get a perfectly white patch after I sit it in the rack for a bit///////I can live with that,thanks fellas.

I have put a file to both a smoker barrel as well as a HP cf barrel...there is definately a difference as far as hardness/ductility is concerned.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I saw that Green Mountain barrels are made from 1137 steel- don't know what that means exactly (no chart to tell me) but some others manufacturer's were listed as modern high carbon steel. So, to me that would be like good pocket knife steel. They turn darker with use, too. Kind of like blueing on a firearm, I guess. So it "seasons"?

[boommer]

I think I'll just wash my barrel with hot or cold ,soap, windshield solvent or what ever and work on skill. Pores are in metal and analyze how you want! But there is something to seasoning the barrel.

[northmn]

As to barrel steels. The 37 in the 1137 stands for the amount of carbon in the steel at .37 of 1 percent. Carbon added to steel actually promotes rust and oxidation. Wrought iron rusts very little. Early barrels were made of very low carbon content and some may have been made out of wrought iron. It was said that some of the early Southern rifles as in Tennessee rifles were made with soft steel and that the gunsmiths could swamp them using a draw knife. whether that is true I do not know but wrought iron is very soft. It may also explain why some of the American barrels were made so heavy. English guns used lighter barrels with less barrel wall thickness with good results, but were said to have better steel. Many also had servants to clean the guns. On another thread it was mentioned that Getz at one time made a 13/16" 50 cal, which would have very thin walls. It was tested with something like 400 grains of powder and did not blow. Todays barrels are made to duplicate the old ones with modern steels. I don not know anything about "seasoning" barrels. Some of the cheaper barrels seemed to "shoot in" or smooth out for easier loading after a 100 shots or so. this was especially true of the old Numrich barrels. After reading several threads on the subject of lubes and the use of the original guns, I have come to a conclusion that the tallow patch lube was used to protect the bore by cleaning it and greasing it when loading as well as to protect the patch on ignition. The older guns could be carried for long periods without firing. If you do not clean a ML barrel after shooting it will rust. Hot water works, but no better than cold water. Some of the commercial lube cleaners are very good and prevent rust if you want to put up with the cost. When I cleaned my BPC breechloaders I got a real education on some of the cleaning solutions. I could see the results. The absolute worst was carburetor cleaner that one individual recommended.

Northmn

[Geraldo]

For TC's I've always removed the barrel and used a bucket of warm/hot tap water, then dried it inside and out, followed by a generous coat of oil (usually Cleanzoil, but I've used others), after which I run a dry patch down to remove any excess. In humid weather (90% of the time down here), I also shoot a bit of WD40 down the barrel then swab it with a dry patch.

For other muzzleloaders, I've used cold or warm water, TC BP solvent, or windshield washer fluid and the same oiling method.

I've always been in the habit of wiping between shots because much of the competition I shot in required it. The cleanest my rifles have stayed is when wiping with windshield washer fluid, followed by a couple extra patches of the same when done shooting, then a very quick cleaning with warm water at home.

I've never understood the supposed rust protection properties of Bore Butter, so I only use it as lube on Maxi Balls or patches.

[mainiac]

metal is porous and oils will seep in, especially under pressure. The harder the steel , the less porous Try welding steel that's been oil or fuel soaked for sometime just washing it with a solvent and see what your weld looks like compared to grinding the surface. It's just not oxidation cleaning of the metals,but taking the contaminants from the surface. I've welded enough on dump trailers were they used Diesel fuel to keep loads from freezing the floor and sides in the winter plus other oily pieces. Oils seep though all metal to some extent so seasoned barrels are possible.

I work at a pulp-paper mill,and have welded on vessels that held liquor,black,green,etc. The metal welds like crap, and some of the sights ive seen in the puddle are undiscribable,let alone the stink!!! Corrosive liquors difinatly soak into the metal-quite a ways.

[boommer]

mainiac I'm no pro welder but growing up on the farm then 30 years in trucking and excavating
I can only imagine what others have seen, like your talking about there. So I take it, you could say that a barrel could be seasoned even after a soapy hot bath. I don't think soap and water will clean out what the first fouling shot wont put back in. I clean my front stuffers and Bprc rifles clean no residue on the patch then oil. Windshield solvent works great on the range and the red de-icer works better than the blue but still use hot water and JOY soap when I get home.

[Charlie Sometimes]

They make those windshield deicers now with smell-good in 'em, too. Think that helps any?
Not only will you look good on the range, you'll smell purtty, too. :kidding::bigsmyl2:

I've used the windshield fluid before- wondered about the stuff that doesn't freeze until after the brass monkeys do, and how effective it was, but it costs more than soapy water. I might give it a try again and see- I've got some sitting on the front porch right now I can relocate. [smilie=1:
It's water based- couldn't be much "solvent" in it, could it?

Boomer said "So I take it, you could say that a barrel could be seasoned even after a soapy hot bath. I don't think soap and water will clean out what the first fouling shot wont put back in."
I think he said it good, and it kinda goes along with what I said about a different kind of seasoning process.

Northmn said "Some of the cheaper barrels seemed to "shoot in" or smooth out for easier loading after a 100 shots or so. this was especially true of the old Numrich barrels."
I agree with that completely- I had a Numrich/ Hopkins & Allen that I shot so much I shot the rifling out, and then replaced it with a factory replacement that took longer to break in than before. That probably has something to do with it too- each gun barrel will be different, for sure.

As long as your not using MEK, or something strong and unnatural, I think you probably can't go wrong.

[northmn]

Since I shoot flintlocks, I do not have a patent breech area to get clean and prefer to leave the barrel in the gun. A pipe cleaner through the vent is about all the extra I need. The biggest thing in gun cleaning is to see that the barrel is very dry before oiling and as such I do not flood the system with liquid. Generally I like to go back in a day or so and run another oily patch down the bore. Diferences in approaches.

Northmn