A question about different powders

[omgb]

A shooting buddy of mine sent me this question. I had no answer. Perhaps one of you has an idea.


..."It's a 40-65
400 grain round nose bullet no compression
Excess bullet space filled with cream of wheat
Light crimp and bullet set nearly to the lands
First load 23 grains reloader 7, very light recoil
with my sights set at 2.0 degrees I am right in the center at 100 yards and
about 1 1/2 inch groups. Not bad but I think I can raise this to about 28
grains.

Second load 28 and then 29 grains of IMR 4198. The patterns were at about
2.5 inches. Still worth look at further but they were all 10 inches high. I
had to set my sights to 2.8 degrees to get back into the center. The recoil
was a bit stiff. I thought that RL 7 was about the same energy of 4198.
Could the RL 7 be so much faster that it would take 10 inches off or the
trajectory an have so little recoil. If so how much RL 7 can a Browning 1895
BPCR High Wall take."

R J Talley

[45 2.1]

Most of your problem is the cream of wheat filler. It reduces the available combustion chamber. Small changes in charge give big changes in pressure, it is no longer a 40-65 that the manual gives data for (unless they are doing the same thing). Be very carefull when you fill the air space up with COW.

[Dale53]

I know this may be a bit of a shocker to you (:>)), but why don't you try black powder in this rifle. This is a WONDERFUL black powder cartridge rifle. I have had mine for several years and have shot it in many BPCR Silhouette matches. This rifle shoots extremely well with black powder. In front of witnesses, I have fired ten shots in six inches at 500 yards. It is not something I can do every time (conditions at the time of the firing have LOTS to do with results) but the rifle is capable of a high degree of accuracy.

Clean up takes but a few minutes. I use a good black powder solvent. Three wet patches followed by two dry and then a patch soaked in a good preservative (I use Break Free) and the bore is clean. Wipe off the outside and you are home free. It is important to decap the cases and soak in a soap and water bath. I do this at the range (decap and drop in a water filled jug with a squirt of Dawn Dish washing detergent), then rinse when I get home and drain and throw in the vibratory tumbler (with ground cobs and a bit of Dillon Case polish). In a half hour or so the cases look like new.

FWIW
Dale53

[omgb]

No shocker to me Dale, I shoot BP. However, my buddy wants a smokeless load for this rifle so who am I to question him:) Any way, it's his deal and I'm trying to help. I use 5744 when I'm loading grey powder in my 45-90. That aleviates the use of fillers. My buddy prefers not to use 5744 so, he needs some help from others who feel the same.

[SharpsShooter]

I'd second Dale53's opinion. BP is the real deal for the 40-65. You will find extremely equal (Low ES) velocities from shot to shot and reoil is not unpleasant at all. I use windsheild washer fluid for cleaning solvent and WD40 for preservative. The High Wall is a tough action, but you are trying to drive an old horse caliber at racehorse speed.

FWIW

:coffeecom

[waksupi]

I'd second Dale53's opinion. BP is the real deal for the 40-65. You will find extremely equal (Low ES) velocities from shot to shot and reoil is not unpleasant at all. I use windsheild washer fluid for cleaning solvent and WD40 for preservative. The High Wall is a tough action, but you are trying to drive an old horse caliber at racehorse speed.

FWIW

:coffeecom

SharpsShooter, I don't remember all the details, but I do know that WD40 is a bad thing to be putting into a bore.

[omgb]

Some guys use WD 40 and swear by it. I found that using any petrol based oil where it comes into contact with BP fouling is a huge mistake. It interacts with the fouling and produces a nasty black, hard cake. Maybe Sharpshooter dries his bore first, he didn't say but I assume he does. I coat my bore with Whitelightening bullet lube and wipe it dry before I shoot. I use BP most of the time in my 45-90. Sometimes however, I just don't want the hassle of a blow tube and all of that dirt/soot/crap so, I go to 5744. My buddy usually shoots BP too, at least the times we've been out together so I'm not too sure why the interest in smokeless. As to the relative strength of a modern Highwall action, they will easily digest loads in the 30,000 CUP range and if one wanted to, they will do more. I see no need to hotrod like that though and that isn't what my buddy is trying to do. The loads he listed are pretty tame. He/I was just hoping some intreped experimenter had tried a few other combinations with the afore mentioned powders and that he might learn from their experience. That's all. I love BP, I do, I swear.

[Buckshot]

...............Gee, I was kinda hoping someone would answer the original question 8).

BTW, a target I shot with my 40-65. Five rounds, 100 yards benched.

http://www.fototime.com/E3932A18D38C8CD/standard.jpg

...............Buckshot

[omgb]

Buckshot said...."...............Gee, I was kinda hoping someone would answer the original question . "


Me too. Unfortunately, the issue of smokeless in BP cartridges is like bringing up religion or politics...the discussion is emotionally charged and easily taken far off track. Is there anyone out there who has some experience with the actual issue I broached in the original question? If so, please feel free to step in and make comment.

[45 2.1]

Buckshot said...."...............Gee, I was kinda hoping someone would answer the original question . "


Me too. Unfortunately, the issue of smokeless in BP cartridges is like bringing up religion or politics...the discussion is emotionally charged and easily taken far off track. Is there anyone out there who has some experience with the actual issue I broached in the original question? If so, please feel free to step in and make comment.

I did answer your question, what he is doing is changing the characteristics of the cartridge with the filler. The combustion space is reduced. You no longer have a 40-65!!! Be carefull as no 40-65 load data is useable that is published unless it is developed the same way and with the same filler. If you must guess, find the useable combustion area that is left and plug it in to Bass Ackwards Quickload to get an idea, which is all it is since the filler is pouress and compressible to a degree. If you do find the useable area, compare it to like volume smaller cartridges, such as the 40-50BN to get a better idea.I, like Buckshot, use SR 4759 in these cartridges since it gives excellent accuracy. I have taken the 40-50BN up to 1700 fps with a 300 gr. bullet and 1550 with a 350 gr. bullet, but the best accuracy occurs at a lower velocity.

[waksupi]

I believe the WD40 warning, had to do with the stuff actually attacking the metal. It's not a preservative, it's a water displacer. I think it was on the Cruffler page I came across the info, long ago.

[44man]

I would not use cream of wheat!! I would use dacron. You are increasing pressure just like you would if seating the boolit real deep.
NEVER use WD-40 in a gun! It drys hard and leaves deposits that can't be removed. I get a lot of guns to fix from the PA farmers that buy WD-40 in 55 gallon drums for their farm equipment. Of course, they use it on their guns too. The stuff will fill and seize a firing pin hole in a bolt action and nothing will desolve it. It has to be removed with tools. If you want to have fun, spray some in your car locks! It is OK to use ONLY on the outside of a gun. I would not use in the bore or working parts.

[Dale53]

I do hope that I didn't come across like some "evangelist for BP". I use both smokeless and black where indicated. However, while this does not answer the question asked (for that purpose, I would just use 4759 and NO FILLERS), have you tried duplex. Duplex, as in 10% smokeless charge behind a case full of BP. This is a perfect legitimate way of loading and does NOT create any problems like chamber ringing (quite possible when using fillers or a dacron wad over the powder charge). If your regular BP load is 65 grs (purely arbitrary number - use the actual charge) then reduce the BP charge by 10%, put 10% smokeless under the BP, put the rest of the BP in the case, compress as normal, and seat the bullet. Lyman Cast Bullet manual shows actual pressures with the 45/70. This works extremely well - pretty much all of the benefits of straight black powder without the fouling problems. After you are finished (blow tube is not necessary and you can literally shoot all day without ANY fouling problems) use the same clean up you do with straight black powder.

Understand, this is only for practice or hunting. NRA BPCR Silhouette mandates STRAIGHT BLACK.

Dale53

[wills]

Arent those new browning highwalls made to take the pressures generated by that white powder stuff?

Ought to shoot black anyway.

[omgb]

Thanks guys, now we're getting somewhere. Personally, I never use fillers as I have heard far too many negatives. With 5744 there is no need to any way. As to duplex loads, honestly, I've never used them either. I just might though. I suspect that 5744 might be too fast for duplexing any ideas?

As to the highwalls, the new Brownings are made to smokeless specs. of course, 45-70 cases are too thing to push too hard but one could rebarrel to any modern cartridge and be ok. The Italian jobs are another issue. Pedersoli says 30,000 cup max but privately I've heard from someone who knows that 40-45k is safe for the Sharps. Pedersoli does not make a high or low wall so no comment there. Uberti does though and my understanding is that they are proofed for use at and slightly above 35,000 cup. They are chambered for the 30-40 Krag, 38-55, 30-30 winchester and 45-70-45-90 45-120 so my guess is that 35k may be conservative.

[Dale53]

My favorite duplex powder is RL-7 (it is not terribly fast burning and measures extremely well). 4759 does a good job but does not measure well due to the large grains. 4227 is popular for duplexing, also. Anyone of the three will work well.

Dale53

[C1PNR]

Arent those new browning highwalls made to take the pressures generated by that white powder stuff?

Ought to shoot black anyway.
I sure as heck hope so, since my Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation Rifle of the Year 2000 is an 1885 in 7 Remington Magnum!;)

SWMBO doesn't want me to shoot it, but I'm still thinking of using it for a trophy Elk hunt in Colorado in the next couple of years. It's blued with the action in the white, so I probably need a NEW Leupold scope, right?[smilie=l:

[drinks]

Back to loads.
12gr Herco, 22 gr IMR 4227 or 25 gr IMR 4198 will give good 1200-1300fps performance with no fillers or wads.
These will essentially duplicate original factory BP loads and are all close to the 25,000 -28,000 psi mark for original guns and trapdoors.

[44man]

I am shooting the BFR 45-70 revolver with 4759 and a pinch of dacron. I have made many tests with and without the filler and have found a slight accuracy edge with the dacron.
The funny thing I ran into was with 4198. I use this powder with the Hornady 300 gr bullet with great velocity and accuracy, many times making one ragged hole at 50 yd's. Trying 4198 with my 317 gr cast boolit, I can not reach near the same loads without expanding cases in the chambers. It is a random event where one or two cases expand so they have to be punched out and cases right next to them will fall out of their own weight. This is a scary situation and I quickly stopped using it for cast boolits.
The 4759 loads all fall out when I tip up the gun to dump the emptys. Accuracy runs around 1" at 50 yd's.
I have to pick up some 5744 to try, might just be the ticket.
The barrel length of 10" makes it impossible to shoot anything slower then 4198. 3031 was very accurate but very slow and the gun was full of unburned powder. 4198 is effected by boolit resistance and burns different for each chamber when not restricted evenly. I use very tight boolit pull and a good crimp to no avail.
I am afraid of 4227 in this large a case and due to it being very temperature sensitive, weather conditions and barrel heat will really change the burn rate and pressure. Of all the powders I have used in over 50 years, 4227 has given more problems then any other powder. It has a small group of cases where it works OK.

[Bodine]

Just want to plug my 2 cents in here..

I haven't tried this yet, however IMR has a new powder called Trail Boss that may be something you can use.

Trail Boss is designed specifically for low velocity lead bullet loads suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder, but has some application in rifle. It is based on a whole new technology which allows very high loading density, good flow through powder measures, stability in severe temperature variation and most importantly, additional safety to the handloader.

I have been to the site and they have load data for a 45/70..

I want to try it in my .308 that I use for competitive CB shoots.

[lovedogs]

I haven't tried the new Trail Boss yet, but have had excellent results with 5744. I tried those other powders that didn't fill the case enough... RL7, 4198, etc. and found they all had too much shot to shot velocity variation for long-range shooting unless you tip the muzzle up to position the powder against the primer. The RL7 worked fine with jacketed bullets and will work with a stout loaded cast bullet because it then fills the case better. But with low lead loads it didn't work well. Why didn't your friend like 5744? I had a friend who didn't want to shoot it because it burns dirty. After trying all the others he discovered I was telling him the truth about loading density. He then tried the 5744. When he learned to ignore the dirty burn he found it to be a good powder and now is using it exclusively. Sometimes things don't work the way we want them to and we have to go with what works and let go of our prejudices.

[Dale53]

I would like to add one little comment here about the strength of the Browning BPCR. It is a category three action that will take any load that a #1 or #3 Ruger will with a comparable cartridge. Strength is not an issue here.

Dale53

[fourarmed]

One load I have used in the .40-65 came from Ross Seyfried when he was writing for Rifle/Handloader. It is a general "smokeless for black" formula using 4198 at a level of 40% of the original black powder charge, along with enough dacron to fill the remaining air space. I stopped using it for two reasons: I found that 5744 was a little more accurate, and I got tired of picking up all the dacron from in front of the firing line.

[versifier]

Sorry if I'm straying from the topic, but I have a WD40 comment: The biggest danger with using WD40 is for using it as lube in a carry gun. The penetrating oil component works its way around the primer and renders the priming compound inert, same as any other oil contamination. When it became all the rage for handguns there were a number of cases wherein it was used by LEO's (and I'm sure others, too) where pulling the trigger in a tight situation resulted in "..click.." and no boom. Not an ideal situation. A local police officer I knew found out on the range - I disassembled and thoroughly cleaned his revolver with brake cleaner, then relubed with Shooter's Choice Lube. End of problem. As I hunt with my guns, I never would use anything so smelly, and nothing but more conventional gun oils and weapon lubes were ever to be found in my cleaning kit. I have heard a few people curse about "cement fouling", but still know some who use it for shotguns and match rifles. I think there are better products out there for cleaning, lubing, and protecting, so my WD40 stays in the garage where it belongs.

[carpetman]

versifier---I never had given lube smell any consideration. Maybe you could mix some doe in heat urine in your lube. This would not be too good during antlerless season unless maybe you wanted a lesbian deer. Heck I don't know,do they even have lesbian deer?

[BruceB]

A few years ago,when we were still on Shooters.com, I did a test on primer contamination.

Part of the test involved placing 50 primed .45ACP cases (used cases, at that...not new ones) in a block, and spraying the caseheads with WD40, to the point that puddles of the stuff formed on the caseheads and primers.

I then began a routine of trying to fire five of the primers at one-month intervals in a 1911 pistol. Ten months later, there had been NO misfires or weak-sounding detonations. I ran a similar and parallel test using fifty rounds of loaded .45 ACP rounds, pulled from my on-hand stock of cast-boolit loads. There were no misfires with this ammunition, even after ten months, and chronographing each month with the contaminated rounds beside 'control' rounds from the same run showed no differences at all.

I STILL won't allow the stuff near my ammo!

[lovedogs]

Every so often some controversy pops up about WD40. Many moons ago I contacted them about some of the rumors. After that I did some of my own research like BruceB has done. I still want NO chemicals other than a primer sealant on my primers. But as far as all the WD40 gumming things up... it's not the product. It's the dirt and other things it attracts that does that. Also, if you have guns with tight, shiny finishes, like the fancy finish on a Weatherby wood stock, or a Browning, keep WD40 and all good penetrating chemicals away from them. It can penetrate beneath the finish and then with temperature and atmospheric conditions changing it will try to get out. It will cause finish "crazing", little cracks in the finish. If we use WD for its intended purpose and apply it correctly it, like many other products, will render fine service.

[C1PNR]

Shucks, some of my fishing buddies tell me if you spray WD40 on your fishing lure, you have to beat the fish off with a club!:bigsmyl2:

Then again, you know the veracity level of fishermen (Krag35 not included)!!