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nighthunter
01-08-2006, 05:14 PM
I plan on placeing a large order for surplus powder while it is still available. I know I want WC 820(n) and 4895. What else do you guys feel is useful in a variety of cartridges? I shoot from 22 Hornet to 45/70 in rifle and 9mm to 44 Mag in pistol.
Nighthunter

BCB
01-08-2006, 07:18 PM
Although I have a good variety of surplus, if I had to choose 3 they would be: WC-820, WC-844 and WC-852. Those 3 cover a good range of burning rates...BCB

Ricochet
01-08-2006, 09:20 PM
The very slow Ball powders, WC860 and WC872, fill a couple of niches very well. In many magnum rifle cartridges a full case will give a velocity in the full load range (but usually not quite max) with medium to heavy for caliber jacketed bullets. I use 'em this way in .300 Weatherby and 7mm Remington Magnum. In midsize cartridges like most of the early 20th century military ones, a nearly full case will give relatively high velocities for a heavy cast bullet with good accuracy. May leave some unburned powder in the case and bore. Think of it as a light charge with filler built in. Actually it's different from a small charge of fast burning powder with filler, as the pressure's low and more sustained, so there's less bullet slugging and slumping.

Buckshot
01-09-2006, 06:38 AM
.............BCB, I'd sure like to fine someone with some WC852! I don't think it's out there anymore, is it?

nighthunter, my suggestion would be WC820, WC846 or WC844, 4895, and either WC860 or WC872. I guess I should also suggest some IMR7383. The later I had only a pound of, yet it did well to very well in the 4 cartridges I used it in. It's also pretty cheap.

I keep threatening to buy some but money I saved up went for 24lbs of SR4759 one time and 32 lbs of Nobel Tubal 2000 the next time :bigsmyl2:

The deal for me is this: I don't HAVE to have the very last FPS in speed. I appreciate good accuracy and most all the surplus numbers have delivered it in a few cartridges or in many. Some of the surplus numbers aren't real flexible, or are a bit limited, yet all are useable.

When you compare an average per pound price of $8 to twice that (usually) or more for canister powder, I can put up with some unburned grains here and there. To put a recent purchase into perspective, the 32 pounds of T2K I bought cost $260 shipped & hazmat. I bought it because the description sounded like 4198, and in testing it was almost the same, load for load. That 32 pounds comes to about $7.64/lb.

If I had bought 32 lbs of 4198 locally it would have been $670 !!!!! And that doesn't include tax.

My philosophy is that there are 2 things you cannot do without. One is primers and the other is powder.

.................Buckshot

Lloyd Smale
01-09-2006, 07:04 AM
I use alot of the surplus aa2

BCB
01-10-2006, 06:54 PM
Buckshot,
I don't see WC-852 anymore either!!! It is so darn accurate in a couple of Model 94's in 30-30 cartridge using the 311041 bullet, that I am amazed. One of these 94's is 'scoped and 16 ounce cans are in big trouble at 100-125 yards from the bench. I use it sparingly...BCB

Buckshot
01-11-2006, 03:25 AM
...............BCB, besides 4895 and SR4759, the WC852 slow was one of my most used powders. Very usefull for higher velocity cast loads in any of the standard full power military cases and yes, it was outstanding in the 30-30.

The other nice thing about it was that it was so easy to get along with, and predictable in what it was going to do.

WC846 & 4895 have the same characteristics and are also VERY useable powders. I have about 6 lbs of 4895 left.

....................Buckshot

Ol'Scudder
01-11-2006, 11:09 PM
Wondering if any of you guys have tried this Data 68 yet - - haven't seen it mentioned. Sounds like it would be useful to me - 223, 30/30, 444 Marlin and i sure am tempted. SWMBO has taken note of the several GB 6 bangers i've bought lately - casting dirty looks in my direction when i mention even a moderate
outlay of funds for necessary thngs like powder.

Looks like it would be worth a little flak - - any advice appreciated. TIA

http://www.natchezss.com/category.cfm?contentID=productDetail&brand=AA&category=6&prodID=AAAC6558&CFID=1780489&CFTOKEN=92712240

Beau Cassidy
01-11-2006, 11:23 PM
Powder Valley lists it at $59.75/8 lbs. (a little cheaper than Natchez) with a burning rate between H4831 and 4350. It is extruded. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Might have to try me some. Powder Valley has a little data on it. Haven't looked at the Accurate site yet.

Beau

rocklock
01-12-2006, 09:36 PM
Powder Valley lists it at $59.75/8 lbs. (a little cheaper than Natchez) with a burning rate between H4831 and 4350. It is extruded. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Might have to try me some. Powder Valley has a little data on it. Haven't looked at the Accurate site yet.

Beau

Looks like it has potential...

http://tinyurl.com/cpwxe

felix
01-12-2006, 10:02 PM
http://www.accuratepowder.com/surplus_dp86.htm

this one is more like 4831, a single base 852f? ... felix

Ol'Scudder
01-13-2006, 12:17 AM
Powder Valley lists it at $59.75/8 lbs. (a little cheaper than Natchez) with a burning rate between H4831 and 4350. It is extruded. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Might have to try me some. Powder Valley has a little data on it. Haven't looked at the Accurate site yet.

Beau

Thanks for your reply Beau. Actually I was more interested in dp68, which appears quite a bit faster than dp86, more in line with H335, which I like for the 444 Marlin. The only surplus powder I've used is dp2200 and it's long gone.

Doesn't appear to be a "one size fits all" scenario with this stuff. Before I ran across dp68, I had about decided on some wc844 and wc820 to cover most rifles and revolters I shoot. Confusin ain't it - at least to me. Thanks for the comments.

Ol'Scudder
01-13-2006, 12:23 AM
For anyone interested, here be Accurate's surplus powder list:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/surplus.htm

Buckshot
01-14-2006, 01:56 AM
Looks like it has potential...

http://tinyurl.com/cpwxe

Rocklock, that's for that info. Used from the 17 to the 45-70. Looks like a very good useable powder! Sure wish I could afford to pickup some of it :-(

.................Buckshot

Marlin Junky
04-28-2007, 03:34 PM
I've tried WC-680, W680 and DP-68 in a couple different 30-30's (a M94 carbine and a 336 rifle) with boolits weighing from 150 to 200 grains. If you care about ballistic consistency you'll find another use for this powder. My purchase of DP-68 consisted of 2 jugs from Powder Valley within the last year and I'm going to trade one of the jugs for a jug of DP-74 for use in the 30-30, .35 Rem and the .358. My remaining stock of DP-68 will be used in a .357 rifle... I don't even like it in the .444. I believe DP-68 should be adapted to small cases at near capacity loads; i.e., pistol cartridges in carbines/rifles and stuff like the Hornet. The guy I'm trading it to swears by it in his TC chambered in .221 but he's shooting 40-45 grain copper patched boolitettes (tiny, tiny boolits).

MJ

P.S. WC-820 is one of the most useful surplus powders available today and is way more flexible than the 680 family of powders. For something slower keep on the look-out for 2520 to DP-85. Many swear by the WC-844 family but the price of this stuff is creeping into the canistered range and also becoming scarce... maybe it's all getting burned in Iraq and will flood the market after we pull out in a couple years. I've never tried WC-860 but it seems pretty slow for most cast boolit applications. I think my next powder purchase may be a Ramshot powder from Powder Valley http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

MakeMineA10mm
05-10-2007, 01:19 PM
I've tried WC-680, W680 and DP-68 in a couple different 30-30's (a M94 carbine and a 336 rifle) with boolits weighing from 150 to 200 grains. If you care about ballistic consistency you'll find another use for this powder. My purchase of DP-68 consisted of 2 jugs from Powder Valley within the last year and I'm going to trade one of the jugs for a jug of DP-74 for use in the 30-30, .35 Rem and the .358. My remaining stock of DP-68 will be used in a .357 rifle... I don't even like it in the .444. I believe DP-68 should be adapted to small cases at near capacity loads; i.e., pistol cartridges in carbines/rifles and stuff like the Hornet. The guy I'm trading it to swears by it in his TC chambered in .221 but he's shooting 40-45 grain copper patched boolitettes (tiny, tiny boolits).

MJ

I agree 10000%!!!

Haven't used dp68, but I've used a lot of WC-680, and found the exact same "qualities."

It's important to remember what the original application of surplus powder is for. WC-680 was developed in the 60s for loading american-made 7.62x39mm M-43 Soviet ammunition for the military. Therefore, it is intended to develop pressures that work in short barrels, small cartridge cases, and with heavy recoiling parts. This means 680 generally has sharp-developing, long-duration pressure curve, hence it's great performance in a 221 Contender (14" barrel I'm guessing?), and it's poor performance in the 444 Marlin. (I've never even considered using 680 for my 444 Marlin...)

I bought a few jugs to have a good supply of powder for my 300 Whisper AR-15, and in that application it works GREAT. (Small case, 30-caliber bore, needs to develop a quick, longish-duration pressure curve, so works PERFECT in that round.) I was able to get 680 to work in 223, but only at full-power/marginally over-pressure loads. I didn't like that, so I save it for my Whisper only now... I did score 500 bullets of Barnes new Varmint Extreme 35gr frangible bullets. I will probably try the 680 with those bullets in my 222 Rem. Sako.

As for the original poster's question, I wish you guys would quit talkin' about 820!!!! You're gonna buy it all up!!!!!!!!

targetshootr
05-10-2007, 04:02 PM
Does anyone sell surplus pistol or shotgun power? Something like Clays or Universal would be great. I bought 4 lbs of Clays by mistake and it burns very cleanly in 44s and 45s.

Marlin Junky
05-10-2007, 04:31 PM
I agree 10000%!!!

...and it's poor performance in the 444 Marlin. (I've never even considered using 680 for my 444 Marlin...)


It's usable in the .444 with boolits less than about 300 grains but in my opinion, it's not very flexible.

MJ

trickyasafox
05-10-2007, 06:39 PM
hitech lists 'russian unique' but it's not much cheaper than regular unique, and i'm not sure if they refer to new or old formula (i don't know if there is a difference, but i hear people talk about a distinction between old and new unique?)

MtGun44
06-06-2007, 12:22 AM
The only difference between old and new Unique is that the new
stuff is supposed to burn cleaner. I have both, use which ever can
comes up first and haven't noticed much difference. I've not really
tried to compare, but it isn't dramatic enough to grab my admittedly
uninterested eye.

I like Unique a lot, it has never seemed seriously dirty to me.

The old and new load data is exactly the same.

Bill

JSH
06-06-2007, 08:06 AM
The new Unique does burn cleaner, not much smike and soot left on the revolters I have used it in. I did run across a bargain on some old Unique and could not pass it up, so I will settle to clean as others have before me.
The WC820 is my go to pistol powder. Have a buddy that bought some and compares his lot to 2400, where as mine is close to AA#9. With that finding, when my lot of 820 is gone I will splurge for an 8 pounder of AA#9.

I have some 7383 that I bought because it was so cheap. I have not used much of it at all. I ended up using 4064 data rather than the 4350 data for reference.
Only caliber I have loaded it in was the 25-06, as a lot of fellows said it worked better in the some what over bore calibers. The 25 was shot using J stuff. Accuracy was up to snuff, but not to the speed I was after.

I have an open ear for what to do with this 7383. Some of the reading I have done on it about it getting peaky very fast has almost spooked me away from it's use.
Jeff

mousegun
06-16-2007, 02:10 PM
CMP has a long thread on 7383:

http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=23036&SearchTerms=7383

Ya hafta read the whole thing to get the good stuff.

Synopsis:
Load only up to the bottom of the bullet, no compression.
The more overbore the cartridge, the slower the powder appears.
It acts like 4064 in the .30-06
It acts like 4350 in the .243.
The 7.62 NATO case is too small for efficient loads.
52 grains is a good M1 load with 150 grain bullets.



Anyone here using 7383 with a hard cast 180 grain like the Lee C309-180R in a .30-06?

Maven
06-16-2007, 03:58 PM
Synopsis:
Load only up to the bottom of the bullet, no compression.
The more overbore the cartridge, the slower the powder appears.
It acts like 4064 in the .30-06
It acts like 4350 in the .243.
The 7.62 NATO case is too small for efficient loads.
52 grains is a good M1 load with 150 grain bullets.

Anyone here using 7383 with a hard cast 180 grain like the Lee C309-180R in a .30-06?


Mousegun, Re: synopsis above, I've used IMR 7383 in the .243Win. and .30-06 with jacketed bullets (85gr. & 87gr. and 130gr., respectively) and the 7.5 x 55mm Swiss (K-31) with cast bullets and generally disagree with it:

First, IMR 7383 tolerates moderate compression very well. However, it doesn't tolerate overloads as the threshhold between a maximum load and an overload is small, particularly when the ambient temp. exceeds 80deg. F.

Second, In the .30-06, it acts like IMR 4350, not 4064, but it is bulkier than the same weight of 4350. In the .243Win., I use 4350 data, but it is slower than 4350 in that cartridge. Btw, accuracy in both rifles when using 7383 is <1 m.o.a.

Third, I don't own a Garand so I won't presume to give advice about it.

Fourth, the .308Win./7.62 x 51mm is a bit shorter than the 7.5 x 55mm yet I've used 7383 in it with the Lee CB you mentioned with good effect, but it is more efficient with heavier CB's. It does even better when you approach full case loads, but then accuracy is likely to degrade and recoil and fps are more than I need to punch paper.

Summary: IMR works extremely well with ~full case loads and jacketed bullets in the .243Win. and .30-06 using IMR 4350 starting loads. Whether it will do so in the .308Win. and '06-derived cartridges is beyond my experience, but it should in theory. Search this site's archives for more information. Also, do the same on the AR>Reloading forum (look for posts by [Roger] Bartsche). With less than full case loads, 7383 is erratic (high extreme spreads and standard deviations), which makes it less than ideal for CB loads. WC 820, a much faster-burning milsurp is better for CB applications, though maybe not in the Garand. Better still is AA 5744.

Hope this helps,

Paul

mousegun
06-17-2007, 10:05 PM
Thanks. This is very helpful, and basically augments what Ceresco wrote about using 7383 in .30-06 capacity cases at the CMP forum. As it happens I have both a .243 and an M1 with an adjustable gas lock screw which I want to use it with. The .243 will use jackets only, not relevant to this forum. But the M1 with cast bullets would be ideal for the kind of shooting I'll be doing if it's possible to get a 180 to 200 grain bullet to the 2000+ fps region with 7383. I just haven't seen anyone who's done it yet. Most users find the powder is most efficient with heavy-for-bore bullets but no info on the .30-06 with cast has popped up yet except with jacketed. Years ago there was a lot of experimenting done with slow powders and heavy bullets in the '06 with promising results, but it seems to have died down.

Thanks for the response. I'll check the AR forum.

Buckshot
06-18-2007, 08:14 PM
...........When it became available, there were 3 distinct lots. Some suppliers didn't know which they had :-).

...............Buckshot

mousegun
06-21-2007, 01:01 AM
With the help of Maven I was able to track down some comprehensive information on IMR7383. Roger Bartsche with the help of Maven and others over at the Accuratereloading.com > reloading forum has compiled a huge report on using this powder. I'm still digesting the report, but should have a pretty good synopsis of it soon. If anyone's interested in the report itself, Roger has graciously given me permission to send it to anyone who wants it, and to post it as a sticky where folks think it would be useful. This thing has majorly important information about this quirky powder.

If anyone thinks it's a good idea to use this powder to save a few bucks, four things are mandatory.
A chronograph.
Enough reloading experience to recognize high pressure signs, determine case capacities, and understand the idea of "overbore".
Enough restraint to avoid trying for the hottest "safe" load. Ain't no sech thang with 7383!
Roger's report.
As soon as I get through the report myself, I'll post info on how to get it as a download or an email attachment. It's 24 pages long, so stay tuned...

Maven
06-21-2007, 09:10 AM
Mousegun, Good on ya! I can't wait to read your synopsis.

sundog
06-21-2007, 09:58 AM
Anyone using 4759 clone from Bartlett?

chuebner
06-21-2007, 03:04 PM
Anyone using 4759 clone from Bartlett?

I've been using this powder for several months now for my .30 cal milsurps and am quite pleased with the results. My best load for the Finn M39, Swiss K31 or 03A3 is 16 gr. SR4759 and any of the popular .30cal cast bullets. They especially like the Lyman 311291 or the Lee C309-180.

Charlie

Blammer
06-22-2007, 04:15 PM
I like the IMR4477 which is the IMR3031 equivilent.

jrgift
06-23-2007, 05:42 PM
I have been using H- 116 from Powder Valley.Seems to have a burning rate similar to 4198. Don't know if it is still availble.

felix
06-23-2007, 05:45 PM
Still available, as it is WC680 lot. ... felix