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View Full Version : Anyone ever see copper boolit bands?



mikenbarb
01-14-2009, 10:44 AM
I got a bunch of boolits from a widow of a caster and there are a bunch of odd .30 caliber boolits. Theres a copper band around the boolit body and looks like it was cast in place. Im wondering if anyone has ever seen these things or if their still made because it seems like a great idea. I will post a pic in a bit.

***Please see pics below.***

Willbird
01-14-2009, 12:00 PM
Over the years I have seen more than 1 article where the author cut driving bands from copper pipe, pre heated them on top of the lead pot, dropped them in the mold with tweezers, and cast a bullet around them.

I also remember reading an article about bullets that had a jacket or patch made by winding a cotton covered copper wire tightly around them. The bullet itself was nearly pure lead and very soft

Bill

BABore
01-14-2009, 12:47 PM
Or punch holes in gas checks and set them in place.

redbeard762
01-14-2009, 05:24 PM
Corbin used to make a "driving band" cutter. This would slice off exact lengths of tubing to make cast in driving bands for lead bullets. This was supposed to reduce leading and allow higher velocities with softer alloys.

Russel Nash
01-14-2009, 07:46 PM
No... but I did see Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band one time.

<rimshot>

:-D

Maven
01-14-2009, 08:23 PM
Those may be Wilk gas checks. Check out this thread: castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=26923

bobk
01-14-2009, 08:49 PM
BABore,
Where can I get such a punch?

Bob K

mikenbarb
01-14-2009, 09:12 PM
Thanks and im glad noone thinks im nuts and never heard of them. Im going to research this furthur because it seems like a great idea to have a copper driving band to get higher velocities and may cut down on some lube. Its on the second band and takes up the whole width of it and looks like it will aid with sealing and cleaning the bore when shot. Its definatly wider than a gas check sidewall.
Maven, The link dont work.

mikenbarb
01-14-2009, 09:28 PM
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/002-17.jpg

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/001-18.jpg

JSnover
01-14-2009, 09:59 PM
The article I remember reading was called "The .380 Rook Rifle"....... I think. The author lived in England and came up with the idea back in the 80s.

Slowpoke
01-14-2009, 10:22 PM
Floodgate sent me a magazine article from 1922 and it showed a picture of a boolit with a copper band on the middle drive band, I guess nothing is really new, the designer was Charles Gebhard.

Handloader's bullet making annual Vol.1 1990 has a good article on the Wilk check.

good luck

garandsrus
01-14-2009, 11:21 PM
I have an old Handloader article on the Wilk gas check (which is what they called it). It is a very interesting article and they claim great things. I haven't researched it more than that.

John

tommag
01-15-2009, 12:13 AM
Andrew375 wrote an article about casting for the .375 H&H in the 1997 Handloaders Digetst where he cut 3/8" copper tubing for driving bands and cast them into his boolits.

Bent Ramrod
01-15-2009, 12:16 AM
I have a couple boxes of "Barnes Driving Bands" for the SAECO "Henninger-Barnes" boolit design. According to the instruction sheet, the Bands were made by James Barnes of the Barnes Driving Band Co., PO Box 391, Long Beach California (no zip code). Mr Barnes worked for three years to get these Bands precise enough for accuracy, after discarding machined copper tubing and pierced gas checks as inaccurate. Individuals could order the Bands directly from Barnes, and they were marketed to dealers by Santa Ana Engineering Company. A Mr. Henninger apparently designed the mould, Mr. Modisette of SAECO made it, and they were "extensively tested" by Henninger, Barnes and somebody named E. B. Workman. If you have a three-cavity SAECO No. H-B, that's the mould. I've never come across one myself. SAECO claimed chronographed velocities of 2625 with the 170-gr, 2700 with the 150-gr and 2950 with the 130-gr boolits, all cast of normal lead/tin/antimony suitable for gas-checked designs. No groups, though, or mention of group size. A Patent was allegedly Pending, but I don't know if they ever got one.

I later found a Lyman copy of the 150-gr H-B to try them with, although it turns out that the Bands will also fit the 311291, among other designs. You cast until the regular boolits are perfect, then insert a Band in one or both of the grooves in the mould, close it up and go on casting. Afterwards, fit gas check, size and lube as usual. The boolits do look "different," for sure.

It may be that the SAECO mould is a good deal more precise in dimensions than any Lyman copy or any other design that just happens to fit them, but my experience with these Bands has thus far shown no particular enhancements in accuracy or velocity. The boolit without the Bands is nicely accurate, but no more so than other .30 caliber designs. As the two characters said about the lion trap in the movie The Ghost and the Darkness, "In point of fact, it didn't work; but it was a very good idea nonetheless."

mikenbarb
01-15-2009, 12:43 AM
I would love to find some .30 calibers for my one Lyman mold. They just have the look of having some extra grab with that band for higher velocities.
Thats a .30 caliber flat nose in the pics and weighs 185 grains.

madcaster
01-15-2009, 12:53 AM
I thought it was a .375 caliber,just by the looks of it!
Oh well,I will probably be wrong again about something before I leave this ole world!:coffeecom

jimkim
01-15-2009, 02:55 AM
Here is an article on this. http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_CastingjacketedBullets.htm

mikenbarb
01-15-2009, 11:09 AM
Jim, Very good reading, Thank you. Now my curiosity is up on this and im going to the hobby shop and buying some telescopic brass tubing and running it thru the arrow cutting machine. Im gonna give this band a try and see how they work but im quite sure I will be able to gain some velocity and hopefully better accuracy using them.

garandsrus
01-15-2009, 12:33 PM
Look what I found. (http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl134partial.pdf)...

John

docone31
01-15-2009, 12:43 PM
I like.

mikenbarb
01-16-2009, 07:55 PM
Thanks Garandsrus. Im definatly gonna give them a try as soon as I can find the right material.

garandsrus
01-17-2009, 03:06 AM
Mike,

I am intrigued by the Wilk Gas Check also. The correct material is just a gas check with a hole punched/drilled out of the center :)

John

Lucky Joe
01-17-2009, 02:03 PM
I see I am not the only one interested in the Wilk way. Thanks John, more for the electric library.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-MagCover.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-Page1.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-Page2.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-Page3.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-Page4.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-Page5.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-Page6.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-Page7.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/WilkGasCheck-Page8.jpg

TAWILDCATT
01-17-2009, 08:28 PM
that idea has whiskers on it.after awhile you will get tired of loading the copper bands as it does not do that much good.:coffee:[smilie=1:

docone31
01-17-2009, 09:42 PM
Reading the article, and the posts, I got up from the easy chair picked up a gas check, opened my mold and just placed it in it.
Hoh Boy! I can just see that while the mold is hot!
I would have to have a mold modified and keep it as a designated mold to do that.
It looks like it makes sense.
Meantime, I will stick to paper patching.
So far, waaaay simpler.
It is an alternative for down the road however.
Really looks intersting.

mikenbarb
01-19-2009, 04:56 PM
Im on my way to get a hole punch and start knocking some GC centers out. Will let you know how I make out after I get some down range thru paper and over the chrony.:-D Even if its not a heck of alot better it gave me something to do for a little bit.LOL.
docone, Just use a long pair of hemoststs that clamp shut to hold it good till its in place.

docone31
01-19-2009, 05:47 PM
The GC's do not fit in the lube lands.
No room. I would have to have the mold modified to work.
I tried with it cold, no go no matter what. Even where the GC goes.

shooterg
01-20-2009, 07:32 AM
The 1979 NRA book "CAST BULLETS"says bands can be improvised using a pipe cutter and 5/16" copper tube. Apparently molds sold under the Barnes name used 2 bands. Bands supposedly work with 311334 and 311284 molds and others with broad bands. Supposed to be practical with loads close to jacketed bullets. Looks like a lotta effort but have fun trying !

leadman
01-20-2009, 06:13 PM
I wonder how a thicker piece of copper than the Wilk gas checks would work if there was no lip on the outside like a gas check? Just a flat piece of metal with a specifis outside diameter and a large hole in the center?
Would this go thru a sizing die o.k.?
Being a former heavy equipment mechanic and a Foreman in an auto repair facility I know there is a wide variety of copper gaskets for drain plugs, fuel lines, etc. available. Might have to check this out.

NuJudge
01-20-2009, 09:54 PM
I remember Herters selling the molds and bands to put in them.

mikenbarb
01-21-2009, 03:19 PM
I also saw somewhere that Hensley & Gibbs made a copper wire mold where a piece of copper wife was wound around a rod and then inserted into the mold prior to pouring. Has anyone ever seen this type of boolit? Seems like the same idea but may be a little easier to fit the mold.

docone31
01-21-2009, 04:25 PM
I can see where coiled wire could duplicate a jacket to a large extent.
If we knew the outer limits of sizing, then, knowing the diameter of the wire, we could modify a mold that a coil wrapped around a mandrel could be inserted into the mold.
To my pea-brain, a wire of .025, or 22guage, could be wrapped around a mandrel, cut to length, inserted into the mold. then it could be sized to optimum diameter for the bore.
In other words, a .30cal mold with a nose of .301, could be opened up to accept the coil with the addition of a gas check. The outer limits of the wire could be then sized to say, .309.
The wire would have to be a solid wire as strand wire would be too unstable.
It probably would not recquire lube to fire as the contact would be wire and not lead.
Food for thought.
Perhaps the coil could also replace the gas check. It wouldn't matter the end of the coil as sizing would square it up.
I just might try that one day.
Wire is cheap enough. Just have to get it either unshielded, or remove the insulation prior to wrapping around the mandrel.