Cast Bullet Coating with Epoxy Paint

[michaelfrancis79]

Cast Bullet Coating with Epoxy Paint, has any one tried coating their cast bullets with epoxy paint, are there any pros ang cons regarding the coating?

[No_1]

In my experience, epoxy paint is very ridgid / unflexable when dry. I would believe that when the boolit is deformed in the firing process that the epoxy paint would just crack / flake off but I may be wrong....

Robert

[felix]

Depends on what is embedded with epoxy itself, i.e., colorant. Some work better than others. Need to play with the "lube" like any other. ... felix

[docone31]

I would avoid it.
Have you ever tried to sand epoxy paint?
It drags heavily. You have to change sheets constantly.
The casting goes down the bore, metal to paint contact. Then there is heat and pressure following.
It sounds like a mess about to be made to me.
They used to seal the case to bullet seam with butyrate dope. A very small amount. The dope is nitrocellulose. It burns up with the flame front.
It sealed the case, burned clean.
I might avoid epoxy paint to coat the casting.

[michaelfrancis79]

here in the philippines there are alot of colored bullet heads they call it teflon coated, but I think it is not teflon but only epoxy paint because it is very hard to scratch by the nails, the thing I noticed , becaused I tried shooting one that has been coated versus the none coated one, I noticed when I cleaned my barrel, my barrel shows no lead deposits compared to the none coated bullet head which shows a lot of lead deposits.

Hope any one could give their insights regarding my findings.. thank you!

[montana_charlie]

has any one tried coating their cast bullets with epoxy paint?
What would be the purpose for said coating?
CM

[hiram]

The epoxy used on fishing rods when wrapping guides on with thread is flexible. The rod bends, the epoxy bends.

[45nut]

welcome to the board first,

Now, I would love to see some pictures, do any of the suppliers have web sites?
can you get pictures yourself?
I am open to the idea, theory would be the same as jpw or liquid alox I suppose, not a subscriber to the "not invented here, can't possibly work" here.

[runfiverun]

it seems[to me] it would be pretty hard to control the thickness.
i am thinking he is seeing moly or boron nitride coatings. or even the ny-clad stuff that was banned here.

[michaelfrancis79]

the purpose is that you have a cleaner barrel to improve accuracy, also I noticed that the barrel is more easier to clean, the coatings on the bullet is localy made, one coat only is applied as I inspect the bullet head and so the thickness has a very minimal change. Today I tried it my self with some epoxy paint and got a desame result with the finished coat... I have to range test the material if I can get a similar result. I also think epoxy paint is elastic..

[sniper7369]

I read this thread earlier and it got me thinking about Gunkote or Durakote for cast boolit coatings. It's sprayed on and dries very thin. Might get similar results as the old Nyclad ammo. It'd be interesting anyway.

[Shiloh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelfrancis79 View Post
has any one tried coating their cast bullets with epoxy paint?

What would be the purpose for said coating?
CM

Same question. Why would you want a coating?? Why not just use a jacketed bullet??
What is the purpose?

Shiloh

[michaelfrancis79]

I noticed while shooting with lead cast bullets, the are lead deposites on the grooves on your barrel after shooting a couple of rounds, in my opinion coating it will reduce the lead deposites on the grooves on your barrel... so thats the main purpose... that why I also need insights regarding the issue. and besides jacketed bullets cost more than cast bullets.

[NSP64]

Welcome, if you could post a picture it might help. These boolits that are mode locally, are they loaded or do you load them?

[anachronism]

If you're getting leading, you probably have a bullet size issue. This should be corrected first.

[michaelfrancis79]

I load them

[docone31]

That sounds like either a sizing or alloy.
Instead of lead in the grooves, you might end up with epoxy. Harder to remove.
You need to slug the bore, then add .001, or .002, depending on how it behaves with .001.
I pan lube, run .001 over bore, and get no leading. I push them pretty hot also.
If it don't fit right, you will get skidding. Once a trail is left, more is deposited.
In the beginning, I used to fire a full round of jacketeds when I was wrapping up. Once I found my size, I didn't need to.

[rhead]

It would depend on the texture and strength of the cured epoxy. It might be a good way to get those extra few thousanths that we sometimes need. I am pretty sure that you will not get a clean release on exit so a complete adherence all the way to the target will be needed. Woudl you be able to apply it as a dip to leave the lead tip exposed?
Good luck and have a plan to remove the residue from your failures from the bore and don't get discouraged. New lands are discovered by those who sail out of sight of land.

[Bret4207]

I noticed while shooting with lead cast bullets, the are lead deposites on the grooves on your barrel after shooting a couple of rounds, in my opinion coating it will reduce the lead deposites on the grooves on your barrel... so thats the main purpose... that why I also need insights regarding the issue. and besides jacketed bullets cost more than cast bullets.

You have a size issue and possibly an alloy issue. I would also note that the color (pigment) in paint is often made of really abrasive minerals. Dutch Boy used to make some really fine paints using a mineral near me that was known for it's abrasive quality also.

Sounds to me like the epoxy paint might be solving your boolit fit issue more that acting as a lube or jacket.

[kywoodwrkr]

it seems[to me] it would be pretty hard to control the thickness.
i am thinking he is seeing moly or boron nitride coatings. or even the ny-clad stuff that was banned here.
rfr,
What is in your memory banks about these old Nyclad bullets?
I found a supply(from 80s?) of them the other day I had evidently decided against loading.
Now I'm not sure why I decided that?
CRS is a crippling disease!:roll:
Any information?
Thanks.
PS Still banned? Thought I read something about Federal selling something called nyclad.
??

[anachronism]

What are you hoping to accomplish by painting your bullets? I'd be concerned that the paint could be transferred to the bore, where it would be a real pain to remove, this seems really likely. If you want to paint your bullets, use mold release, or spray graphite to get at least a little lubrication in the process. Paint is not a lubricant.

[smlekid]

do they look anything like these?
http://www.hrbc.com.au/
they sure look painted when you look at them hammertone blue works well dry and seems to lube very well

[Leftoverdj]

There was once a lube called Bullet Master. It was mostly moly-D in a single base epoxy resin carrier, and worked really well for high velocity rifle boolits. It was also a bear to apply and toxic about six different ways. It may well have been banned,

The Nyclad bullets were much different. The plastic exterior was far thicker, much like a plastic jacket. They worked quite well until the plastic age hardened and started flaking off. That took several years, though.

[JIMinPHX]

here in the philippines there are alot of colored bullet heads they call it teflon coated, but I think it is not teflon but only epoxy paint because it is very hard to scratch by the nails, the thing I noticed , becaused I tried shooting one that has been coated versus the none coated one, I noticed when I cleaned my barrel, my barrel shows no lead deposits compared to the none coated bullet head which shows a lot of lead deposits.

Hope any one could give their insights regarding my findings.. thank you!

To the best of my knowledge, the only Teflon coated bullets were steel core. The Teflon was there to protect the barrel from the hard steel core. They were designed for high penetration.

[JIMinPHX]

rfr,
What is in your memory banks about these old Nyclad bullets?
I found a supply(from 80s?) of them the other day I had evidently decided against loading.
Now I'm not sure why I decided that?
CRS is a crippling disease!:roll:
Any information?
Thanks.
PS Still banned? Thought I read something about Federal selling something called nyclad.
??

I used to shoot nyclad .38s in a snubby back when they were regularly available in the Boston area. They were nothing special balistically, as far as i could tell. They were just a real soft lead core HP with a plastic coating. The nice thing about them was that they left the gun real easy to clean. 3 or 4 wet/dry passes with patches & you were done in less than 5 minutes. There was never any fouling. They were a bit expensive though.

[JIMinPHX]

Billy's brand cast bullets use a moly coating that covers the whole boolit & looks a bit like paint.

[sargenv]

Billy's, Bear creek, and Precision are three that are moly coated and all are "Black Bullets". They appear to be painted black, but it's just their moly coating.

[TAWILDCATT]

you have another problem if you are getting leading.I shoot all season and dont clean my 45.or 38.I dont get leading.

[Russel Nash]

sargenv wrote:


Billy's, Bear creek, and Precision are three that are moly coated and all are "Black Bullets". They appear to be painted black, but it's just their moly coating.

A guy up in Wisconsin makes moly coated bullets too, now. His name is Tom Drazy, he owns Drazy Metal Works (he makes steel targets). The name of his bullet company is Black Bullets International.

And then Jerry Miculek's brother, Donnie, owns Bayou Bullets. It is also a black bullet of some sort, but I am not so sure that it is a moly coating.

I will be back in a minute with another post. I have to do another search.

[leftiye]

A plastic that you dipped boolits in and let them dry (cure) shouldn't be a real big problem to come up with. Or epoxy with MDS in it.

[Russel Nash]

Okay, here is the thread I am looking for:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31375

I stumbled across it quite by accident probably when I first joined the forum.

Scroll down some or go to the 2nd page. There is a post by Craig Westerman where he talks about the Sandstrom 27A liquid.

I bought a quart of that, and I experimented a little bit with it coating my cast boolits. I think what I found was that I need to size the boolits down even smaller, AND I needed to figure out a way to dry them without the liquid leaving big clumps on the boolits.

Do you guys have any recommendations?

The goal at the time was to make a less smokey cast boolit, because everyone believes that the smoke from a cast boolit is due to the lube on/in the grooves.

I have since experimented with UNlubed boolits and I think that is simply not true.

Back then when I was tinkering with the Sandstrom 27A liquid, I kinda had dollar signs in my eyes. I pictured being able to go to matches and sell a few thousand of my "moly coated" boolits. This USPSA and Steel Challenge habit/hobby gets expensive, so having a way for it to pay for itself would be ideal.

The demand for boolits from the USPSA'ers and the IDPA'ers went ballistic (no pun intended) about a year ago and some of those moly coated bullet manufacturers were back logged for 6 weeks or more.

Another thing of interest to me is/was.... How does or did this Craig Westerman guy know about the Sandstrom 27A liquid? And does he know anything about the application process?

I don't suppose any of you guys know him.???? I tried sending him a PM here, and got nothing back. And then I tried to track him down via the Brian Enos forums. No luck there either.

[leadeye]

When I was in the industrial coatings business we made several epoxy finishes that had high loads of 10 micron Teflon powder in them. They were primarily for machinery that would cut and move paper/cardboard which is abrasive over time. Worked very well as the initial wear only exposed more teflon, the epoxy was used for its strength and wetting ability.

[jbunny]

leadeye; are u familiar with TFE. i get it in spray cans and it's very slipery. i'm gona try
this as lube instead of alox as soon as the weather breaks. just haveing second thoughts, while i'm waiting for the wheather, i'll spray a few bullets and put the torch
to them like the lee catalog melting bullets coated with alox. we'll see if it takes the
high temps.
regards
jb

[Uncle R.]

leadeye; are u familiar with TFE. i get it in spray cans and it's very slipery. i'm gona try
this as lube instead of alox as soon as the weather breaks. just haveing second thoughts, while i'm waiting for the wheather, i'll spray a few bullets and put the torch
to them like the lee catalog melting bullets coated with alox. we'll see if it takes the
high temps.
regards
jb
Torching TFE is NOT a good idea - it gives off deadly gases when overheated.

[Trifocals]

Quite a number of years ago I had a Ruger SS BH .357. On it I had mounted a small sight sold By Thompson Center. The sight worked with ambient light and had tapered green crosshairs. I was sighting this combo in at 100yds using sandbag rest. The ammo was S&W Nyclad. Once sighted in, I shot (3) consecutive groups at 100 yds that were all one ragged hole. Great revolver, great ammo. As I was prone to do in those days, I stupidly sold the Ruger. More to the point of this thread: The problem I foresee with any type of type of paint coating is an even application. Perhaps powder coating could work. I know there are paint applications wherein an electrical charge is applied to the object to be painted and the paint is attracted to the object. Someone with knowledge of this process may be able to shed more light on it. Most anything is possible with enough research, trial and error. LOL :?:

[Russel Nash]

There was one guy I was corresponding back and forth with via YouTube. He sent me this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOR-SX8A0Oc

At about the 35 second mark, you get to see how they tumble candy.

He is thinking that is how the big 3 (Precision, Bear Creek, & Black Bullets Int'l) coat their bullets with the moly.

Maybe that is how they get an even coating of moly.

And somehow they are drying the boolits, so that if there is any excess left on them, it doesn't dry that way as one big clump.

Maybe there are using vibrating screens???

[stiles]

I bought a quart of that, and I experimented a little bit with it coating my cast boolits. I think what I found was that I need to size the boolits down even smaller, AND I needed to figure out a way to dry them without the liquid leaving big clumps on the boolits.

Do you guys have any recommendations?


I'd tumble em to apply, kinda like a candy maker but with a cheapish cement mixer with some type of heater to start to cure the coating (maybe a propane infrared heater).


Another thing of interest to me is/was....
How does or did this Craig Westerman guy know about the Sandstrom 27A liquid? And does he know anything about the application process?



Sandstorm 27a in gun circles is mostly known for refinishing GI M-16 mags, that's my guess how he came up with that.

Patent #4,196,670 mentions Sandstorm 47-A. It's discontinued but it's a solvent thinned epoxy phenolic resin solid film lube. The patent also mentions a "lacquer like" resin carrier which 27a and the successor 28a use lacquer. LC-300 is Sandstorms lowest temperature curing epoxy solid film lube

[Russel Nash]

Okay, thanks!

Just 10 posts, eh?

Where were you 2 years ago when I tripped across that Sandstrom thread?

:kidding:

Just kidding....

Yeah, I had heard from a higher ranked shooter that one of the manufacturers uses a heated vibratory tumbler to coat his boolits with. I guess it is or was one of those things that was meant originally for industrial use only.

You are right about the lacquer part. I used to spray lacquer on cabinets and furniture for a living (if you could call it that). So the instant I started tinkering with that 27A, I was like , "Hmmn...okay... where is my respirator?"

IIRC, from the Material Data Safety Sheet, it says it contains MEK.

[runfiverun]

i do know that the coated boolits are also being used in australia.
they have iirc black blue and green coatings maybe one of the guy's from down there might have some insight.

as far as the nylon coated stuff goes i can't really add any more than was already said about them.
i've been shooting plain cast in revolvers so long i just never paid a whole lot of attention to what anybody was selling.

[HI-TEK]

The coated projectiles in the Phillipines originated from Australia, and manufacturer Top Score. They used the HI-TEK-LUBe coating made by J&M Specialized Products in Australia.
The coatings have been around since 1992 in Australia and has replaced all other lubes.
Joe

[mehavey]

The word "epoxy" covers a multitude of both sins & chemistry -- and all are highly tailored to specific usage/wear/load patterns.

Take care you do not add to your problem instead of alleviating it.

[HangFireW8]

The Nyclad bullets were much different. The plastic exterior was far thicker, much like a plastic jacket. They worked quite well until the plastic age hardened and started flaking off. That took several years, though.

My NyClad's are over a decade old and show no sign of flaking. I wouldn't expect them to do so any faster than any other nylon based product stored indoors. I posted a pic of them here in another thread recently.

HF

[HI-TEK]

My NyClad's are over a decade old and show no sign of flaking. I wouldn't expect them to do so any faster than any other nylon based product stored indoors. I posted a pic of them here in another thread recently.

HF

You all may want to have a look at U-Tube videos 1 and 2 below.
HI-TEK
YouTube videos:
Part1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VevKJgHseWc
Part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU7PbbtbAtE