45-70 loads for the 1895 Marlin

[Timberghozt]

Hello Gents.I am brand new here and I don`t know a damned thing about casting.I know a little about handloading and wildcatting but this casting is new to me.I got an 1895 Marlin with a microgroove barrel recently for Christmas and I want to learn how.I know waksupi and drinks from other forums and I figured I should venture here to learn how rather than pestering them with my questions elsewhere.
I don`t know where to really start asking questions.But if you were me without equipment and molds for my rifle to cast..Where should I start and what should I do as far as buying a pot to melt lead,the appropriate bullet for my rifle and the things I should know before loading a cast bullet as opposed to using the jacketed bullets that I am used too?
I wanna use a 300 grain bullet or maybe a 405 and I`m shooting meat,particularly boar hogs with my gun and some deer later on next season.I guess that doesn`t matter but I need some accuracy too out to about 200 yards with it.
Sorry for all the questions and hope you fellas will bear with me until I learn to do this proficiently. :-?

[NVcurmudgeon]

Welcome, Timberghozt. In my early 1895 .45/70, 32.0 gr. IMR 4198 (1390 fps) and 38.5 gr. IMR 3031 (1165 fps) grouped 2.5" at 100 yd. with aperture rear and big gold blade front sights. Boolit was the RCBS 405 GC FP, which actually cast 424 gr. in WW alloy. Having tried a few Elmer Keith jacketed loads, I tended to make my cast loads the kind you can shot all day, painlessly.

[waksupi]

Timberghozt, I'm glad to see you over here,. There is a hell of a lot I don't know about particular fierarms, but you will certainly get help here. For some reason, I thought you were shooting a .44 mag rifle!

[Buckshot]

.............Timberghozt, a very hearty welcome to the board. First of all I suppose in all reality if you don't like to just shoot, that getting all involved in casting would be a bit more expensive then a rational person could justify.

It hurts to even THINK I would be steering someone away from what I consider a truly fantastic hobby and pastime. But you can accomplish it fairly inexpensively also. Casting should be done outside or in your garage or other outbuilding. The lead fumes aren't at issue here, but the fluxing and stuff can cause some oders.

All you really need is a pot to melt your lead in and a suitable heat source to do the melting. Beyond that you need a dipper to get the lead alloy to the mould, and then the mould. Finally some lube, and that's about the basics for a plain based slug. Getting the lube on the slug can be done cookie cutter fashion.

Melt your lube in a double boiler and have the slugs sitting in a pan of some sort. Ideally the slugs should be warmed by maybe having the pan containing them over a VERY low heat for a bit. You sure dont' want to melt them again, just warm them. I find pouring the lube amongst a bunch of cool boolits causes the lube to set up too fast around them so it really doesn't fill the grooves as well as you'd like.

Take a fired unsized old 45-70 case and cut the base off. You might need to cut off about 1/3 of the case down from the rim to get past the inward taper. Solder on a couple pieces of brass or heavy copper wire for handles and then merely push it down over each slug in turn. They will push the previous up out of the cutter to be set aside. It's not perfect and can leave the boolit a bit more 'loobie' then you'd like.

You can drive WW typical alloy boolits without a gascheck from your 45-70 levergun to recoil levels that will get your attention. A cardwad under a plainbased boolit can help as loads get 'peppy'.

Your question, "What's a good mould or boolit for my rifle" will get a different answer from most folks who reply. Lyman makes a couple really good moulds for suitable hunting boolits that don't require a GC and would work well in your lever gun. One is a 330gr and the other is a 405. Lee also has a couple good designs of similar weight (.340 and 405) but I hesitate to suggest them as so many people have reported they drop too small, at say .457 to .458". Mine did too :-)

Now what I consider the best all round boolit in the 45-70 is the RCBS 45-405 but it does take a GC. You can drive it with IMR3031 in the 45-70 to some truly dazzeling speeds. If you get a Lee push through size die ($15) you can seat the GC no problem.

Regardless the MV you might reach, the 45-70 still has a arcing trajectory. Range estimation is VERY important and unless you're very good at it, I would not (this is me personally) consider shooting at a game animal over 150 yards away. If you know your ranges and have practiced shooting to your accepted max range (you mention 200 yds) and can keep 3 shots inside 4 inches then maybe you're good to go. The issue isn't about the cartridge having sufficient whumpus at 200 yards.

Costwise, assuming you get WW alloy free, a 53.0gr charge of 3031 will run about $0.15/rnd and maybe what, 2 cents for the primer? A box of 20 will run you about $3.50. If you choose a GC design then add another 60 cents. For plinking ammo at about 1250 fps you'd use about 28.0grs of like H4198 and your cost/20 rnds is a tad over a buck and a half.

I have 3 rifles in 45-70. Two are Trapdoors (carbine and infantry rifle) and the 3rd is a MAS36 converted to 45-70. I took a nice boar at the Hunter-Liggett military reservation here in California about 9 years ago with it. I was using the Lee 405gr slug cast of pure lead and paper patched. MV of the load was right at 1600 fps. The slug took the pig almost broadside at 60 yards, and it still may be going for all I know. Mr boar hog cashed it in with a grunt and a shudder on the spot.

..................Buckshot

[Timberghozt]

Thanks for the info and glad to meet ya NV.I bought apound of 4198 to use with it and some 300 grain Hornady JHP`s.I should be good to go on powder for a little bit.I have the original factory sights on mine with see through mouts and a fixed 4x Redfield Frontier.My eyes aren`t what they use to be and I tend to use optics more than iron sights.I have only shot the rifle using factory Remington 300 grain HP`s and it shoots about a 3 inch group at 100 yards with them.That is accepatable but I would like to see it do a little better than that.I want to use it on feral hogs mostly but I might use it on whitetail in the upcoming season,at least once.That would be super cool to use a bullet I cast and my handload to take a nice Texas whitetail buck. ;-)
I will be asking lots more questions,hope you`ll not get aggravated answering em. [smilie=l:
Hey Waksupi.Glad to be over here.This is an incredible forum with so much info I don`t know where to begin reading.I wish I would have registerd and come over here long ago.There is a lot of handloading knowledge along with the casting.
Sorry about that chambering.I should have told you it was in 45-70.For some reason I was thinking you had one of the Ballard rifled versions of the 1895.
Where should I look to find me a decent priced pot you fellas use to melt lead?
I am gonna push a cast boolit Don sent me down the bore and see if I can get a mic measurement so I can get a mold a few thousandths bigger as you suggested.
With it a few thousandths larger I shouldn`t have the leading problems I have heard of with the microgrooves ,right?I am gonna push gas checks on em too I guess?
Hey Buckshot.Glad to meet you.It appears we were posting at the same time ,I didn`t see your post until I had made this one.I appreciate your information.Thats exactly what I was needing,.Thanks a bunch.I do shoot, a lot. ;-) I load for everything from 223 Rem to 300 Win mag.About 11 different rifle chamberings I think.My bill for bullets alone from Midway would be quite a shock to the Mrs, if she seen em all. [smilie=l: I really love to handload mostly.I figure casting would allow me to shoot this big thumper cheaper and more and maybe start casting for a few other rifles after I gain some confidence at it.Again,I appreciate you taking the time to share that knowledge with me ...
Thanks for the info fellas.I will be around often.
Gene Monk

[Singletree]

Timberghozt, a big hello to you, sir. I shoot my later Micro groove 1895 with a bit heavier loads and found that a new Limb Saver recoil pad screwed on the butt in place of the factory one was essential equipment for me. Next, I slugged the barrel and found it measured .4585. I needed a bullet that cast at least a .459 - .460 diameter bullet to be a thousandth or so over bore diameter. The existing Lyman mold I had cast a 385 gr. bullet that was too small. Bought a RCBS 300 gr. mold that cast .456, way too small. Finally bought a Saeco 300 gr. mold and found success. 40 gr. of 4064 behind the Saeco bullet produces one big ol' hole at 50 yards and enough recoil to satisfy me. 4064 is known to be clean burning and in the 45-70 it leaves a brownish gold colored wash in the barrel. Nothing more.

[Timberghozt]

Hey Singletree,glad to meet ya and appreciate the info amigo.I will let you fellas know as soon as I get a measurement and then Ill go from there.I know what you mean about therecoil with these rifles.I was a bit surprised that mine kicked the way it does with a 300 grain bullet.It is not terrible but it will kick.I am used to recoil but a nice pad is in order... :-)
Gene

[JDL]

Welcome to the loonie bin Timberghozt! The .45-70 is a perfect candidate for casting to avoid the cost of the jacketed variety. :-) I won't say you'll save money, but you will have the pleasure of being self-sufficient with boolits that you make yourself. -JDL

[Timberghozt]

Thanks for the welcome JDL. [smilie=l: Yeah I see where this casting stuff could become quickly addictive.. :smile:

I got a mic measurement of .453 in the grooves.That as close as I could get with my flat base Hornady mic.What diameter bullet mold do you fellas suggest I get allowing a few thousandths bigger because of the micro groove?
Its saying .4587 on the lands as close as I can get.
I think .460 is where I should look at for the mold?.Right?

[The Nyack Kid]

from all that i have heard about micro-grove marlin 45-70s 460 is the norm .459 might work but you wont know till you try . there in is the biggest problem that most people have with cast and marlins most molds dont drop a boolit that big . my latest lyman 457643 drops at .4585 . IMo the your best bet is to have dan at Mountain Molds make you a mold to your specs and advoid the hassal of finding a mold that is big enough . as far as brand name mold go there are some great designs out there . lymans 457122 a 330 grain hollow point . 457643 a 400 gr flat point 457193 a 405 gr flatpoint rcbs 405 grn flatpoint gas check and NEI has a "few" molds that work good in leverguns # 335 and 338 are 330 gr and 355 gr gas check design but can be ordered with out gaschecks . saeco has em and lee has em . lots of choises

[Timberghozt]

Thanks Nyack.I will see if I can do with the diameter first.I have a bag of cast bullets in different diameters and weights that Drinks cast for me to try out..Appreciate your info on this.I will do a Google search and see if I can find a link to Mountain Molds also.

[carpetman]

Timberghozt---Welcome from San Angelo Texas. We wont hold it against you that you know Wakosupi--you do know drinks which cancells it out some. You ask what equipment to get and you'll get as many opinions on that as you get responses. I would start out getting a Lyman Manual---it has both information about casting as well as cast data which will be useful. They include cast data as they make casting equipment and most of the other manuals are for jacketed only. If you are like many of us,your primary source for alloy will be wheelweights. Smelting them down into usable ingots should be a separate operation from the actual casting. For this I use a coleman stove and a cast iron pot and a Lyman ingot mold. I use the Coleman so I can do it outdoors as it does produce a lot of smoke. By now there will be atleast 2 dozen folks telling you,you can use all sorts of stuff for an ingot mold---and how they spend all there waking hours going to garage sales getting muffin pans. It's true you can do that--ingot mold is less than $15 so why bother? Now that you have ingots,you are ready to cast. All types of options. I started using a ladle and the cast iron pot and Coleman stove. Bought a cheap Lee electric bottom pour furnace and like it a lot better. That furnace is about the only Lee product I have used that I would recommend. For almost all other needs,I like RCBS. Molds,lubersizer etc. Many will tell you about Lee push through sizer---yes cheaper but they dont lube. They will tell you use the Lee liquid lube--I wouldn't know--never used it. Other lubers while more costly are faster. I like my RCBS.

[C1PNR]

Thanks Nyack.I will see if I can do with the diameter first.I have a bag of cast bullets in different diameters and weights that Drinks cast for me to try out..Appreciate your info on this.I will do a Google search and see if I can find a link to Mountain Molds also.
Try this one:
http://www.mountainmolds.com/
Should work:)

[Timberghozt]

Hey Carpetman..Glad to meet you and thank you for the information.I looked at the Lyman cast kit in Midway,had the pot,ladle,ingot mold and comes with their casting book.Its affordable and I can sneak it by the Mrs. fairly easy.Glad to meet another Texan always. :)
C1PNR,thank you for the link sir.I will definately be going to that site.This casting stuff has me intrigued to say the least. ;-)
Gene

[wills]

Lyman has instructions on line for most everything they sell. Examples:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/images/Bullet%20Guide.pdf

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/Instruction%20Guide%2012.pdf

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/Instruction%20Guide%2014.pdf

here is something else
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm

Also when you decide to give up on that white powder stuff, you are right near the Heart of Texas Silhouette Association range where a lot of good BPCRS shooters shoot twice a month.

[Timberghozt]

Hey Wills,I appreciate them links bud.You guys are spoiling me making it to easy for me to find stuff. [smilie=l: I will definately check out that longrangebpcr link too.
I can`t give up on all that smokelss yet amigo.223 Ackleys 25-06`s and such don`t do too well with that black stuff. :razz: .
Do you fellas let modern lever guns in that shoot? ;-)
I wanted one of them Shiloh Sharps but its a little too much for me in the cash department. :-?

[wills]

They are sanctioned BPCRS matches I dont think HOTSA has a website. Ours is http://www.yauponcreek.org/

Don’t have to have a Shiloh. I shoot a rolling block with a Badger Barrel, less than a thousand.

[Timberghozt]

Ah very cool Wills,I checked out your site too.Very nice.Hey you have any info on affordable rolling blocks?I looked at one of those Pedersoli(sp) rifles a while back in 45-70,It looked real nice and was fairly reasonable. :-?

[wills]

I went to a couple of matches, let it be known I needed a rifle and one turned up. Might want to visit

Alterfurtz BPCR group
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR

Shiloh Sharps forum
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

and ask around.

I was a little leery of spaghetti rifles, but a lot of people are happy with them.

There is Lone Star, but those prices are not much cheaper than Shiloh. Sure are nice rifles, both of them.

Might also want to consider a Browning

[versifier]

No need to insult the pasta, the rifles make us look bad enough until we mention Baretta, a contraversial enough topic to divert the argument in a safer direction.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :rolleyes: [smilie=1:

[rvpilot76]

Hey Singletree,glad to meet ya and appreciate the info amigo.I will let you fellas know as soon as I get a measurement and then Ill go from there.I know what you mean about therecoil with these rifles.I was a bit surprised that mine kicked the way it does with a 300 grain bullet.It is not terrible but it will kick.I am used to recoil but a nice pad is in order... :-)
Gene
If you are planning on putting a tang sight on that 45/70, DO NOT cut the stock back when putting on that pad. I made this mistake on my 1895 Cowboy, and now the tang sight whacks me in the eyebrow upon firing. The Limbsaver is a definite MUST HAVE with this monster, when loaded up, and really makes the rifle pleasant to shoot. By the way, I bought the Marble's tang sight. It has the windage adjustment, which the Lyman lacks, and you can find them on sale from time to time on midwayusa.com for $99. Well worth the money in my opinion. If you want to shoot that Marlin at longer ranges, for practice, and want a really good front sight, get the Lyman #17 globe front sight. It makes all the difference.

Regards,

Kevin

[9.3X62AL]

T-Ghozt.....

A belated welcome to the asylum. Lots of good info above, and I won't repeat much of it--except to emphasize that most mainstream molds cast too small for most 45-70's. Mine is a Ruger #1 with 8 grooves, sort of an ambivalent Microgroove, I guess--.449" x .459", so the lands are .005". .459" sizing does OK in my rifle, when I can prompt castings to get that large. Mountain Molds will get a couple designs sent their way later this month.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Don't do what I did with my 1895 first up, loaded up, crimpped into the cannelure (foolishly) filled the mag and then found they were a bit long to feed. Big job to get it stripped and sorted.

I saw a mould which is a copy of the Gould 330Gn HP on the Cast Bullet Engineering site. No! not another mould!!!!

You will have a good time on this board.
Mick.

[Timberghozt]

Thank you gents for the info and pardon the slow reply.Been busy for a few days but I do appreciate the info and am back to continue reading and learning as I prepare to step off into this...

[fourarmed]

Timberghozt, just saw this thread. I think you ought to slug that bore again. If your slug wasn't at least .460 to begin with, you could easily get a misleading measurement. If you don't have anything but a .458 bullet for your slug, then squeeze it in a vise a little bit before you drive it through. You could also push it in a ways, then tap it between two rods to bump it up. Mine slugs .4595, and I opened up my sizer die so it lubes only. Both my Lyman moulds drop WW bullets at about .460, which works very well. Smaller bullets will work up to about 1000 fps, but for hunting loads you need bigger.

[Daveb]

Hey all!
Just registered after reading about this site in "Guns". Just read the post asking about the Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70. I bought one almost 2 years ago and put a set of Baldwin sights on it. I'm not what I would call a good rifleman but have been shooting in BPCR competition here in OZ land. I am now shooting with the "big boys" in AAA and hope to hold my own this year. The Pedersoli "spaghetti gun" shoots a lot better than I can hold and even though its not an American manufactered firearm, I am really pleased with it. I shoot a 520 gr Lyman 457125 bullet in front of 64.5 grains of 3f Swiss, a .060 vegetable wad and a Federal magnum primer out of Remington brass. Just wanted to say hello.

Since this is a lever action thread- I have a question-or 2. I bought a Winchester 94 Legacy in .357 last year. It almost immediately started pushing 2 (or more) rounds out of the magazine when I jacked the slide. I am used to using lever action rifles-got the same rifle in 44 mag. No problems with the 44 though. I sent it back to Winchester only after trying to (per a gunsmith friend's advice) shorten the magazine spring-which didn't solve the problem. Don't know what Winchester will say yet since they can't get the rifle back to me until 6 weeks after sending it. They will probable tell me to stop trying to "fix" it. Just wondered if anyone else out there has had similar problems and what I need to do-or not do to prevent it. I currently use it in the Cowboy lever action silhouette shoots. I tried a Lyman 150 gr SWC plain base bullet and the 200 yard rams just laughed at me-so I bought a used 175 gr roundnose RCBS mould (#82035) with a GC design. Am a little nervous about using a roundnose in a tubular magazine but have not had a problem-yet. Anybody have a suggested load? Have tried Unique, Blue Dot and Trail Boss with only marginal results. Am anxious to get some revenge on those rams.

Guess I have ramble on long enough here. Looking forward to chatting with you all. Been shooting, casting and reloading for about 35 years and still having fun. Be careful out there.
Daveb

[Buckshot]

...............DaveB welcome to the board. Have a couple other ner'do wells from Oz aboard and a Kiwi too! The Pedersoli's are fine rifles and don't have any reason to take a backseat to the rifles out of Big Timber, MT.

I don't have an answer to your question about the lever action problems. I don't have one myself. Sounds like a lifter issue if that's how Winchester handles feeding from the tube.

"Am a little nervous about using a roundnose in a tubular magazine but have not had a problem-yet?"

Use a flat nosed punch when you Lube-size'm. At the bottom of the stroke bear down with a bit of mild pressure. This will form a flat on the round nose.

Going to 180 grains might do the trick. But it also could be too much. It's been 9 years since I was able to shoot short range silhuette but I recall guys doing so with Marlin M94's and Rossi M92 clones in 357. Don't know what they were using for slugs or loads.

I know that a 150gr slug from 6.5 Swede at 1550 fps will knock a ram over at 200 meters. But it has a bit better BC then a 35 cal of similar weight!

..................Buckshot

[Cayoot]

Hey all!
Since this is a lever action thread- I have a question-or 2. I bought a Winchester 94 Legacy in .357 last year. It almost immediately started pushing 2 (or more) rounds out of the magazine when I jacked the slide. Daveb

I also own a Winchester .357 that developed the same problem during the first season of cowboy shooting. I took it to a gunsmith (Cabella's shop) and was told that this is a problem that is not uncommon with new Winchester lever actions. The root of the problem is in the material that is used to manufacture the small part that limits the number of rounds that are extracted from the tube magazine each time the lever is cycled. The part is too soft and quickly wears down.

My carbine was so bad that each time the lever was cycled, all rounds in the tube mag tried to jump into my receiver...the only thing that limited the number of rounds that came out to the tube was the amount of space in my receiver.

Jammed up my gun really bad every time I used it.

This was my first AND LAST Winchester I'll ever own.

It just goes to show why you don't buy a rifle from a shirt manufacturer!!!! [smilie=l:

I'll stick to Marlins from now on...they've never given me a lick of trouble.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Hey all!
Just registered after reading about this site in "Guns". Just read the post asking about the Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70. I bought one almost 2 years ago and put a set of Baldwin sights on it. I'm not what I would call a good rifleman but have been shooting in BPCR competition here in OZ land. I am now shooting with the "big boys" in AAA and hope to hold my own this year. The Pedersoli "spaghetti gun" shoots a lot better than I can hold and even though its not an American manufactered firearm, I am really pleased with it. I shoot a 520 gr Lyman 457125 bullet in front of 64.5 grains of 3f Swiss, a .060 vegetable wad and a Federal magnum primer out of Remington brass. Just wanted to say hello.

Since this is a lever action thread- I have a question-or 2. I bought a Winchester 94 Legacy in .357 last year. It almost immediately started pushing 2 (or more) rounds out of the magazine when I jacked the slide. I am used to using lever action rifles-got the same rifle in 44 mag. No problems with the 44 though. I sent it back to Winchester only after trying to (per a gunsmith friend's advice) shorten the magazine spring-which didn't solve the problem. Don't know what Winchester will say yet since they can't get the rifle back to me until 6 weeks after sending it. They will probable tell me to stop trying to "fix" it. Just wondered if anyone else out there has had similar problems and what I need to do-or not do to prevent it. I currently use it in the Cowboy lever action silhouette shoots. I tried a Lyman 150 gr SWC plain base bullet and the 200 yard rams just laughed at me-so I bought a used 175 gr roundnose RCBS mould (#82035) with a GC design. Am a little nervous about using a roundnose in a tubular magazine but have not had a problem-yet. Anybody have a suggested load? Have tried Unique, Blue Dot and Trail Boss with only marginal results. Am anxious to get some revenge on those rams.

Guess I have ramble on long enough here. Looking forward to chatting with you all. Been shooting, casting and reloading for about 35 years and still having fun. Be careful out there.
Daveb

Where in OZ are you from and where do you shoot BPCR? I have a Browning BPCR and am keen to get it precolating. I'm in the Hunter Valley in NSW.

Strange, but I have owned lots and lots of Winchesters, both old and new and apart from feeding problems with 92s I've never had a bit of trouble. I suppose if you got a rough one, it might turn you off them.

The only trouble I have ever had with lever guns is with my 1895 Marlin, the metal forend cap fell off in the bush and I found when I tried to fit another one that the holes on the 'hanger' I suppose you'd call wasnot lined up properly and it is a bear to fit and when fitted, the screws are under considerable pressure. I carry a screwdriver with me when I use it and give them a tweak every now and then.

[Dale53]

The 45/70 is one of my favorite cartridges. I have a Marlin 1895 with conventional rifling. My Lee 340 RF mould casts at .460" and works just fine. I get 1.5" groups at 100 yards with a book load of 4198.

I recently bought a nice used Ruger #3 in 45/70 that ought to make a dandy hunting rifle. I immediately had a "limb sav'r" recoil pad fitted and swapped out the forend for a #1 Ruger forend. It sure looks cool (as the kids say). I also bought a new Lyman 330 gr H.P. (Gould) bullet mould. It casts .459"-.460" in 25/1 and should work fine over a 10% duplex load (RL-7+ case full of Swiss 1 1/2. I have also borrowed a Lyman two cavity Collar Button mould and will be casting some bullets this week. Looking for a low recoil practice load.

Just LOVE the 45/70.
Dale53

[lovedogs]

Howdy from Montana! I'm new here, too. From what I have gathered lots of you have had problems with H&R Handi-Rifles. Some of our members here at the Medicine Rocks Black Powder Association shoot Handi's and Buffalo Classics in .45-70. We all like them. They've given good service, are reasonably priced, and I'll put my Classic up against any .45-70 you can name for accuracy. It's fun to hunt with, also. Shoots everything real well. Right now they're hard to find as they've gained in popularity, but if you are tight in the pockets they're a good way to go. I shoot matches with Saeco 1881's (500 gr. lead) and, so far, have used cheap Remington 300 gr. HP's from Midway for deer and antelope. For lead I use Accurate 5744 and for jacketed it's Reloder 7. I love this rifle!

[txpete]

Timberghozt I am just outside of killeen pretty close.we need to shoot one of these days.
great bunch of guys here and they have helped me out alot.
pete

[stardate2010]

Hi,
New here, but been reading and watching. Reloaded for my Parker Hale 1200S 7mm Rem Mag years ago, gave the rifle to my son out in Dallas area while working overseas. I am considering getting one of the new Marlin XLR 45/70's in SS with the 24" barrel.
Couple of questions:
1. Has anyone ever developed a mold for a 750gr cast bullet in the .458 caliber?
2. Think I read somewhere??? that the Marlin can be reamed to the 45/90 spec and still use 45/70 brass? Anyone ever done it? Results?
Thanks
Alan @ Iraq

[The Nyack Kid]

.
Couple of questions:
1. Has anyone ever developed a mold for a 750gr cast bullet in the .458 caliber?
2. Think I read somewhere??? that the Marlin can be reamed to the 45/90 spec and still use 45/70 brass? Anyone ever done it? Results?


1. NEI has a 645 grain mold for .458 . the dang thing is 1.5 inches long with 2/3 of that in the case which does't leave much room for powder in anything shy of the 460 wetherby.
2. yes it can be done BUT the marlin action is too short to cycle a properly loaded 45-90 @ 2.88 inches . the oldtimers used to shoot 45-70 in 45-90 chabered rifles but they had trouble with fouling build up in front of the 45-70 case that gave them problems chambering 45-90s .

[floodgate]

Nyack:

" the oldtimers used to shoot 45-70 in 45-90 chabered rifles but they had trouble with fouling build up in front of the 45-70 case that gave them problems chambering 45-90s "

I've done that too, in an older '86, with no problems, at least for a few shots. But remember that the .45-90 was originally an "express" cartridge, using a short, lightweight (300 gr.) bullet, and had a relatively slow twist of 1:32" for the Winchester barrels, compared with 1:22" for the .45-70 with its 400 - 500 gr. bullets. These may not be adequately stabilized in such .45-90 barrels. I believe the "modern" .45-90's (.45 - 2.4" cases) used by the BPCR crowd in their single-shots have much quicker twists (up to 1:18" or faster), especially with the really heavy 600-gr. and up long range projectiles.

floodgate

[Bullshop]

I once had an 86 Win 45/90 and it was maxed out for boolit weight at about 350gn. Longer boolits just tumbled right away. I still have the 86 but its a 50 cal now. 350gn o boolit just didnt seam like enough for that big gun. Now for the ocasional wooly mamoth I shoot a 700gn boolit through its 1/22" twist barrel, OUCH!!!! We both realy like the 510gn OW-WFN Dan made me though. 70% meplate and OH what a smack when it hits!!!
BIC/BS

[stardate2010]

Thanks for the info.
The reasoning for the longer chambering is for the longer bullet. I realize they will have to be hand fed for the first shot, and hopefully that will be all it takes. When I get to this project, will try to keep loads below the 1500fps mark, and closer to the 1000fps range. The SS Marlin with laminated stock will do just fine in my boat on the oceans of the world. I plan a circumnavigation when I retire and will need at least 3 long guns. The 45/70 will take care of any animal on the planet. Hopefully will never come to that, but if it does, want the horsepower to put an end to it immediately. Garrett makes some good reloaded ammo for it. Also plan to have a 12ga shotgun and a scoped semi-auto rifle in the .308 caliber onboard. I'll check out the NEI molds and see what they're like. If nothing else, I have a brother/machinist that could probably turn me a set of molds if I give him the specs.
Thanks again for the help.

Alan

[Finn45]

NEI458-645-GC from ww +some lino (IIRC) weighing 710 grains on the top of .45-70 case:

http://pyssymiehet.com/gunstuff/leecast.jpg

Nasty sucker for sure, but 1500fps is way beyond reach and 20" twist is probably too slow for it. Not enough shooting with it yet to say for sure. Btw it's not very practical to load overly long cartridge to Marlin, cuz if ya need to eject it, it won't eject... Marlin generally cycles, feeds and ejects, little longer than standard 2.55". Mine is tweaked some to cycle about 2.7" depending of the boolit nose shape.

[Buckshot]

...............WOW! Seated to feed and you'd have about the case capacity of a 45 Colt :bigsmyl2:

....................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

I don't know that a boolit over 500 grains is such a great idea in the 45-70. Dunno if you've fired such assemblies, but I have in the Ruger #1--and with the 550 grainer at, say, 1300 FPS in that 7-1/4" rifle it's about as much fun as tackling Jerome Bettis. Even at black powder velocities, there is a DEFINITE thump elevation from the 405 grainers. Add in the VERY short throat and steep rifling origin found in most 45-70 lever guns--just like my #1, and its "Government Ballseat"--the 300-405 grainers with the more abrupt ogive blending into a flat point make life a lot easier for repeaters. I "saw this movie" with an 1895 I had for a time, and factory bullets are shaped the way they are for a reason.

Back to bed, too excited about the trip in the morning!

[stardate2010]

Thanks again for all the input. I shoot the 750gr 50bmg rounds over here and they have a pretty hefty kick. Would be much worse if the compensator wasn't on the end of the barrel.
I agree the 550gr is about all that will be needed for most if not all animals on the planet, but if you are looking for penetration through other things like walls, etc, then the heavier bullet will be needed.
My ultimate bullet would be a 1000gr at 1000fps, but don't think the 458 will ever get to that level.
Alan

[SharpsShooter]

Sounds to me like you need a quality single shot and not a 1895 Marlin.

[wills]

I was thinking the same thing. What twist rate will a 750 need?

[stardate2010]

Hi Sharpshooter,
Yes a single shot rifle would be the ticket, if a backup shot were not needed. In the areas I plan on traveling, several rounds in the magazine are a safety factor if nothing else. That's why the heavy first round would be necessary with normal backup rounds in the tube. I have thought about the BLR and the magnum loads, and even the possibility of re-barreling a 300 Winmag to a 458 mag and working up loads to get the desired effect. Not sure if the BLR action can withstand the recoil of the 458 though.
Thanks again for the ideas.
Alan

[stardate2010]

Hi Wills,
The twist rate listed on the Marlin is 20? I think. The twistrate on the 50bmg is 15. But the velocities are at opposite ends of the table. I plan on pushing the 750 out the tube at about 1000fps, and haven't run the numbers through the tw calc. My guess is the bullet is about 1.75" or so and with the chamber reamed to the 45/90 specs would probably just fit in the 45/70 case. Not sure what powder would be recommended, so would have to just start with some loads and work up from there. Garrett uses +P in his 540gr slugs, although doesn't list how much, but just guessing it would be somewhere in the 10-12 gr area to get to the 1000fps.
Anyone tried any +P in their 500gr slugs?
Thanks again for any info.
Alan

[wills]

I think some of the people shooting 45-70 BPCR are shooting twist rates as fast as 1/16, and Paul Jones makes some fairly robust boolits http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/45_caliber.htm and I don’t think they are being pushed much faster than you intend to shoot yours, probably 1100, 1200.

According to COW first edition the original BP load produced 1315 fps with the 500 grain boolit.

You may be attempting something not feasible with that rifle.

http://www.sskindustries.com/50.htm