Favorite HV bolt gun .30 caliber or under

[Marlin Junky]

I would like to get some opinions from those who have dabbled in high velocity with rifles in the .25 to .30 caliber range. I'd like to start shooting a small bore more often and the features I'm looking for in addition to high velocity are 1) 1 MOA or better accuracy; 2) good mold selection; 3) standard chambering; 4) good component (brass and gas check) availability and I'd like all these attributes in a sporter weight bolt gun with a 22" barrel. Most of the time I'll be shooting at paper targets but I'd like to be able to cleanly kill varmints and predators out to 250 yards or so with cast bullets.

Thanks for your input,
MJ

[madcaster]

Stick with .30/06 Springfield I say!
As you see,lots of moulds,others have done plenty of testing and although what works in their gun may not work in yours,it may be a good thing to safely copy their trials...

[35remington]

Probably a .308, I'd guess.

Really, though, if you drop the stipulation that it kill game to 250 yards with cast bullets (that probably requires a bullet with a better BC and I dunno if a cast bullet can go there) and use jacketed for that, and insert the condition that it work well for small game, then you'd have the .257 Roberts, which certainly has a decent selection of bullets available.

It's fairly fast twist, but it's certainly a cast bullet shooter if you don't go too fast, and it duplicates the .25-20 with good accuracy. That makes it a pretty good dual purpose rifle for Nebraska.

I'm pretty pleased with mine.

I don't know of too many sub .30 calibers that would be suitable to a full 250 yards with a cast bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

Get a good bolt action and barrel with a .30 cal 14" twist barrel (Palma twist and most barrel makers furnish them) 26" long of medium/heavy sporter weight. Chamber it in .308W with a match reamer having a neck diameter of .343". This allows .0015 circumferance clearence with a .311 bullet seated. The .308W case allows sufficient case capacity for use of slower burning powders. Lots of good match loading dies and goodies available for the .308W. The longer barrel also allows for a slower accelleration curve to attain a high velocity yet still shouldn't be too heavy for a walk about rifle. My Palma rifle action in a sporter stock is not that heavy (10 lbs) and it has a light target 27.5" barrel. Lots of good .30 cal bullet moulds readily available or I might consider a custom LBT on the order of Bass's 154 gr bullet. The 311466 is a very good choice also. Given those tow bullets I might consider a 16" twist also.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Once you get under 30 the boolit selection dwindles, in some cases to one choice. I'd say either a 260 Rem/6.5x55 or 250 Savage/257 Roberts (short action/long action) if you want to go under 30. The 6.5 is a better performer in a production rifle than in a military twist. The 25 has more light boolits, the 6.5 will probably have more "game" boolits. It'd be a toss up for me.

[docone31]

I paper patch for my .30s, my 25-06 is next. Pdawg has wrapped 25cal castings and wrapped an gotten great results.
My thoughts would be on the choices,
A .308, with heavy barrel and ordinary stock opened up for the barrel. .257 Roberts. Same thing.
My custom .308, my wife calls it Black Beauty, is a paper patched .308 with heavy barrel, Fajen cheapo stock.
Good carry rifle, accurate as all get out, and sweet to the eyes. I polished the barrel and action to mirror bright, then blued it.
With a reciever sight, Lyman 57 and AUG front sight, it is a tack driver with anything put into it. Even my wife's daughter, the Liberal Attorney, first time shooting it, yeah I got a Liberal to actually shoot, HaH! she got on the black. Even enjoyed it, though she would not admit it. Spent the day at the range.
Well, that is what I would do. A .30 over smaller. Many molds, jacketed potentials, lots of loads. The 25s are not so broad with choices. 30-06 is a larger case, more powder consumption.

[bobk]

The problem, as I see it, is that to make clean kills at 250, you need a fairly flat trajectory. This implies velocity, and to do that, you would need a hard boolit. This means, even if you avoid the RPM problem and the thing shoots, the terminal performance will be zip. This is not humane. Just for grins, I took my .375 H&H woodchuck hunting one time, and one time only. Even a bullet that size will not give humane kills on woodchucks, given apparently no expansion. So, I think you're going to have to paper patch whatever boolit you shoot.

The problem with Larry's slow twist idea is that you end up with a very specialized rifle that won't handle heavier bullets. Me, I can't afford to be that specialized.

If I were to pursue this, myself, I would try the 311466, as Larry suggested, but given the 1-12 twist in .30-30s, this might give you all the velocity you could use, accurately. Running the numbers gives you 8" low at 250, sighted 3" high at 100. Now, if you COULD get 2700, with a .308 or something, this would put you 2" low at 250 with the same 3" high at 100. Velocity at 250 would be just a hair under 2000, so alloy becomes important. That slippery, high BC boolit isn't going to expand much with WW. The thing is, can you hit anything at that RPM level?

I have a bunch of 466s cast up, and a very accurate '06. For me, that's a starting point, see if I could get to the old 152(?) gr. ball load.

Whatever caliber you choose will have the same limitations. The high BC boolits necessary for flat shooting mean poor terminal performance, and softening the alloy might make them go wild. I hope you get very lucky, and share the results with us all, provided it's a cheap experiment.

Bob K

[Larry Gibson]

Not a "very specialized rifle that won't handle heavier bullets" at all. Simply matching the twist and barrel length to a cartridge for the use at question.

The 16" twist of the .32 Special "handles" bullets of 170 gr fine. Since I already know a 14" twist shoot cast bullets of 180 gr with excellent accuracy I would imagine the 16" twist would do that also considering the higher velocity of the .308W. However the 14" twist is my actual choice and it does just fine.

A 311041 with a muzzle velocity of 2400 fps still has 1600+ fps at 250 yards. Many here do not consider that as "zip terminal performance". Very good hunting accuracy can be obtained with WQ'd WWs (used by many to hunt deer with at even lower velocities than 1600 fps) at 2400 fps in the 14" twist. 311041 makes for a very effective deer killer, especially if HP'd. A HP'd 311466 would be even better.

Larry Gibson

[bobk]

Larry,
And I can't justify a usage that specialized. Show me the .308 with a 1-16 twist that will give accuracy to 250 with a 180 Partition, and I'll buy it. What twist do the benchers use when slinging 190s out of their .308s? Me, I don't want to build a gun that's only good with a couple of bullets.

I don't know of anyone who shoots their .32 at 250 yards, so I don't know how they hold up. But the .32 170 is shorter than the .30 170, and the point about the .308 may be irrelevant. Lyman, in the old manual I have, seems to limit their designs in .30 to 2200 FPS. Going faster will violate your RPM limit, so it may or may not shoot. Kinda thin ice, there.

As for the 311041, fine boolit, but not optimum for this proposed application. I have to doubt that WQ WW will expand at 1600. HPing a hard boolit may cause the nose to fracture, but this will not give a wound cavity that is both deep and wide. If you miss bone, I suspect it will pencil through. The problem is the choice of alloy. Anything with much antimony will have a more narrow range of acceptable performance than a lead-tin alloy. You work with HP shape and depth and get something that gives boolit expansion into a classical mushroom at 250 yards. OK we're set to go! And then we jump a deer at 25 yards. Wow, that was ugly! Bloodshot the whole front end!

The advantage of the boolit with the higher BC is that the range of velocity from muzzle to target is less, which will give a greater tendency toward consistent performance. However, the shape that cuts through the air the best will do the exact same thing when it enters the target, slip right through. The only way to have the best of both worlds is to cast a slippery boolit that changes it's shape when it enters the target. That's why we experiment with soft nose casting, nose annealing, and so forth. I'm going to cast some 466s out of 50/50 WW/pure, and paper patch them. Which of course means I'm going to have to get my chronograph repaired or replaced.

Bob K

[9.3X62AL]

MJ--

I recently asked myself the same question(s) your text addresses, and it is difficult for me to argue against the 30-06. Had that little Detective Special not shown up, some sort of 30-06 would have followed me home last month.

The 308 is certainly a fine choice, and might be a better one for "castings only" loading. But my bolt action sporters all will see some jacketed bullet usage--and if 180 grain+ bullet weights figure in the mix--I think the 30-06 does better work with the heavyweights than does the 308 as a game rifle (elk/moose/toothy critters). If varmints and predators are the only quarry, then 308 vs. 30-06 is a "push". Varmints and predators don't require heavy-for-caliber 30 bore bullets/boolits.

Gotta be a 30 caliber, if bullet and boolit mould selection is a factor for ya. Few other calibers offer a wider range of choices, if any.

[Larry Gibson]

bobk

Marlin Junkey posted; "Most of the time I'll be shooting at paper targets but I'd like to be able to cleanly kill varmints and predators out to 250 yards or so with cast bullets."

What part of that requires a 180 gr Nosler Partition? Seems to me that Marlin Junky is asking for something "specialized" so whether we can't "justify" it is not relevant to Marlin's question.

The Lyman 31041 is known to be a very accurate cast bullet and a very good killer, especially of varmints and predators. The slower 16" twist also opens up the possibilties of very accurate higher velocity loads with lighter bullets.

First of all, it is not a "RPM limit". I have explained that over and over again. Second of all the slower twists keep cast bullets withing the RPM threshold up through 2700 fps. No "thin ice" at all; I shoot the 311466 at 2600+ fps with 2" 10 shot groups at 100 yards out of my 14' twist .308W.

Your whole explanation on alloy is interesting but I refer yoou back to Marlin Junky's requirement. Expansion in deer is not mentioned. What is needed is the fracturing of the bullet for better and swifter killing of "varmints and predators". Also the flat meplat is there for increased terminal effectiveness. The "classic mushroom" you describe is not needed. 411466 at that velocity has proven effective on varmints and preditors at that range when cast of WQ'd WWs because it does shatter on impact.

I do find the idea of the 466 cast of 50/50 and PP'd intriguing. I'm wondering how fast I can push that in my 14' twist .308 with say 1.5 moa accuracy (2500-2600 fps?). That should indeed be deadly on varmints and deer.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

The 30-06 with a 12" to 14" twist was what I gravitated to initially because of its longer neck than the .308. Chances are I would need to concoct a custom bullet design to hold more lube once things start going haywire at 2500 fps. Then I started looking at the .284" mold offerings (with the idea of acquiring my fist ever .280R) and noticed a few I liked but usually barrels in that caliber (and .257) are pretty shallow grooved with fast twists. Perhaps I'll start with a Ruger M77 in .308. As far as terminal performance is concerned on critters the size of coyotes, porcupines and raccoons, a Lyman 311041 cast of 50/50, HT'd to BHN 30 with the nose drawn back to 10 and lauched at 2500+ may do the trick out to 200+ yards. The heaviest bullet I'd ever want to shoot through this gun is probably RCBS 30-180FN just because it shoots so well and I've got two molds for them. Most of the time I'd want to utilize something lighter but not so light as to sacrifice down range performance.

MJ

[bobk]

Larry,
I was just using the 180 Partition as an example of a common, do-it-all bullet.

Yes, the 311041 has a reputation as a good killer, but that reputation was not built upon the terminal performance of hard boolits impacting at 250 yards.

What's the RPM of that 466 load?

I just grabbed "deer" as a potential target. MJ mentioned predator hunting, and a boolit that will blow up a deer will ruin a pelt.

I don't put that much faith in the flat meplat, based upon some experiences I have had. Oh, if it strikes bone, it probably works well, but I've shot enough things with flat noses, but no expansion, to know that I don't want to do it again. As for fragmentation, I just found a commercially cast 170 Gr. (advertised as 180) from the now defunct National Bullet. Shoots wonderfully well out of a Colt with tight throats and bore. I use the Forster hollowpointer to take about 5 Gr. out of the nose. That said, the terminal performance on newspapers isn't close to 158 XTP HPs. It's a dilemma. I got a group at 50 that was under an inch, with a red dot, with the cast.

My idea with the 466 would be to start with 49-50 Gr. 4895. I used to use 47 of that powder behind a 168 Sierra as my standard accuracy load in '06s.

Bob K

[Marlin Junky]

According to my calculations, a .30 cal. with a 14" twist would be like a .35 cal. with a 16-1/4" twist so I may go with the 14" twist if I can't find a .30 cal. 13" twist with the bore/groove dimensions I'm looking for. Krieger has 13" and 13.5" twists but the bore diameters are .298" which seems a bit tight.

MJ

[felix]

http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/ ... felix

[buck1]

The .308 is a fine choice. Thats what I used with the RCBS 165 gr SIL.
BUT the short neck limited bullet selection (exposed lube groves and all).
If I had it to do over I would prefer the 3006 or the 3040 with that nice neck.

[rockrat]

308W or 30-06 would be my choices. Paper patch for high velocity and your kills out to 250yds Probably could use 1-20 alloy and a heavy boolit, for good results. Lighter weights for paper punching.

[Marlin Junky]

http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/ ... felix

Felix,

Thanks for the link but it looks like their barrels are 4 and 5 groove. What about the Shilen 8 groove barrels?

MJ

[felix]

MJ, I actually prefer an odd number of grooves because that is more gentle to the boolit during engraving. They will make any barrel you want by asking them, including 7 lands, at any reasonable height. Their tooling is completely computerised. About the only barrel company having equipment to this level. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

bobk

"I was just using the 180 Partition as an example of a common, do-it-all bullet."

That's ok, I was just trying to keep on track with marlin's question is all.

"Yes, the 311041 has a reputation as a good killer, but that reputation was not built upon the terminal performance of hard boolits impacting at 250 yards."

Well, the 311041s reputation was made in 30-30s out to 150 yards with a muzzle velocity around 2000 fps. That translates to less than 1600 fps at 150 yards. The 1600 fps at 250 yards from the .308W should be just as effective.

"What's the RPM of that 466 load?"

the 311466 at 2600 fps out of the 14" twist runs 133,700 RPM.

"I just grabbed "deer" as a potential target. MJ mentioned predator hunting, and a boolit that will blow up a deer will ruin a pelt."

I concur with that but Marlin didn't mention anything about damage to pelts. I did offer 2 alternative bullets that may or may not blow up, depending on range.

"I don't put that much faith in the flat meplat, based upon some experiences I have had. Oh, if it strikes bone, it probably works well, but I've shot enough things with flat noses, but no expansion, to know that I don't want to do it again. As for fragmentation, I just found a commercially cast 170 Gr. (advertised as 180) from the now defunct National Bullet. Shoots wonderfully well out of a Colt with tight throats and bore. I use the Forster hollowpointer to take about 5 Gr. out of the nose. That said, the terminal performance on newspapers isn't close to 158 XTP HPs. It's a dilemma. I got a group at 50 that was under an inch, with a red dot, with the cast."

My "faith" in FP and SWC is that they are better than RN bullets but I still prefer a good expanding bullet, cast or jacketed. However, I do have to say that above 1800 fps or so there is a marked difference between FP and RN cast bullets when shot out of rifles. The FPs are far and away more effective. You should see what a HP 313631 cast of WWs +2% tin at 1950 fps out of a M1 Carbine does to a coyote!

"My idea with the 466 would be to start with 49-50 Gr. 4895. I used to use 47 of that powder behind a 168 Sierra as my standard accuracy load in '06s."

That might be a decent load in a 14 or 16" twist '06 but in a 10" 06 accuracy would be very questionable.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Felix,

Thanks for the link but it looks like their barrels are 4 and 5 groove. What about the Shilen 8 groove barrels?

MJ


Marlin

I've been looking at the Shilen barrels. I'm not really sure about the 8 grooves at the velocity with cast we are talking. Would be nice to hear from someone having a Shien .30 cal barrel with 8 grooves who shoots cast? My Palma barrel is a 4 groove Shultz and Larson and it does well. Going to a true custom barrel maker may be the best way.

I'm thinking of rebarreling a M788 pretty much the way I suggested. I may start looking for a barrel maker myself.

Larry Gibson

[docone31]

If you want a really good .30cal heavy barrel, I have had extremely good luck with my Adams and Bennett size 54. It came short chambered in .308 so I made it .308. It loves paper patched loads, heavy jacketeds and 110 carbine bullets.
I figuired, it was not either a Kreiger, or Shilen, or Douglas so for 80$ who cares.
Well, it turns out one of them might have made it!
I believe Adams and Bennett farms them out.
It is one heck of a barrel. 24" match muzzle, and it comes pre polished. I only had to spin polish it for high grade blueing which it took without issue.
I got two in stainless for my wife and myself in .243 for his and hers, and one in .308 for my carry target.
Kinda heavy, but I got it for that reason. They make a stock that it drops right in for under 60$, which is actually pretty good. Drop in fit. I bedded mine, gotta mill out the bolt handle for bent handle, trigger guard and mag well fit directly in with no inletting. It is steel pillar bedded.
I am actually bored with it. It can outshoot me, no exotic work needed. Just drilling the reciever for the Lyman #57 reciever sight, and the AUG front sight. In reflection, I should have gone with a ramp instead of a globe. With a scope, it is sweeeeet. I got the Barska 6-24 X 55. Worth every penny. Goes white on extreme magnification, short of that, great scope.

[Marlin Junky]

Are there any factory '06's out there with a 12" twist?

MJ

[beagle]

Think I'd go for a .30/06 with the RCBS 30-180-SP and have Buckshot HP one cavity....or a .257 Roberts with the 25-120-SP RCBS with one cavity HP'd.

Both guns have done well for me with those bullet combos and I'm a bit partial to the Roberts as it handles light stuff like the #257312 just fine./beagle

[Pioneer2]

Husqvarna G/63 target rifle in 6.5x55 of course............................Harold

[docone31]

I have a G-63 in 7.62! One of a few made.
My wife claimed it and it fits her like a glove.
She started on it.
It loves paper patches.

[Pioneer2]

Accurate arn;t they? There is also an 80..........................much rarer...........Harold

[docone31]

Dude, I saw that G-63 just sitting there, crappy scope, Norwegian Barrel, lookin like an unloved wall hanger.
I haggled a price, a real low ball. I knew what it was, the shop owner had it on his rack for four years without anyone even noticeing it was there.
I got it for the wife. I had been building her a .243 with Richards stock, a Culbertson, heavy barrel, dimensioned for her. The barrel was a short chamber and he had taken 3yrs to start on it. When he was done, the front sight was 15* off center.
I got that Swede, she had not fired a rifle yet. Brought some MilSurp to the range, showed her how to load it, unload it, the safety, how to hold it. The usual stuff.
She tossed 500rds downrange that day! Not even an issue. It is her favourite rifle of all of them.
She asked me how much heat the barrel could take. I told her if she could not kiss the barrel, she could not shoot it. It was almost glowing! I knew where there are a few more so I did not care. The MilSurp barrels go right in without needing headspace work. The Swedes are like that. Turkish Mausers will directly accept Swede Small ring barrels in 6.5 X 55 just by trimming off the front overhang on the reciever.
That rifle fit her like a glove right on, she loves it, and TAKES CARE of it!
If anyone finds one, they are worth every penny. It doesn't matter, 6.5 or 7.62. They are really something.
The one addition I did was to make two recoil pads for it. One for my pull, one for her. I use plexiglass glued together for the spacer.
I would love to have the original sights, but my eyes....... Too many years have gone by.
A scope will do now.

[docone31]

I forgot to add, she is eyeing my Enfield #1MKIII. She prefers my paper patched loads to other loads. When she wants to hit the inner ring, she prefers my .30cal patched loads. She single fires the Swede.
Mostly, she is relaxed at the range with the centerfires.
That Swede opened doors for her.
It will be with us for a long time.

[Pioneer2]

The 6.5 G-63 is giving the .308 a run for it's $ at the 1000 yard mark as well and easier on the shooter.Nothing against the .308 but I hunt with the 6.5 Swede.FWT 70,Husky 38 military and my son's Xmas gift a SS T-3.Never recovered a bullet yet even from moose........Good shooting..................Harold *****just scooped a Husqvarna FN 98 in 9.3x62[lots of G-63's available in Canada most with fancy Olympic style peeps for $500-$600 and broomhandle sized barrels]

[MoldyJoe]

No one has mentioned a 270 Win yet. Is there a problem with with it? I have only used the J word when reloading for it, but was thinking of buying a mould. Joe

[1Shirt]

As always on this forum, many good words of wisdom. I would go for 308 or 7x57, both great jacketed or cast shooters. Took my 7x57 to Africa and made kills to over 400yd on 4-500 lb animals sucessfully. Either ctg. will do what you want it to do. Nothing wrong with 270 either, but cast selection is skimpy and a bigger case.
Just my opinion.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[docone31]

There is a caster who is developing a paper patched 270 load.
Might work real well with the .270. Push it at jacketed speeds.

[Larry Gibson]

Are there any factory '06's out there with a 12" twist? MJ

The old Huskvarna and Browning 78 '06s had 12" twists. All other factory barrels are 10" twists. I've 2 of the A&B barrels with 10" twists. One an'06 and the other a .308W. Both do well with cast as the rifling is deep but they are limited in velocity by the 10' twists.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

The .270 was on my list because of the long neck until I went to look for molds and gaschecks. Maybe when the 6.8xwhatever the heck it is that the military has recently adopted becomes more popular we might see more interest in casting tools for that caliber. In the mean time, I'm leaning toward a 7x57 with a slower than usual twist but would like to know about other casters' results with the few RCBS, SAECO and Lyman designs that are available in 7mm. The 160-something grain boolits will probably be ruled out while using an 11" twist and I won't need boolits that heavy anyway assuming the largest critter I'll use it on is a coyote. Therefore, we have a 135 grain round nose design by Lyman; a couple 145 grain designs by SAECO; and, a 145 grain Silhouette design from RCBS. Personally, the only boolits that looks like they would be OK at 2500+ fps are the SAECO 281 or Lyman 287346. QuickLoad says there's a couple or three powders that'll take RCBS 7mm-145-SIL to 2600 fps from a 22" barrel while hovering around 40K PSI, so this may be promising. Now to see if it's realistic, financially.

What can you guys tell me about 7x57 chambers/reamers? Do they usually have a lot of throat?

MJ

[Pioneer2]

The 6.8 is a .270 based on a shortened .30 Rem case to function through the existing M-16 magazines.All that needs to be changed is the upper reciever[barrel/boltface opened up].110-115 gr bullets at 2800 fps...........the .30 Rem looks like a rimless 30-30..............Harold

[ktw]

The .270 was on my list because of the long neck until I went to look for molds and gaschecks.

It works for me. It's what I already had in the way of a rifle when I got into casting. I haven't found it a difficult cartridge to work with.

You don't need a wide variety of molds to achieve success. One or two good ones are enough. The RCBS 27-150-SP is readily available and works well in my rifles. Given the relatively low interest in casting for the 270 the older discontinued molds tend to go for bargain prices compared to some of the more popular 30 caliber molds.

When you do find 270 gas checks at a gun show or on the back of a dealer's shelf they tend to just want to get rid of them and price them accordingly. I was able to pick up 5k or 6k cheap over the course of a year just by keeping an eye out for them.

-ktw

[felix]

You might enjoy the 7BR, provided you can find some ready made cases with the small primer. That would be a 35 grain case, probably about equal to the 6.8. Offhand, that would be my choice because of the many different powders you can use full tilt and make 2400 fps with the appropriate boolit. I would opt for a 50 percent meplat at 100-120 grains. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

I'm leaning back to '06. How fast would a 180 grain BOOLIT (not a super pointy, low drag BULLET) need to be launched in order to be stabilized out to 300 yards by a 14" twist? A 180 grain boolit would be the heaviest boolit I'd want to shoot at HV (2700 fps or thereabouts).

MJ

[Scrounger]

Where did you find an '06 with a 14 inch twist? Ten inch is common with them, twelve inch with the .308; fourteen inch would definitely be a custom barrel.

Go here to get free Greenhill computation: http://www.z-hat.com/twistrate.htm

[Marlin Junky]

Ten inch is common with them, twelve inch with the .308; fourteen inch would definitely be a custom barrel.

Fully aware of that. I was thinking the Marlin XL-7 in 30-'06 might be a good purchase in that I could pull the factory barrel and save it for the copper patched stuff and substitute a custom twist barrel for the cast stuff. The whole XL-7 goes for less than a decent Mauser action.

MJ