Cast bullets for the beginner

[joeb33050]

We need help here. This is the beginning.
joe b.
CAST BULLETS FOR THE BEGINNER

This is a recipe intended to quickly get the beginning cast bullet shooter to a point of reasonable accuracy, that I define as reliably repeatable sets of five 5 shot groups averaging under 2” at 100 yards.

The “musts”
The shooter must be at least familiar with reloading, willing to learn how to cast bullets, and own or be prepared to buy the necessary equipment and to carefully cast, load, shoot and record the results. (Much used reloading and casting equipment is available at various shooting forums or auction sites.)
The gun must be a commercial non-military bolt-action 30-caliber rifle, such as a Savage, Remington, or Ruger.
The sight/s must be a telescopic sight of at least 6 power, preferably with an adjustment to eliminate parallax, or, as a more expensive and less desirable alternative, a set of good aperture iron sights.
The caliber must be 30/06 or 308 Win. with another 30 caliber cartridge as a distant third choice.
The bullets must be of good quality, gas checked, sized correctly, lubed with NRA Alox lube.
The powder and charge must be appropriate for the cartridge and bullet. Lower velocity loads from the Lyman 48th Reloading Handbook should be used.
The bench rest equipment and technique must be adequate to allow precision shooting.
Meticulous records must be kept of all casting, loading and shooting information.

Explaining some “musts”
The gun
Commercial non-military because military rifles are more difficult to get shooting than today’s commercial rifles, and have poor sights.
30 caliber, because we know more about shooting 30 caliber cast bullets than any other caliber.
Bolt action, because they are much easier to get shooting accurately than any lever, pump, auto loading or single shot rifle.
The sights
Telescopic sights available today are very good at very low prices compared to scopes of the past.
Even precision micrometer adjustable iron sights are a disadvantage compared to an inexpensive = <$100 scope sight.
The caliber
We know a lot about shooting 30/06 and 308 Win, and the “must” rifles are available in those calibers.

Casting, sizing, gas checking and lubing the bullets
Use a Lyman mold. They’re available, of good quality, and tested over time. The 311299 or 314299 or 311041 are my favorites, and strongly recommend them.
Cast the bullets from wheel weights with maybe a little tin added. (I don’t need or use the tin.)
Visually inspect the bullets, re-cycle the rejects. Weigh sort them if you wish.
The following 3 steps require a Lyman 45 or 450 or 4500 lubrisizer, or some other lubrisizer or Lee rig. I only know about Lyman.
Seat the gas checks in a separate operation.
Size the bullets to the correct diameter.
Lubricate the bullets with NRA Alox lube.

Reloading
Get at least 120 good cartridge cases from the same lot, at least with the same headstamp.
Full-length size them.
Measure the lengths and trim to the same length as necessary.
Chamfer the case mouths in and out.
Clean the primer pockets.
“M”-die the cases. This is absolutely mandatory, and means that a press is required.
Prime
Cartridge “lot” size is 35, make a set of 35 cartridges for each trial load.
Charge with powder.
Inspect the cases with a flashlight to detect “no powder” and “double charges”.
Seat the bullet to the correct overall length.

Shooting
Shoot only on a day with reasonable weather. No hurricanes or blizzards.
Use a reasonable front and rear rest. Rests can be made of shot bags or blue jean legs, or bought for prices ranging from OK to crazy. I have used a Hoppe’s front rest as well as home made rests, and they all work well.
Push a patch through the barrel.
Get comfortable at the bench.
Shoot 3 foulers, and then two 5-shot groups for record in about 15 minutes. Don’t let the barrel get too hot!
Clean the barrel.
Shoot 3 foulers, and then two 5-shot groups for record in about 15 minutes. Don’t let the barrel get too hot!
Clean the barrel.
Shoot 3 foulers, and then ONE 5-shot group for record in about 10 minutes. Don’t let the barrel get too hot!
Clean the barrel.
You’ve shot five 5-shot groups and 9 foulers for 34 shots. What about the #35 cartridge? If you call a pulled shot, you’ll need that #35 cartridge to make the fifth shot in the group.

Recording the data
Write everything down. Write the reloading data down when you reload, and the shooting data on the day you shoot. DON’T WAIT FOR TOMORROW, YOU’LL FORGET SOMETHING.
Write down the powder charge and primer make and lot numbers if you wish and the overall length and bullet # and just everything. If you pull a shot, honk it out of the group, and if you call it honked before you look through the scope, then take another shot for record. Don’t lie to yourself.

[runfiverun]

joe:
i am in full favor of about half of what was said there.
for a brand new guy i would recommend he starts with a revolver.
you also didn't really make any kind of recommendations except for nra lube, a scope,and 30 caliber.
what if he don't have a 308?
and has a 35 remington?

[Bret4207]

Or a 44 or 45 or 7mm or 338 or 45/70? I think you need to define a good boolit first Joe. That goes for handguns and rifles. Cover getting the alloy from the pot into the mould and building the best boolit you can. Yes, that's covered in other areas but needs referencing here too. WHY and M die is so helpful needs covering, things like that.

As I sadin in another post a "Trouble Shooting" table might be a better choice, one that addresses all those variables you dislike so much.

[Boerrancher]

WHY and M die is so helpful needs covering, things like that.

I don't know what an M die is, so I probably don't own one or even know how to use one if I did. But I do Know that I can do this
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk155/Boerrancher/101_0200.jpg
with a mil spec 03-A3 Springfield at 100 yards for 3 shots, and do it rather consistently as long as I let the rifle cool after 3 shots. For some cast loads in rifles I think a 2 MOA group for 5 shots is unrealistic. Most commercial rifles unless they have a synthetic stock are not properly bedded and floated, thus any increase in barrel temp translates to pressure on the barrel from the stock, not to mention changes in relative humidity, will result is a change in the point of impact.

I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade. You have a lot of good information there Joe, but I do agree with Bret, you have left out a lot of variables that a trouble shooting table would address.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

Joe, I only argue with your title. "For Beginning Target Shooter", perhaps. For the true beginner 2" at 100yds is well beyond what they expect. The true beginner should start with the above suggested revolver, 45-70, or 30-30, the latter two most likely found in a lever action. 4" @100yds is a realistic but laudable goal for these.

I really don't think you are talking to the beginning caster here. This is advanced casting, perhaps a primer of such, but advanced casting.

[joeb33050]

CAST BULLETS FOR THE BEGINNER

This is a recipe intended to quickly get the beginning cast bullet shooter to a point of reasonable accuracy, that I define as reliably repeatable sets of five 5 shot groups averaging under 2” at 100 yards.
It is not the ONLY recipe, it may not be the BEST recipe, but it is a recipe that will work.
It does NOT concentrate on cost.)

The “musts”
The shooter must be at least familiar with reloading, willing to learn how to cast bullets, and own or be prepared to buy the necessary equipment and to carefully cast, load, shoot and record the results. (Much used reloading and casting equipment is available at various shooting forums or auction sites.)
The gun must be a commercial non-military bolt-action 30-caliber rifle, such as a recent Savage, a Remington, or a Ruger.
The sight/s must be a telescopic sight of at least 6 power, preferably with an adjustment to eliminate parallax, or, as a more expensive and less desirable alternative, a set of good aperture iron sights.
The caliber must be 30/06 or 308 Win.
The bullets must be 311299 or 314299, of good quality, gas checked, sized correctly, lubed with a good commercial lubricant.
The powder must be IMR 4227. The charge must be appropriate for the cartridge and bullet. Lower velocity loads from the Lyman 48th Reloading Handbook should be used.
The bench rest equipment and technique must be adequate to allow precision shooting.
Meticulous records must be kept of all casting, loading and shooting information.

Explaining some “musts”
The Gun
“Commercial non-military bolt-action 30-caliber rifle” because
Today’s commercial rifles are easier to get shooting than military rifles. (A custom military Mauser might also work.)
Most bolt-action rifles are easier to get shooting than lever, pump, auto loading or single shot rifle. Military rifles generally have poor sights.
We know more about shooting 30 caliber cast bullets than any other caliber.

The sights
Telescopic sights available today are very good at very low prices compared to scopes of the past.
Even precision micrometer adjustable iron sights are a disadvantage compared to an inexpensive = <$100 scope sight.

The caliber
We know a lot about shooting 30/06 and 308 Win, and the “must” rifles are available in those calibers.

The bullets
The 311299 or 314299 work.

The powder
IMR 4227 works.

Some “How To” Notes:

The Bullets
Cast the bullets from wheel weights with maybe a little tin added.
Visually inspect the bullets, re-cycle the rejects. Weigh sort the bullets if you wish.
(The following steps require a Lyman 45 or 450 or 4500 lubrisizer, RCBS or Saeco lubrisizer or Lee Lube and Size kit.)
Seat the gas checks in a separate operation.
Size the bullets to the correct diameter.
Lubricate the bullets with a good commercial lube, such as NRA Alox lube. No homemade lubes!

Fitting the bullets to the gun
The 311299 and 314299 bullets are about 200 grains with bore riding noses. The 314299 bullets are a bit larger than 311299s, the noses are larger in diameter, and, until sized, the base bands are larger.
Both bullet molds today are 2 cavity. Mark the cavities so that you can tell which cavity the bullets came from. There is always a difference in bullet weight and some dimensions from one cavity to the other.

Cast bullets are not round, and dimensions of the as cast nose and base bands show this. I cannot ever recall a bullet with dimensions +/- a tenth, (.0001”), and normally 3 or 4 or more tenths difference is the rule.

Here’s what you want for bullet fit.
1. The cartridge should go in the gun with a bit of resistance.
2. When you put the cartridge in the gun, and then take it out, the bullet must come out with the cartridge case. No de-bulleting!
3. The base of the bullet should be in the neck, not down inside the case. If just the gas check is below the neck, there’s generally no problem.
4. The nose of the bullet should be engraved by each land of the rifling.
5. The forward-most end of the front base band should slightly mash into the origin of the rifling.

More tin and/or antimony in the alloy yield slightly larger bullets.
Sizing the bullet in a lubrisizer makes the nose larger.
Bigger as-cast to sized differences make the nose larger than smaller differences. Size a .314” to .308” and the nose will bump up more than when sizing from .314” to .312”.
Softer bullet noses bump up more than harder bullet noses.

Bullets with base bands sized to different dimensions will have different overall lengths.

Rifle barrel lands at the chamber end wear or erode, so that cartridge overall length increases as the rifle is shot.

If the cartridge that goes in the gun has a lot of base band below the neck, change something.
If the cartridge goes in the gun, has just the gas check in the case mouth and doesn’t engrave the bullet nose, change something.

If both 314299 cavities make bullets too big, go to the 311299. If they’re too small, either the gun or the mold is incorrect.
If both 311299 cavities make bullets that are too small, go to the 314299. If they’re too big, either the gun or the mold is incorrect.

Reloading
Get at least 120 good cartridge cases from the same lot, at least with the same headstamp.
Full-length size them. (New cases will shorten when fired. Used cases won’t, much.)
Measure the lengths and trim to the same length. (Same length cases are required for proper case mouth “belling” with the “M” die.)
Chamfer the case mouths in and out.
Clean the primer pockets.
(Lee makes inexpensive tools to chamfer case mouths, trim cases to length and clean primer pockets.)
Bell the case mouths with a Lyman “M” die in a press.
Prime (Lee makes a great and inexpensive priming tool.)
Any large rifle primer will work fine.
Cartridge “lot” size is 35, make a set of 35 cartridges for each trial load.
Charge with powder.

Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook
308 Win., 311299 at 200 grains
IMR 4227
19.5 grains starting load to 26 grains maximum load
Start with 18 grains, and then go up in 1-grain steps to 22 grains

30/06 Springfield, 311299 at 200 grains
IMR 4227
21 grains starting load to 29 grains maximum load
Start with 19 grains, and then go up in 1-grain steps to 24 grains
ALWAYS CHECK A PUBLISHED LOAD TO SEE IF IT MAKES SENSE!!!!

Inspect the cases with a flashlight to detect “no powder” and “double charges”.
Seat the bullet to the correct overall length.

Shooting
Shoot only on a day with reasonable weather. No hurricanes or blizzards.
Use a reasonable front and rear rest. Rests can be made of shot bags or blue jean legs, or bought for prices ranging from OK to crazy. I have used a Hoppe’s front rest as well as home made rests, and they all work well.
Push a patch through the barrel.
Get comfortable at the bench.
Shoot 3 foulers, and then two 5-shot groups for record in about 15 minutes. Don’t let the barrel get too hot!
Clean the barrel.
Shoot 3 foulers, and then two 5-shot groups for record in about 15 minutes. Don’t let the barrel get too hot!
Clean the barrel.
Shoot 3 foulers, and then ONE 5-shot group for record in about 10 minutes. Don’t let the barrel get too hot!
Clean the barrel.
You’ve shot five 5-shot groups and 9 foulers for 34 shots. What about the #35 cartridge? If you call a pulled shot, you’ll need that #35 cartridge to make the fifth shot in the group.

Recording the data
Write everything down. Write the reloading data down when you reload, and the shooting data on the day you shoot. DON’T WAIT FOR TOMORROW, YOU’LL FORGET SOMETHING.
Write down the powder charge and primer make and lot numbers if you wish and the overall length and bullet # and just everything. If you pull a shot, honk it out of the group, and if you call it honked before you look through the scope, then take another shot for record. Don’t lie to yourself.

[leftiye]

I think a step by step format with "why" explanations accompanying each step is preferrable. For one thing the reader won't get bogged down in requirements like I did, and he won't maybe be reading about a gun/cartridge that he doesn't own and has zilch for interest in.

This is how boolits are poured, these are the techniques, these are the pieces of equipment that you must have, these are the variations, this is how sizing is done, this is why, this is how accuracy is obtained, these are the ramifications of boolit hardness, these are lubes that can be tried, these are the ones that work worth a spit (what is a good lube), these are the ramifications of lubes as invloves velocity. etc.

[Bret4207]

Could you make bold the changes please?

[HABCAN]

Shooters are more independent-minded than most. The thread title will attract many, but I think your 'Musts' will turn away more newbies than they will induce to work with the Silver Stream.

All that you have said is good stuff, no question. It's the approach that irks.

[joeb33050]

I think a step by step format with "why" explanations accompanying each step is preferrable. For one thing the reader won't get bogged down in requirements like I did, and he won't maybe be reading about a gun/cartridge that he doesn't own and has zilch for interest in.

This is how boolits are poured, these are the techniques, these are the pieces of equipment that you must have, these are the variations, this is how sizing is done, this is why, this is how accuracy is obtained, these are the ramifications of boolit hardness, these are lubes that can be tried, these are the ones that work worth a spit (what is a good lube), these are the ramifications of lubes as invloves velocity. etc.

At some point I'll mention that "Cast Bullets For Beginner And Expert", Second Edition, can be found and read online at: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/
The book is in "FILES", the Table Of Contents is in "The Beginning"
I'm hoping that this will be part of the book, and now the book is available to the "BEGINNER", so the techniques are covered there-in the existing book.
Does that make sense?
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Shooters are more independent-minded than most. The thread title will attract many, but I think your 'Musts' will turn away more newbies than they will induce to work with the Silver Stream.

All that you have said is good stuff, no question. It's the approach that irks.

This is a recipe. It deals with non-military rifles. It doesn't deal with military rifles, or pump guns, or jacketed bullets.
A brownie recipe doesn't include garlic, hmmm. The fact that a person has some garlic doesn't mean that the recipe is wrong.
Does that make sense?
joe b.

[joeb33050]

I'm trying to get some help on the CBA forum, and just posted this there.



I have made several tries at this, none are satisfactory so far. Here's the question, posed different ways.

Start with the accuracy-enhancing actions

change lube, change primer, change sized diameter, change powder, vary powder charge by 1 or 1/2 or 1/10 grains, vary hardness, make the cases = chamber length - .005"??, weigh segregate bullets, or cases, or primers, or gas checks, anneal gas checks, trim cases to length, turn case necks, size necks in a Redding or Wilson replaceable bushing neck sizer, throat ream, re-crown, uniform primer pockets, de-burr flash holes, uniform ream flash holes ..........................

Question: Write them all down in order of importance.

Or, Question: Draw a scale left to right from 4" to zero, standing for group sizes. Then, identify which action/s should be taken to move group size below some number. Let's say you've got a rifle shooting 3" 5-shot 100 yard groups reliably. What action/s should you take, FIRST (in order of importance) or FIRST (in order of least cost.)

Probably nobody thinks that annealing gas checks is going to improve a 3" rifle a lot.

So, my present expedition, startrd on Cast Boolits, is to write the recipe for making 2" groups at 100 yards, and when a lot of agreement is found, ask what actions should come next. One option is to have a rail gun made at enormous cost, here the cost element comes in.

As a byproduct, or the original product, we might just end up with a chapter on how and what the beginner might do.

Does this make sense?

joe b.

[Boerrancher]

This is just me, but if I am trying to work up an accuracy load, I start with the same mfg/headstamped brass fired once out of the rifle I am wanting to work on a load for. Then before I load them again I do all of the following: deburr the flash hole, and make them all uniform; inside neck ream and trim to the proper length; uniform the primer pockets; bevel the case mouth inside and out. If I am really picky I will weigh them all and only keep the ones that are plus or minus 0.5 grs, the rest go back for plinking and hunting.

After all of that is done, then I start working on a load and doing the rest of the things you have mentioned as I feel they are needed. Here is something else to consider, and once I mention it I am sure you and everyone else has seen these people at the range. I am talking about the guy that has a real nice rifle that looks like it should shoot reasonably well and the guy is shooting all over the map. You get to looking and he has his front sand bag place out near the end of the stock, he is wrapping his thumb around the wrist of the stock at the pistol grip, has his finger stuck as far through the trigger as he can get it, and if he is using a sandbag to support the but stock it is not doing him much good because his non firing hand is up underneath the forearm instead of on the rear sand bag squeezing it to make minute adjustments. The guy wants to shoot good but has no clue as to the proper techniques to use to shoot good off of the bench. I can promise you there are a good number of people who reload and shoot and will never do better than a 3 in group at 100 yards because no one has ever taught them how to properly shoot.

I think it is a great idea to try and address as many problems as you can that can come from the components or the gun, but some people will never be able to shoot a 2 inch group at 100 yards, even if you was to give them the rifle and ammo that would do it.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Frank46]

Joe, one thing a beginning cast boolit shooter should do is make sure that all copper fouling has been removed from his barrel. And that if he shoots condoms after doing boolits that copper should be removed before going back to cast boolits. I've watched a beginning cast boolit shooter getting discouraged with his first efforts shooting a 311284 in a springfield that had been sporterized. Started doing the 20 questions routine with him and he mentioned that he had not really cleaned his barrel after shooting jacketed. I explained why and since he had never slugged his barrel explained the process and why it should be done so he knows what size his boolits should be. He had everything right except the first two items. Saw him a few weeks later and he came over and showed me some targets. 2" groups at 100yds.
Two very happy shooters. Frank

[Maven]

Some suggestions (predicated on using the aforementioned rifles):
1) AA 5744 @ 19 - 22grs. is an excellent CB powder. H/IMR 4198 @ 20 - 24grs. will also work with the CB's mentioned, but 5744 is better. Should also consider C.E. Harris' "universal load" of 16grs. Alliant/Hercules 2400.

2) Lyman #311467 or posssibly -466 are definitely worth trying, but somewhat hard to find. Saeco #315 should be considered too, but is a Rara Avis.

3) To improve accuracy with factory rifles consider:
a) a trigger job/trigger replacement;
b) having the rifle bedded;
c) deburring the flash hole (maybe);
d) NOT uniforming the primer pockets since there's no payoff in doing so (In a bench rifle @ 1,000 yds. maybe.)
e) NOT turning the case necks for a standard chamber (If the empty brass is so eccentric, it shouldn't be used for "record" shots anyway.)
f) orienting the CB's & loaded rounds a la Frank Marshall, Jr.'s suggestion.

[felix]

Boolit fit is FIRST and foremost. ... felix

[1Shirt]

Some good info here----BUT, to add my two cents, I think that finding a mentor (hate the yippy word) who is willing to teach casting to the beginner is very important. Kind of like the thought of starting with a handgun. A 38 Special is (to me) one of the easiest to load and cast for, and is very forgiving of minimal quality cast blts. Reading the Lyman manual to me is an absolute must, two or three times is even better. To long a list of musts to me would be a turn off for a newbe.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[sundog]

I'm with Felix. Boolit fit is job one. If it's gonna shoot, you'll see it right away. Early results may not be stellar, but it does not take all that many shots to tell if a boolit will work. If the shooter and equipment are not up to the task, then the ammo question is moot.

[Larry Gibson]

joe33050

I think you've got a very good basic "CAST BULLETS FOR THE BEGINNER" recipe. With basic reloading knowledge the beginning cast bullet shooter should be able to load some pretty good loads to meet his purpose. I believe you are talking about the guy who is just starting out. Maybe he picked up a box of commercial cast bullets or was given some. A lot of the additional comments are for the more advanced cast bullet reloader. Those steps are what the reloader will learn along the way by reading the complete book along with others like Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook. The reloader may also learn more by frequenting this forum or others.

My point is; the basic recipe is good and will get the reloader loading good cast bullet loads without overwelming him. Good job.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

i am in the felix and sundog camp here.
the best accuracy i expect from a known rifle is the same, with a flgc,or a cast boolit.
if you want the best results you have to put the best down range.
i have a number of rifles that will give better accuracy with cast then jacketed.
but all of them will shoot the same size groups at 100 yds with either.

i think teaching proper casting techniques,and how to fit a boolit to a throat. will do more for good groups [from anything] then all the tricks you can print.

[joeb33050]

Some suggestions (predicated on using the aforementioned rifles):
1) AA 5744 @ 19 - 22grs. is an excellent CB powder. H/IMR 4198 @ 20 - 24grs. will also work with the CB's mentioned, but 5744 is better. Should also consider C.E. Harris' "universal load" of 16grs. Alliant/Hercules 2400.

2) Lyman #311467 or posssibly -466 are definitely worth trying, but somewhat hard to find. Saeco #315 should be considered too, but is a Rara Avis.

3) To improve accuracy with factory rifles consider:
a) a trigger job/trigger replacement;
b) having the rifle bedded;
c) deburring the flash hole (maybe);
d) NOT uniforming the primer pockets since there's no payoff in doing so (In a bench rifle @ 1,000 yds. maybe.)
e) NOT turning the case necks for a standard chamber (If the empty brass is so eccentric, it shouldn't be used for "record" shots anyway.)
f) orienting the CB's & loaded rounds a la Frank Marshall, Jr.'s suggestion.

A5744 and IMR4198 need to be trickled, won't throw consistent charges. I've had good luck with both. A5744 left a lot of ash? in the cases, not grains of powder but bigger pieces. I think that it's still coming out of the cases.
Most of the other suggestions are in the new thread, THE SEARCH FOR ACCURACY......."
Thanks;
joe b.