Info on 38 S&W, Please? [Archive]

OeldeWolf

01-10-2009, 11:17 AM

I have an old top break S&W pistol, in great shape, not beat to death. I would like to cast and load for it. But the only info I can find is on loads for the solid frame revolvers.

Can someone out here supply me with some loading data, BP and smokeless, and bullet weight for the top breaks? I guess I just do not have enough antique loading manuals, yet.

A recommendation or two on bullet moulds for this would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Harry O

01-10-2009, 09:03 PM

The cautions about using light loads for breaktop handguns are true. I shot many of them 30 to 40 years ago when my fathers parents/inlaws/etc started dying off. I was the "gun-nut" in the family and any cheap bedroom guns were given to me. I broke all of them eventually except for a .38 S&W 1883 double action that I still have.

If you load it too much, the latch can open and the empty case go flying out the rear. Luckily, it was over my head.

Anyway, the "Complete Guide to Handloading" by Phil Sharpe (copyright 1937) has the following suggestions:

145-146gr lead bullets
1.5gr Bullseye at 550fps -- starting load
2.1gr Bullseye at 650fps -- maximum load

3.0gr Unique at 590fps -- starting load
3.5gr Unique at 680fps -- maximum load

As far as black powder, I have always filled the case so that the bullet compressed the powder 1/16" to 1/8" when it was being seated. You absolutely MUST use BP lube if you use BP. Smokeless lube (particularly anything with Alox) will gum up the works immediately and give poor accuracy. I have never used BP in this particular case, but I have in about a half-dozen others.

OeldeWolf

01-10-2009, 11:33 PM

Thank you, Harry.

I was aware of the light load restriction, and all the damage it does to the pistols. This was the only one I found that had a very tight latch, and the gear for indexing (I will remember its name later, when it is too late) is still pristine. It appears to have been dry fired more than fired, or else was fired only with the proper loads, and cleaned immaculately.

So I want to keep the condition good, and also have fun shooting it, and bringing it back to life again.

Any advice on bullet moulds for it? I will try and look atthe catalogs, but a few pointers would be helpful.

Goatlips

01-11-2009, 01:35 AM

Oldewolf, I have a few S&W and Iver Johnsons, I only use them for side matches at Cowboy shoots (very close). :Fire: I just use my regular .38 Snakebite 158g "Big Lube" boolits atop as much BP as I can get in the case, (very little). They shoot well in the S&Ws, not so much for the Owl Grips. :twisted:

Goatlips

HeavyMetal

01-11-2009, 01:47 AM

If you can find one Lyman's 35864 ( old numbering system) was designed for the 38 S&W.

I was lucky enough to get one off of evil bay recently for 35 bucks! Single cavity and casts at .360 or so right out of the mold.

I have a real tight H&R defender, with adjustable sights, that was issued to a great uncle as a guard weapon during WWII!

It has been in a drawer most of it's life and never shot! I now have brass, dies, and a mold so will be breaking this old girl in soon.

Wish We had a good source of info on these old H&R guns. Since this one was supposed to have been made around 1940 I have always wondered if it was built to take the british 38 200 round??

Since I have no intention of turning this into a 44 mag the 146 grain boolit and 2.0 grains of bullseye will be the load for this gun!

Buckshot

01-11-2009, 02:06 AM

http://www.fototime.com/B8AC5913DE564B1/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/86C54337F979FDD/standard.jpg

Target was fired at 25 yards using the Iver Johnson. The load was 1.6grs of Red Dot in Starline brass. The slug was tumble lubed, cast of pure lead in a Lyman 4C 35863 mould (150gr WC) that drops them @ .363" and shot as cast. The velocity was a mind numbing 475 fps, and I suppose if someone got hit it'd raise quite a welt.

Possibly the .012" bbl/cyl gap had something to do with it ? :-) The pistol was never intended for target work. Yet for what it probably cost when first sold it is amazing well built. It's double and single action. The hammer, trigger, and top latch still have bright case colors, and the blued triggerguard remains bright, as if rust blued.

http://www.fototime.com/56C0BA1FC0F2D05/standard.jpg

You might have to get your nose up to the screen to really see, but the hinge knuckle is a marvel of close tolerances without being stiff. Amazing craftsmanship for such a pistol as this. Just shows that at one time workmen and the company cared about and built quality into even inexpensive things.

There's several threads on the 38 S&W on the handguns forum.

.................Buckshot

TAWILDCATT

01-11-2009, 09:58 PM

I grew up on H&R ,Ivers. an many other of like models.the breaks went for $15,I could buy some for $.50 to $1.00. I have a lemon sqeezer in 32.and an H & R in 38. and Iver in 32.I have been to H & R and IVER plants.bought parts mostly trigger springs.they charged $1.00 but would give you 2/3.they were as common as ants. nabor has a forehand and wadsworth break action,works fine.[pre 1900]
at $.35 box 50 I shot alot and never had one break.most were loaded put in drawer and left.they did not shoot like today 500 rds at once.you would have given them heart attacks.:coffee: [smilie=1:

MakeMineA10mm

01-12-2009, 12:24 AM

I have an IJ in 32 that my grandpa carried when he was a poker dealer in an illegal game in the 1930s... [smilie=1: I don't shoot it at all, because the hand (the part you couldn't think of the name) doesn't keep the cylinder locked properly (and I don't see a bolt on these, so I think the hand is supposed to keep the cylinder from rotating when fired). I'd like to get it fixed up and shoot it, but other projects are getting my $ for now...

Anyway, I'm planning on running a Group Buy for a boolit that might work for you. I know it's not very satisfying waiting 6-9 months for the mould, but it should be a winner. (I hope. :mrgreen: )

Pete D.

01-12-2009, 01:54 AM

I have a Webley Mk.IV chambered for the .38 S&W (.38 Colt new police). I cast 195 grain RN bullets from Lyman's #358430. They drop at .360. I shoot them over 3.0 grains of Unique; this effectively duplicates the Brit .380/200 load.
Though it was designed in 1877, I don't believe that the .38 S&W was ever loaded with BP.
Pete
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-3/661868/Webley.jpg

OeldeWolf

01-12-2009, 01:56 AM

I appreciate the information.

Heavy Metal, it is my understanding that the 200 grain load the British accepted, is only safe to shoot from solid frame revolvers. The 200 gr load, or indeed the commercial load my local dealer carries, would be damaging to the pistol.

MakeMineA10mm, I would be interested in the group buy, as whatever I find will likely be a 1 to 2 cavity mould. And yes, Hand is the name I was searching for.

Buckshot, I noticed the precise work on the hinge. Most of the ones at the store had loose latches, and wobbly hinges, as well as mangled hands. The owner of the shop told me it appeared to be the result of too powerful a load being used in them. The one I got is missing a fair bit of the nickel plating, and needs a little work on the trigger group. But the latch, hinge, hand, and bore, are all like new.

An older friend of mine tells me that these small revolvers were often referred to as "Muff" guns, as they were small enough that a woman could carry one in her muff. The small size and speed of reloading were indeed their attractions.

Any and all information I receive on this pistol and load are appreciated a great deal.

Pete D.

01-12-2009, 02:12 AM

Oelde:
it is my understanding that the 200 grain load the British accepted, is only safe to shoot from solid frame revolvers. The 200 gr load, or indeed the commercial load my local dealer carries, would be damaging to
That's not quite true. The pistol pictured in my earlier post fired the 200 grain load and is a top break revolver. The Brits did switch to a 174 grain jacketed bullet but that was because of Geneva Convention issues, not safety.
The .380/200 grain load might be a bit much for revolvers less robust than the Webley.
Pete

Bret4207

01-12-2009, 08:09 AM

I have a S+W Perfected model in 38 S+W. The factory stuff is okay but the Starline brass is better. My 360271"S" ( as I understand it "S" can either mean Special or Small) mould seems to cast a little small for it in WW alloy, I may have to juice it a bit to get a fatter boolit. I honestly can't remark too much about the accuracy because the sights just stink for me. If I ever remember to order one of those Merit eye glass attachments that could change.

Elmer Keith spoke highly of the accuracy of the 38 S+W in a Perfected model, winning some bets as I recall. When you think about it, with modern powders that stubby little case would be a natural for target work in the right gun.

Lee makes a 9mm Makarov mould for cheap that can be sized down to .360,361,362,363. It only 90 gr advertised weight, but better grouping may make it worthwhile.

Harry O

01-12-2009, 12:33 PM

I grew up on H&R ,Ivers. an many other of like models.the breaks went for $15,I could buy some for $.50 to $1.00.

I shot alot and never had one break.most were loaded put in drawer and left.they did not shoot like today 500 rds at once.
[smilie=1:

Just to be specific, none of the guns I had were top quality (S&W, Colt, or Webley). I believe that most were not even up to H&R or Iver Johnson standards. Some were in .32 S&W and some in .38 S&W. They were just plain cheap.

Many of them never locked the cylinder for firing. They depended on inertia and the cylinder turning hand to stop them at more or less the correct place. They were actually designed that way. Side spitting was common.

When I said all but one were broken by me, none of them exploded or stretched. It was always some small part that broke. A spring, a hand, a bolt. Something that was not available and not worth taking to a gunsmith to fix.

jonk

01-12-2009, 02:58 PM

All I shoot out of my top breaks is black powder. Yes, some of the later ones can handle light smokleless but I prefer to stick with one load.

Honestly what I do is quite simple. Fill each case about 3/4 to 7/8 full with FFFG, then seat the bullet to just slightly compress the powder.

Pete D.

01-12-2009, 06:22 PM

Some additional info about the .380/200. It was formally adopted by the British military on Nov. 6, 1930. The original round loaded a 200 grain bullet over 3.7 grains of Cordite size 1/.05 (MV= 600 fps/ 160 ft.lbs ME).

A personal note about quality. I've not owned either an H&R or Iver Johnson top break but I do know that they have a fine reputation. That being said, and probably because I own one, I've never considered the Webleys as inferior weapons. The usual reference about firing modern .38 S&W cartridges is to use them in pistols with solid frames or strong top breaks; the Webley is frequently cited as an example of a properly strong top break revolver.

Also - CBE makes a beautiful brass mold for a 142 grain LSWC designed specifically for the .38 S&W.
Pete

Buckshot

01-13-2009, 02:02 AM

................Bret4207, sights? :-) The front sight on that IJ is a weapon itself! Looking at it sideways it appears substantial but looking down the barrel at it, it sure enough disappears. I'd be surprised if it mic'd 0.010" wide. But considering the pistols intended useage and target, pointing would suffice. That front sight is just gilding the lily.

.............Buckshot

Bret4207

01-13-2009, 08:37 AM

You said a mouthful Buck. I have a 6" IJ 32 S+W Long revolver. The "sights" might be fine for a 12 year old with eyes like a hawk, but not for me. I really do have to do some work on them one day. Maybe a glued on red dot or other optical sight would work.

MakeMineA10mm

01-13-2009, 10:51 AM

What kind of diameters are you all sizing to for your 38 S&Ws?

HeavyMetal

01-13-2009, 11:00 AM

Have not shot my H&R yet but I did do the "push" threw test on a few boolits.

The best fit seems to be with .360, lite drag, being pushed through the chamber mouths.

Odd the barrel seems much tighter than that! I plan on slugging it soon and would not be surprised to find it 357 to 358 diameter!

kernal_panic

01-13-2009, 12:04 PM

Pete D.

01-14-2009, 12:48 AM

About mould recommendations: for a heavy bullet - http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showpage?saleitemid=766200&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=685
They drop from the mould at .360, no sizing required.
For a lighter bullet
CBE 7-360-142, a beautiful brass mould. http://www.theammodump.com/cbe.html
Pete
PS - there really is no BP load data since it's not a BP cartridge. The "as much fffg as you can get in the case and seat a bullet" advice is a good as you'll find.
P

Buckshot

01-14-2009, 03:46 AM

What kind of diameters are you all sizing to for your 38 S&Ws?

All mine will swallow a case holding a slug at .363" so they all basically get slugs at whatever they drop from the mould at. Lee LA does a super job, so all in all for effortless reloading (no sizing/lubing trip) in my instance the 38 S&W is it. Dump'em outta the mould, pour into a container, spritz with LLA and roll'em around. Stick them into a charged case, shoot and repeat :-)

...............Buckshot

MakeMineA10mm

01-15-2009, 03:35 PM

Well, I'm looking at .360" for the as-cast diameter on the mould we're specing. It is also to work in several other calibers, like 9mm and 38 Super, many of which have larger-bores. Still, we want it to stay at a diameter which can be sized down for the tighter-bore guns in these calibers too...

So, will .360" be workable for most 38S&W guns, or do they generally run larger?

9.3X62AL

01-15-2009, 03:56 PM

The Webley and S&W K-frame I have in 38 S&W both have .362"-.363" throats, so the boolits get sized at that diameter. Lyman has a .363" H&I die as a regular-stock item currently.

The little Police Positive I bought yesterday needs a slugging or pin gauging of its throats. I'm hoping it runs ~.360" or so, that way I can fatten Lyman #358477s to fit the critter. I imagine the piece is regulated for 145 grain boolits at 700 FPS or so, it would be nice to not need another mould to service the revolver.