Casting cellulose sabots.....

[bcp477]

I have decided to research a new project - and find out if it is feasible (and practical). All I shoot now are paper-patched (cast) bullets, with which I am very satisfied. I wonder, however, if there might be a way to reduce the time and effort required to patch and prepare batches of bullets. This is not an issue with small lots....say up to 100 at a time. However, I try to buy my bullets in lots of 250 to 500 at a time (reduced cost). So, I began thinking about sabots - which is really what a "paper patch" actually IS. Of course, I immediately thought of the plastic sabots, available for various types of projectiles.... from those used for shotgun slugs in rifled barrels...to the type used in rifles, allowing an undersized bullet to be used. I have quickly determined that no suitable plastic sabots are available for 8mm rifles (which is what I need). Plastic molding/ extruding technology is not particularly difficult...and is well understood....though it is not really practical for some sort of home project. Certainly a mold could be designed and made, but dealing with the other related issues (a plastic injection molding machine) make this an concept unworkable for home use.

So, my thoughts have turned to the very material used for paper-patching - paper (or cellulose - based materials). I am thinking now in terms of designing a suitable "mold" or die, into which a suitable, pre-sized bullet would be inserted....then a concoction somewhat like paper- mache, though in the form of a paste, would be inserted.....then a standard bench press could be used to press the material into a ready-made sabot around the lower portion of the bullet. After the molding, the complete saboted projectile would be ejected (either simply by pushing it backwards, out of the die, or by use of a split die) - then set aside to dry. If the sabot needed to be split into two or more "leaves" (like the type used in anti-tank penetrator rounds), in order to be sure of it falling away from the bullet shortly after it leaves the barrel, this could be done afterwards, or even during the molding process, if the die is so designed. The material used for the sabots would need to be engineered to prevent it adhering to to the bullet - this could even be done with some sort of mold release, applied to the bullet.

Anyway, right now, it is a thinking exercise - I am working out the details in my mind. I will begin experimenting on paper soon. After that, if I still think that the idea is viable - I will attempt to produce a workable design - and have it made. It even occurs to me that I might be able to modify a suitable bullet sizing die, of the proper size, to use as the "mold". The bullets would be pre-sized to .314" or perhaps a bit smaller, before being inserted in the die. The die in question would need to be something like .323" - .324" in internal diameter (my patched bullets now come out at about .3236", which works perfectly in my rifle). The bullet nose would fit into a "cup" in the top (or bottom) of the die, shaped to hold it in the correct orientation (a plug from a bullet seating die might work for this)....and the resulting cavity around the lower portion of the bullet would be the space into which the sabot would be pressed or molded - essentially the same thickness as a double-wrapped patch.

It has even occurred to me that a wooden board, or metal or plastic block could be fashioned into a multiple- cavity mold - by machining multiple holes into it, shaped and sized to allow for the pre-sized bullet (and the sabot around it) - then raw sabot paste would then simply be pressed into each cavity. Then, another board or plate would be clamped to the first, to keep pressure on the sabot material as it sets. This might be the better solution, allowing for many sabots to be molded at once. The only daunting issue with this idea would be the manufacture of the multiple mold - but this would be PERFECT for a shop with a CNC machine. Potentially, 50 or even 100 sabots could be molded at one time, with such a setup.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention this idea because I find it exciting - and I wonder who else here might. I am not thinking in terms really of setting up production or selling anything - nor of trying to patent the idea. I just wonder if anyone else thinks this a worthy project - or a folly.

[docone31]

I had tossed up that concept for maybe 30yrs.
I do not want to fire .223s in nylon jackets out of my .30s. I want heavy full tilt castings going down the barrel.
It sounds like a good idea to me, however, I think rolling paper might be the simplest of all.
When I wrap, I also wrap maybe 200 at a time. I set it up in stages. Cast, size, even break the press, cut strips, cut to length, wet em, wap em, let them sit, size em.
I would love to find something that works as well that is simpler that I can make myself.
I have my thoughts on its success though. I am not sure paper is just plain the best.
I cannot believe the accuracy from marginal rifles I have gotten.

[leadeye]

Help me out a little bit with what happens to the paper when you fire it. I worked for years with nitrocellulose solutions at various solids and viscosities. When it dries it makes an early form of plastic that used to be used in early films called celluloid. Maybe something like this would work for you guys.

[bcp477]

The paper sabot (or "patch", as it is called) is cut by the rifling, as the bullet moves up the barrel....then opens up and falls away from the bullet, shortly after the bullet exits the barrel. The sabot MUST fall away without disturbing the flight of the bullet, or accuracy will not be good. The purpose of the patch or sabot is literally to protect the unjacketed bullet, allowing such cast bullets to be fired at near jacketed-bullet velocities. The side benefit is that the sabot (or patch) also prevents lead deposition in the barrel, as the bullet itself never actually touches the rifling.

[rhead]

I can see properly cut cross patches placed over a tapered and correctly sized polished hole. Using a bullet sized mandrel the patches could be pressed through the hole. The cross patches would form up into a quad leafed cup around the mandrel. After drying it could be pressed on out the bottom. Full length paper gas checks.
Good luck. I suspect that problems with mass production are one of the reasons that metal jackets won the production wars.

Use cellulose acetate instead of nitrocellulose (not as flamable) with cellulose fibers added as a binder, with multiple dips like candle making. Would it be tough enough?

[Refraktorius]

The paper sabot was used rather succesfully in the Dreyse Needle Gun... at least it was a contributing factor to Denmark loosing approx 20% of her total area to the Prussians in 1864.

http://www.schmids-zuendnadelseite.de/dreyse_sabots_bullets.jpg
Picture from http://www.schmids-zuendnadelseite.de/histor_papierpatr.html

[yeahbub]

I had been wondering if a suitable slurry of cellulose fibers could be made in an appropriate viscosity for dipping a boolit in to provide a predictable finished thickness. It should be doable. A release agent could be as simple as a layer of carnauba wax which I use on the steel when I glass-bed a rifle. Micro-thin, but definitely there. I have a suspicion that, since wrapped patching is ripped from the boolit at exit from the bore, a thinner, probably more delicate, patch will come right off.

[shotman]

well here is something for you to try. take some news paper and water and some Downey and put in blender. I would soak the paper overnight in some soda water. Make a thick slurry and dip boolit in it may take 2 or 3 times. May work

[yeahbub]

Shotman, what's the Downey for and what form is it in? What does the soda water do as opposed to tap water?

[bcp477]

Well, here is a bit of an update. I am progressing, slowly, with this project. I have done some experimentation with mixtures for the sabot material....and this seems to be the easy part. So far, I am leaning toward a wheat-paste/ finely shredded rag paper mixture (processed into a moderately thick paste) . I have tried molding this stuff around a test specimen....and it works well. For testing, I have chosen a metal rod to serve as the bullet facsimile. For a test mold, I created a simple one by drilling a straight-walled cavity, sized about 8-thousandths larger than the rod, in a split block of aluminum. I made a simple fixture to secure the mold and keep the rod centred. All of this has worked just fine - but, of course, I have yet to create any actual saboted bullets.

My next step will be to create an actual mold for my bullets, so I am considering ways to do this. To keep costs down and simplify things (in case this is all a big failure), I will create a single cavity mold for now. I will start with bullets I already have on hand - probably paper-patched to get the final dimension I need for the inside dia. and shape of the mold cavity. I just have to work out the best method for creating the mold cavity - and transferring this to a split metal block. Of course, what I need is to create a negative from a positive, i.e. a patched bullet. I am considering a plaster/ sand mold, or a variation of the "lost-wax" method, etc. I did some bronze casting years ago, so I am familiar with the basic process involved. It would work that I can make a plaster/ sand mold, by pouring the plaster mixture around a patched bullet. Casting wax can be used to provide a small "sprue", that is, a small opening from the outer portion of the mold, to the positive (the bullet), which would also serve to hold the bullet in place. The patch on the bullet would be coated with lacquer or something similar, to waterproof it (and prevent inundation by the water in the plaster mixture). Then, the mold would be fired in a kiln, inverted so that the melted lead (from the bullet) can run out. The paper patch and wax sprue would burn away. What would be left is a nice smooth mold of the shape and dimensions needed. A final mold could be then made from a split aluminum block, via a CNC machine (first using the profiling feature to digitize the inner contours of the plaster/ sand mold). If it all works out, it would then be possible to make any size mold I desire, with any number of cavities. However, as you can see, the complexity of this project is rapidly escalating - and the costs could well do the same. It may not, in the end, be worth the trouble and expense. So, I am considering other alternatives for making a mold.

I should add that I am also considering using an ordinary cast bullet mold as the basis for this project. This might well be the way to go, except that the cavity of the mold might need to be modified. Or, it might work out that the mold could be used as is - and the sabot thus created around the bullet could be trimmed afterwards. The bullet used would be something like I use now - about .314" in diameter....with the final sabot outside dia. to be between .323" and .324". I could use a .324" mold and then run the completed, saboted bullet through a .323" sizing die, if need be. I would need to work out a way to secure the (undersized) bullet in the mold, to keep it centred....but this would probably not be too difficult. We shall see.

I'll do another update later, as things develop.

[docone31]

Go for it!
Does indeed sound a little complex but R&D is complex no matter what.
Were it me, I might try a four leaf paper form, wetted, with a rod pressing it into a form to let dry. The leafs would dry loose so the case held it to the casting like the plastic Sabots do the .224 bullet to the .30cal case. The Accelerator variant.
Again, here size is critical. Length especially.
I do see where you are going with your modified lost wax method. Might just be easier to chuck some Matt Wax in a lathe, or chuck of some sort and turn it down. The green wax is harder and turns cleaner.
Actually, in rereading, canning wax can also be used. Your dimensions should be ok and the wax should be stable enough. I use that stuff sometimes in my larger rings. Just melt it into a cylinder somehow, either paper, or plastic, and turn it down. a slow speed drill will work if you can control the vibrations. A razor blade can be used to be a cutter. Make simple rest of wood to act as a rest/guide.
Now, here is a trick if you do not have a vaccum set up to debubbilize.
While your investment is poured in, before it glosses, smack the side of the flask with the solid end of a butter knife. I use my case vibrators to shake off the bubbles. Either way does an acceptable job. Not good for filligree, but for larger areas, works ok. Then you can fire out your lead, consumeables, etc. The paper will leave a residue so, leave the kiln on for 24hrs under 500*. This breaks down the carbon fibers. Then turn it up to 700* for 5hrs, then 1400* for 2hrs, then drop to casting temperature. If it is a brass, 500*, aluminum, 400*. From there, cast, either centrifugal, or vaccum, or steam. Steam is easier. Cut the sprue funnel in the flask before firing, then after firing in the kiln, invert the flask, pour the melt into the funnel, keeping the heat on it. For steam casting, I use an empty tuna can attached to a wood dowel, I put three layers of paper towel in the can, and wet. This I jam on the flask while the melt is liquid. The immediate steam forces the molten metal into the mold and begins the freezing. I immediatly immerse the hot flask into cold water and swish around.
For a quick flask, I use a soup can. I cut both ends off. On one end, I put aluminum foil. This contains the investment. I put the sprue button in the foil so when I remove it I know where the sprue is. I use a large spoon to turn out a cavity that attaches to the model sprue.
The other method, is to attach links to the can. Attach two chains to the flask, the can with investment in it. Attach the chains to a dowel. Pour the molten metal into the flask, and swing over your head untill the metal freezes. Then immerse in cold water.
Seems scary, but it works quite well if you do not have centrifugal or vaccum casting equipment.
It is old school. Worked for many, for many years.
Have a fire extinguisher ready. I started a few fires doing it that way. Takes a learning curve.
No fires with steam.
Depending on what metal, the shrinkage can be adjusted with the dimensions of the model. There is shrinkage.
Sounds like you are on a good track.
I have no idea why I am even considering going beyond paper patching. It works so well for me.
Maybe I am getting lazy and still want results.

[windrider919]

I have tried something similar using paper mache formula. First discovery, it has to be pumped to fill the tiny space, it will not flow in unless it is too thin to work. I used a new grease gun. Second, the water must be removed or the cellulose paste will sour and grow mold or bacteria. I tried heating the mould to 'cure' the paste and drive out the excess water. It sort of worked but the release agent I used would always fail in some spot or the other , resulting in a damaged sabot. I could have proceeded with further development but decided it was too much work and that I would rather be working on an easier problem.

[yeahbub]

That mold idea would be great for building a boolit up to work in the next larger caliber, say, a .430 in a .451 barrel. I was wondering if a mold for the sabot of conventional patching thicknesses would even be necessary. Paper is made by dipping a "mold" (a sheet-of-paper sized window screen framed with wood) being submerged in the paper slurry and bringing it up to the surface with an even layer of the slurry on it and allowing it to dry - the thickness of the paper being controlled by how thick the slurry is. I was thinking that dipping the boolit heel first to half way up the ogive in a slurry thick enough to leave a sufficient coating and allowing it to dry would do the job. Making paper around the outside of the boolit. Sort of like dipping it in thick paint. Technique will probably have a lot to do with it. Ensuring that the patch would be cleanly and reliably removed by escaping powder gasses would be necessary as well, or accuracy would be out the window. Just thinking out loud. . . . . . .

[Maximilian225]

This is way outta my league, but could you use something similar to a swaging die with the slurry in the die and a machined bullet copy steel mandrel pressed into the slurry with some type of bleed hole to achieve the proper pressure and even fill?

[Digital Dan]

Without intention of dissuading such adventures and alternative methods, I will point out that production machinery technology capable of providing mass production of conventional paper wrapped bullets has been around for some time and it is not high tech. It would be relatively expensive in the start up phase though. As always, the question is will demand make it economically viable?

[windrider919]

I only exp a little with paper mache but I also tried plastic tool dip to produce a coated bullet like those nylon covered bullets sold years ago for range lead safety. I could not keep the coating thickness even but they did shoot, just not very
accuratly.

I would like to have a VLD boat tailed cast PP bullet but the problem there is the boat tail appears to get damaged in firing and would need to be protected by a wad / cup / sabot that dropped off after exiting the muzzle. Perhaps your molded paper sabot would be the trick.

[TRX]

I will point out that production machinery technology capable of providing mass production of conventional paper wrapped bullets has been around for some time and it is not high tech.

Can you provide a link to one of those?

[303Guy]

I can see properly cut cross patches placed over a tapered and correctly sized polished hole.Like this, perhaps?
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg

This is how I load my hornet. I use a molten waxy-lube to 'glue' the bullet in place. It works for my 303 Brit too, but the bullets are just not secure enough to use the magazine.

Last night, I tried loading a cast bullet like that but the 'cup' stayed behind in the case mouth! That was with printer paper. Maybe a thicker and stronger paper would stay on the bullet. (That would need a smaller bullet which I don't have right now).

[smaj100]

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I was wondering....

Could you use a mold for the caliber you are trying to load for and place the smaller bullet squarely in the mold and pour the sabot/slurry mix around the bullet and allow it to dry and form to the exact size of the caliber in question? I was just noticing you mentioning all the different methods of forming the blocks and machining. I though if you used a mold already made especially if you went with a six cavity mold that would allow for some rapid forming sabots. I know you can custom order molds from Lee in the aluminum blocks. If I were going to try this I would consider ordering a mold of the exact size I was loading for, ie 309 for my 308 with a smooth cavity from top to bottom no lube rings or micro grooves, and then figure out how to position the smaller bullets in the mold and pour the slurry mix in and wait.

:castmine:

[303Guy]

... pour the sabot/slurry mix around the bullet and allow it to dry and form to the exact size of the caliber in question?II would imagine that would only work under pressure to get the slurry to flow.

I have made paper sleaves which I then soaked in water to expand, then slipped the prime casting in. That worked quite well with stronger tracing paper. So why not a paper sabot made like a plastic sabot would be. I had a similar idea a few years ago.

Then there is another idea which would be to make suitable sleaves, cut to length, which would shrink on dampening. Just a thought. In fact .... mmmm.

[windrider919]

I have been interested in the idea because I wanted to design a rebated boattail cast bullet. Then I found that several others had tried it and could not get very good accuracy because the boattail is damaged when firing. It is squashed or bumped up and usually is not concentric anymore. But a sabot just for the boattail, falling off when leaving the barrel might allow shooting a cast rebated BT.

[windrider919]

Here is a link to one of the real experts in PP shooting and one of his articles dealing with PP and BT

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB_files/Page1187.htm

[303Guy]

And there we have it!:Fire:Ha!:drinks:

Thanks for that link, windrider919.

I only need a small chamfer like one finds on 'semi-boat tails'.

If one is going to use a slurry, then why not place the slurry on the base of the boolit and push it tail first through a die? Once the sabot has dried the boolit can be patched as normal. How does one make paper slurry?

[Molly]

Neat thought, and I've long suspected that dipping a cast bullet in paint a few times might be the ultimate patch for home use. But there's another trick you might consider too: Years ago, I used to buy pill capsules from a druggest, and fill them with shot for shot loads in my .357 and .44 pistols. Worked pretty good too. I suspect you could drop a cast bu7llet in one, and hit it with a heat gun to shrink it to fit. I've always wanted to try heat shrink tubing for a jacket too, but never got around to it. Have fun.

[303Guy]

I've long suspected that dipping a cast bullet in paint a few times might be the ultimate patch for home use.I have this saying; "The Americans put a man on the moon fifty years ago (Holy crap! Am I that old already!) and we can't find a way to do this one?" A paper or something pulp/paint/coating that we can dip our boolits into? Someone must have an idea how that could be done! Making it heat or moisture shrinkable or just drying shrinkable? There has to be a simple way!:Fire:

Ummmm ..... I'm still on my feet. A little bit of joint pain and a need to carry my rifle in an unconventional way but.... still on my feet! What the heck - my Dad's only 90 and I'm the youngest of four!:mrgreen:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-496F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-485F.jpg

[30calcaster]

Hi guys, I found this thread googling this subject. I have an idea which I wonder whether it has been tried. Could a slurry be made with the appropriate fibre length and thickness to put through a paint gun (the little ones used for making pictures). This gets sprayed on after a release agent has been sprayed on first. It is then let to dry and when the right amount of water/varsol?(to speed up drying time) remains to keep it barely able to form, it is run through a sizer die.

I'm thinking that with the price of copper going through the roof in the not so distant future, that an alternative will needed to be found for long range shooting.

[303Guy]

30calcaster

Thinking on this idea briefly, it sounds like quite an intricate operation. This things are small and fragile. There probably is a way to make it work.

The bot tail rebated cast boolit has been done successfully by using a cast wax sabot to support the boolit tail. Perhaps a system of dipping the boolit tail into the slurry and setting it in a 'die' to dry? The 'die' would be a tray with lots of such 'dies' or molds really. It would need to be made from a porous material I should think.

Something to consider - the BC of a rebated boat tail is not going to be any better than a heavier boolit with a flat base which could be paper patched for long range. This should theoretically, give a higher muzzle velocity than a GC boolit of similar BC. Just a thought.

Another idea would be to use a thickish paper punched into small discs which then gets swaged into a gas check in a punch/die set. An appropriate water content would be required which is easily controllable. This likely won't suite your boat tail but some papers can be remolded quite a bit when wet and punch/die sets can exert quite a swaging force and can be held very accurately in alignment.

Oh, something about wet swaging a sabot or cup onto a boat tail - no rebate step would be required to define the start of the sabot. I would also look at losing any lube grooves and using a surface lube only so as to improve the BC.

[DIRT Farmer]

303 guy perhaps it should be another thread, but I was wondering about the cross patch. I know the Black Powder bench rest shooters use this system. Have you had sucess with this?

[RMulhern]

Shoot 'grooveless bullets' and make it simple!! You'll need a stainless barrel however; chromemoly won't work!!

[30calcaster]

Perhaps a system of dipping the boolit tail into the slurry and setting it in a 'die' to dry

I was thinking about that and I can't think of a way of setting the bullets in accurately and consistantly. If the bullet is not set in straight and accurately then the center of rotation will not be in the middle, and that can't be good for accuracy. This is why I proposed the air brush method. I was thinking, that if the boolit is put on a drill at a preset speed and the spray pattern is set at the optimal setting, then consitancy exists. The idea is something I'll stll have to think about.


rebated boat tail is not going to be any better than a heavier boolit with a flat base which could be paper patched for long range.

I don't totally agree with that. When your ojive is greater than approx 14 time the diameter of the bullet, a secondary shockwave is created which is a serious detriment to the BC, so you can only make you boolit pointy to a limited extent. After that, you are only throwing in extra weight . A boattail will increase the BC approx 15%

[seppos]

Like this, perhaps?
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg

This is how I load my hornet. I use a molten waxy-lube to 'glue' the bullet in place. It works for my 303 Brit too, but the bullets are just not secure enough to use the magazine.

Last night, I tried loading a cast bullet like that but the 'cup' stayed behind in the case mouth! That was with printer paper. Maybe a thicker and stronger paper would stay on the bullet. (That would need a smaller bullet which I don't have right now).

I was thinking..
How about the wax paper for baking..
I checked from the kitchen, but have run out of it..
Maybe somebody who have some could test it for us..

S

[RMulhern]

While you guys are 'fartin around' trying to reinvent the wheel....I'll just keep on shooting groups like this doing it the way the Ole Timers did in the 1870s! When ya get ya new 'whizzbang' method worked out so it'll shoot groups akin to this from 1000 yards.....let me know!

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6753/5090group.th.jpg (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/5090group.jpg/)

[303Guy]

While you guys are 'fartin around' trying to reinvent the wheel...Aah.... yes.... but you see.... we don't have 'anytime' access to a range!:???: (Nor can we stack wads behind our boolits in our bottlenecked cases. :( )

That trick with hornet with j-words was to make it shoot with a rust damaged bore and oversize chamber. It worked. Paper patching for the hornet is out of the question - too damn small for my fingers!

[Lead pot]

303 guy.

I think it's time you got a real rifle that will shoot a PP bullet with out all this hocus pocus like the martini rifle or a Sharps. :grin:
The bottle neck in those will have enough room for all the wads it needs:drinks:

[RMulhern]

Aah.... yes.... but you see.... we don't have 'anytime' access to a range!:???: (Nor can we stack wads behind our boolits in our bottlenecked cases. :( )

That trick with hornet with j-words was to make it shoot with a rust damaged bore and oversize chamber. It worked. Paper patching for the hornet is out of the question - too damn small for my fingers!

303Guy

Frankly....I'd get about as much joy out of working with a 'rust bored rifle' as I would in being Obammys' right hand man!! :veryconfu:violin::confused:

[dave roelle]

really interesting discussion i'm still studying the paper patch systems before i dive in been wondering if anyone has tried something like "tyvec" in the more demanding situations

[Kenny Wasserburger]

At the Velocitys we push these lead slugs in BPCR's the Boatail is of no use.

Might just learn to wrap em like the old dead guys did and learn to read wind-Mirage and Maybe even learn to shoot. WOW what a boring Concept.:shock::veryconfu:veryconfu

Breathing, Hold-Grip and shouldering the Rifle has so much to do with these old rifles and the sights, If folks put effort into that alone, would not have time to mess around with ideas that are a waste of time.:razz::shock::shock::razz::razz:

The Lunger
KW

[RMulhern]

At the Velocitys we push these lead slugs in BPCR's the Boatail is of no use.

Might just learn to wrap em like the old dead guys did and learn to read wind-Mirage and Maybe even learn to shoot. WOW what a boring Concept.:shock::veryconfu:veryconfu

Breathing, Hold-Grip and shouldering the Rifle has so much to do with these old rifles and the sights, If folks put effort into that alone, would not have time to mess around with ideas that are a waste of time.:razz::shock::shock::razz::razz:

The Lunger
KW

Kenny

You HAVE A WAY with words! You're a man...after my own heart!!:drinks:

GOOD LUCK AT RATON!!:drinks:

[30calcaster]

Personally I think that it's good to be fartin around, experimenting ect. Our fore fathers did the same and that gave us guns to shoot and cast boolits to feed the guns. :cbpour: If they had not farted around, we would be back to bows'n arrows, spear throwing, rockchuckin ( I'm not talkin about using the RCBS Rockchucker ) and clubbing around. I'm glad our fore fathers invented this stuff and I hope to follow in their footsteps. :redneck:

[30calcaster]

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1947/13136149/23375333/389949555.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1947/13136149/23375333/389949595.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1947/13136149/23375333/389949595.jpg

[30calcaster]

I decided that creating a paperpatch and gascheck as one unit would not work. My biggest concern was that the unit would not seperate from the boolit in a consistant manner, so I came up with this method of developing a paper gascheck. This would allow a two stage process, hopefull which will work. The paperpatch method is tried and tested and is known to work. Now a gas check which will protect the boattail is necessary.

Where this idea came from was when I was walking past my loading bench. A Lee bullet sizer die sat on top of the press. I looked at it and what appears to be a lightbulb moment occured. The Lee die was the right diameter for the job because no difficult modifications were necessary for this to work.

A stop was placed in the die so that a wet paper cookie could be formed inside it. This stop is a spring returned plunger so that the finished product could be expelled from the die. The base of the paperpatched boattail gascheck is formed at the top of the die for strength of the gascheck during the expulsion from the die.

The shape of the boattail is cut and polished onto the ram's plunger which was part of Lee's die set. The shaper being on the ram's plunger also benefits from being easy to remove (due to it's shape) before the plunger in the die is depressed to expell the finished product.

[Lead pot]

:lol::lol:This site is the best thing that came along since the Amos N Andy show quit on the old Crosley Radio :lol:

[303Guy]

Might just learn to wrap em like the old dead guys did and learn to read wind-Mirage and Maybe even learn to shoot.No arguments there! Firing the gun is not my problem - I was once considered a good shot although I have now forgotten how to aim with a scope allowing for boolit rise and fall within the 'point-blank' range of the gun.:( It's wind and mirrage that's got me stumped and I now live in a windy place. Trouble is, work is keeping me out of the field.:-? So in the meantime, I keep myself amused by trying to find the optimum patched boolit for the guns I've got. I'm learning stuff from you accomplished folks in the process! I'm learning about how different alloys behave in different mediums and under different launch conditions. It's quite challenging!


Frankly....I'd get about as much joy out of working with a 'rust bored rifle' as I would in being Obammys' right hand man!!Yup. I'm probably the only person in the world trying to make an old waterpipe shoot! It's about the challenge and the gun itself. If it works out as a field piece, it's gonna get a new barrel - well, a good barrel, anyway. One day!:roll:

[RMulhern]

:lol::lol:This site is the best thing that came along since the Amos N Andy show quit on the old Crosley Radio :lol:

Lead Pot

Most of these guys are probably TOO YOUNG to know who Amos N Andy were!!:roll:[smilie=1:

[Lead pot]

303 Guy.

All joking aside, a short necked cartridge case like the .303 has it's tough to make a PP bullet work at it's best ability for the simple reason a lot of the bullet is below the case neck well into the larger diameter shoulder and a lot of damage is caused to the patch and bullet base when the powder ignites. I have seen the damage from the undamaged recovered bullets I studied and seen on the paper at various distances.
Unless you alter the throat so it will except a bullet seated totally in the case neck you will never see the full potential of what that PP bullet is capable of.
Kurt

[Lead pot]

Rick.

Most likely not. I used to sit there and laugh at there carrying on and with ol Red. :lol:

Well it's been a few days now since you did the cutting[smilie=2: how is working??

Kurt

[montana_charlie]

Well it's been a few days now since you did the cutting[smilie=2: how is working??
Whoa! Hold up, Kurt.
You aren't trying to trick Rick into hijacking this 'cellulose' thread, are you?

CM

[Lead pot]

I never gave it a thought Charlie, I guess I should have asked how that beast is shooting with those cellulose dingies now since you gave it that ream job.
For give me PSE!!

Kurt

[DIRT Farmer]

Nah 303 guy, I'm working on one too. I know that the chance of getting groups that don't resemble patterns is not good but the challange is making an old war horse run with some pride.
Lead pot, the problem in my old two grove 303 is the throat is worn out so far that a PP package has to sit so far out in the barrel.
And I still am waiting on the sizer die for the Gibbs M/L. Those 540 grn PP are still waiting to fly through the mirage and wind. The last time I shot out to 600 the bulit flew faster and was a lot smaller. I have no clue about 1000 and 1200 yds, but a lot of folks have volenteered to help. Maybe should have stayed with shotguns.

[Lead pot]

:lol: D-F

:smile: Naw wont help[smilie=l: I dug my 870 trap gun out after a 18 year rest and couldn't break a 16 with it last week [smilie=f:

[RMulhern]

Rick.

Most likely not. I used to sit there and laugh at there carrying on and with ol Red. :lol:

Well it's been a few days now since you did the cutting[smilie=2: how is working??

Kurt

Kurt

Haven't had a chance to try it out yet! Been working and dealing with visitors!

Hopefully....soon!!

[smilie=p::shock:

[DIRT Farmer]

Lead pot, I don't do any better after a few week layoff. The good part with a shotgun in public is you might miss but at least they cant see how bad.

[SharpsShooter]

RMulhern,

I'm with you guys. Hell,I have 10 thumbs and can wrap 80 an hour, that's plenty fast.

And it works.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/PP485grTomBallardMould2.jpg


SS

[303Guy]

Lead pot, I do what I have to to ensure the boolit base does not seat past the neck/shoulder junction. This is made easy in some guns that have cordite enlarged throats. My rust pipe bore is real big in the throat. My two-groove, although rust damaged, is still on spec and has a taper throat with a half degree per side leade - the leade is the throat. My mint bore requires a two-diameter tapered boolit for optimum fit. Yep - Lee Enfields can be challenging to patch for.

[Lead pot]

The eroded throat should really help you than. I never had a Lee but I had some rifles like the 7-62 Ruskie's with bad bores that came out pretty good patching a pure lead bullets and making a few passes down the bore with a loose patch covered with 300 grid clover lapping compound than covering a few patched bullets with the past and fire lapping the bore.
They cleaned up quite well and made fine shooters.

[semtav]

Lead Pot

Most of these guys are probably TOO YOUNG to know who Amos N Andy were!!:roll:[smilie=1:

Well I'm not anywhere as old as you two geezers, but I've found during the busy season when i can't get to sleep, cause there are too many things on my mind, I crank up the old time radio shows on my (computer) and never make it thru one show before I'm sound asleep. sometimes If I wake up an hour early, I'll turn it back on and listen to the half I missed the night before.

Used to listen to them on KFAB out of Omaha, but they quite broadcasting them.

as for the experimenting, I hope they keep at it, thats what shooting is all about.