45-70 bullets

[phc45-70]

As I am fairly new at casting, I have a couple of questions. In casting for a 45-70 with a rcbs 45-405 mold using just wheel weights and pushing them with imr 3031 how fast can they be pushed without needing gas checks or adding a bit of tin to them? Also my Hornady gas checks won't crimp onto the base of the boolits when run through a sizing die that measures as small as .457. I am changing to a sizing die that measures .459 so how do you make the gas checks stay on the boolit.
Also, should I use tin or antimony for hardening or does it matter?

[Lead melter]

That mold is desigened for attachment of a gas check. Now since you want to try to shoot without one, there are a couple of ways to look at the issue.

Generally speaking, about 1400-1500 fps is as fast as a plain base projectile is run without getting into barrel leading problems as well as possible stabilization issues. Your WW alloy should be OK at this threshold without adding any extra, but I would water drop (dropping the boolit directly from the mold into a container of water) the boolit to harden it a little.

If adding a gas check, even alloy as soft as pure lead can be run up to about 1300-1400 fps without too many issues arising. Those gas checks are wonderful things.

Blasting your boolit out without a gas check will probably run into stabilization problems. Some folks can get away with it, but as for me, it's an excersise in futility.

I had the same problem with the same mold and gas checks. Result was the same...loose or detached gas checks. The situation was resolved by buying a Lee .457" push-through die and opening it up to .459" (Do a search on opening a sizer die and simply follow the instructions.) I know it doesn't sound right, but the bigger Lee die crimped on the check better than the smaller Lyman. You also can size base first in a Lee and then nose first if needed.

Tin will harden the mix somewhat, but is most often used as an agent to get good boolit fillout. The antimony is another issue. If you are trying to alloy pure antimony with your WW, you might want to forget it...too much heat and too many poison vapors. If you alloy linotype, monotype, or foundry type, then that is no problem. It will all melt together. A little bit goes a long way. I'm happy with a 5 parts pure lead to 2 parts linotype mix for most applications. Some like it harder or softer. Your WW are already fairly hard and will not require a huge amount of lino to harden them. Old fashioned trial and error.

Hope this helps and wlcome to the madhouse!!!

[phc45-70]

I don't intend to try to push them over about 1400 fps. Ken Waters recommends a 38.5 gr load of inr 3031 so I will try that and see how the gun likes it. The gun is a Marlin 1895 cowboy and I will use it for hunting mostley. Just hope it will shoot a load in that range accurately and the WW will expand somewhat on impact with a whitetail.

[phc45-70]

Do I even need a gas check at that slow a vel. and how well should a crimped gas check hold to the boolit? Mine come right off if pulled on lightly.

[Jeffery8mm]

My lee 405 plain base 45-70 boolits dont expand much at all. Although most of the shots are complete through and through, I did recover one that passed the whole length of a doe and lodged in the hindquarter. NO expansion but a very dead deer!!!! Both deer I have shot with this load went about 30 inches, straight down!! Mine are straight water dropped WW. at around 1350FPS with 43gr of 4064 as thge propellant.
Jeff

[Larry Gibson]

If you have a Lee Factory Crimp die (always nice to have) you can simply insert the GC (already on the bullet from the Lyman sizer) into the top where the collet comes together. Raising the ram of the press closes the collet and crimps the GC onto the bullet. Adjusting the die in or out will give just the right amount of crimp. Works for me anyway.

Larry Gibson

[Lead melter]

If you have a Lee Factory Crimp die (always nice to have) you can simply insert the GC (already on the bullet from the Lyman sizer) into the top where the collet comes together. Raising the ram of the press closes the collet and crimps the GC onto the bullet. Adjusting the die in or out will give just the right amount of crimp. Works for me anyway.

Larry Gibson


Great thinking, Larry. I'll have to give that a try.

[superior]

Dont worry about expansion too much. A whitetail hit with a 45-70 is like a man being hit with a 105 howitzer. Small boolits may or may not expand but big boolits never shrink.

[44man]

That mold is desigened for attachment of a gas check. Now since you want to try to shoot without one, there are a couple of ways to look at the issue.

Generally speaking, about 1400-1500 fps is as fast as a plain base projectile is run without getting into barrel leading problems as well as possible stabilization issues. Your WW alloy should be OK at this threshold without adding any extra, but I would water drop (dropping the boolit directly from the mold into a container of water) the boolit to harden it a little.

If adding a gas check, even alloy as soft as pure lead can be run up to about 1300-1400 fps without too many issues arising. Those gas checks are wonderful things.

Blasting your boolit out without a gas check will probably run into stabilization problems. Some folks can get away with it, but as for me, it's an excersise in futility.

I had the same problem with the same mold and gas checks. Result was the same...loose or detached gas checks. The situation was resolved by buying a Lee .457" push-through die and opening it up to .459" (Do a search on opening a sizer die and simply follow the instructions.) I know it doesn't sound right, but the bigger Lee die crimped on the check better than the smaller Lyman. You also can size base first in a Lee and then nose first if needed.

Tin will harden the mix somewhat, but is most often used as an agent to get good boolit fillout. The antimony is another issue. If you are trying to alloy pure antimony with your WW, you might want to forget it...too much heat and too many poison vapors. If you alloy linotype, monotype, or foundry type, then that is no problem. It will all melt together. A little bit goes a long way. I'm happy with a 5 parts pure lead to 2 parts linotype mix for most applications. Some like it harder or softer. Your WW are already fairly hard and will not require a huge amount of lino to harden them. Old fashioned trial and error.

Hope this helps and wlcome to the madhouse!!!
Antimony melts in very easily at 600* with the proper flux. I get my stuff from Bill Ferguson.
PHC, this is a common problem, having loose checks because the check portion of the mold is too small. I lap that portion until I get a tight fit.
Now I have to confess that the very worst gun I have for hunting deer is my 45-70 BFR revolver, even with the 378 gr WFN hard cast. Deer go 3X farther and I lost one with a perfect hit last year.
The reason is my accuracy point is over 1600 fps. I am convinced the boolit is pushing a pressure wave ahead of it and moves tissue out of the way so the boolit can't work on it. A double lung shot deer will still have lungs when I open it.
I NEED to get some nose expansion for next season to slow the boolit inside the deer.
Now all of you that are under 1400 fps are doing exactly the right thing and that drops deer fast. I do not have a problem with the .44, .45 or .475, from 1160 to 1350 fps, the deer is mush inside yet I have little meat damage.
So be aware that velocity can work against you unless you get the nose to expand, at least a little. I am going to make soft nose, hard base boolits for the faster gun. Hard boolits work better when SLOWER.
I have changed my position on this after doing necropsies on the last 5 deer shot with this revolver. They look like a sharp stick was poked through them. There was almost no blood trail on a few because internal disruption was low. Some didn't splash a lot of blood out until they were quite a distance from where hit.

[MikeP]

44man, regarding the velocity vs killing speed, could the problem be this: A faster hardcast is more fully stabilized when and after it hits hide, meat and bone than a slower bullet.

Thus, the faster (stabilized) bullet pencils through, but the slower (less stabilized) bullet wobbles to some degree.

If this is happening, the slower bullet ironically could result in faster kills, unless, of course, the nose of a faster bullet upsets. Your soft-nose approach should work.

A buck I shot a couple of years ago with a .45 caliber 325-grain hardcast with a muzzle velocity of about 900 fps only went 20 yards before stopping. The shot was not a double lung (it was a glancing pass-through from the rear ribcage on one side to the front ribcageon the other side), but it did blast open the liver and tipped the heart. There was a massive amount of blood internally, but not externally.

[44man]

Mike, no, a boolit that wobbles will go off course in an animal. All shots with slow or fast has run a true, straight path. The old timers referred to "Dwell" time in an animal for the best killing effect. I am really believing in it now.
Stability depends on rate of twist at the velocity shot, so a stabilized slow boolit is no different then a stabilized fast boolit if the twist is correct.
More thought needs to be done with this.

[Lloyd Smale]

get in on one of the gas check group buys. Gator checks sells two checks on for 45 rifles and one for 45 handguns. Ive got a bunch of 4570 molds and between the two checks one will usually fit.

[WHITETAIL]

phc 45-70, Welcome to the forum!:drinks:

[WHITETAIL]

You have the same gun as me.
And the same boolet.
So here is what I did.
The lead is strait WW and for the
problem with the gas check use a
drop of nail polish inside of the gas check
when you size them.
Then let them sit over night.

The next day I resize and add the lube.:roll:

[BruceB]

I agree with adding some kind of "stickum", as whitetail suggests. Never thought of using nail polish, though. What color works best???? With a different .45 rifle-bullet design, I used red Loc-tite for the purpose and it works fine, at least up to the point where the bullet gets seated in the case.

My current preference is to put the adhesive in the gascheck and size IMMEDIATELY. By doing it this way, the sizing process will not be able to destroy the bond which has occurred between bullet and gascheck. I suspect that a brittle adhesive might just fracture under the stress of sizing if it's allowed to set-up before being pushed through the die.

Doing as I do can give rise to some problems, such as leaving the occasional check sitting in the die after sizing. It then has to be fished out and stuck back on the bullet. Also, too much "goo" in the check can lead to getting some on the interior of the die. Neither of these conditions has given me any difficulty, and I'd rather deal will these problems and have the assurance that the bond between bullet and check is as good as possible.

Of course, there is no guarantee that the bond will survive the firing process. Unless we can recover bullets with checks still glued on, or use a screen of some kind near the muzzle to detect stray gas-checks at muzzle exit, we are using the method mostly on faith. That's OK with me, if down-range groups are acceptable.

[jack19512]

This probably isn't any help but I have not had/found the need for a 45/70 with a GC yet. If it were me I would order a Lee 2 or if 6 cavity is to your liking Plain base mold or do what I have done with several of my aluminum molds and just alter the cavity on one so you can have the option of a GC or no GC boolit.

[KYCaster]

I agree with adding some kind of "stickum", as whitetail suggests. Never thought of using nail polish, though. What color works best????


When in doubt, go with the same color as your lipstick. [smilie=1:

No need to thank me....I'm just happy to help.

Jerry

[DLCTEX]

If it were me, I'd go with Ranch Dog's molds, no gas check.

[Dave B]

Dale Clawson hit the nail on the head. 350 gr tumble lube sized to .460 . Leave off GC . 28 gr 5744 shoots one ragged hole at 50 meters with 1895CB.