38 / 357 hp - w/c

[Ben]

I now have a Lyman 35891 that has been HP'd by Erik.

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/

The mold arrived today via US Postal.
I had to plug up the pot and cast some.
The " as cast " HP W/C bullet weighs 112.5 grs.
I assume that the 35891 would have originally weighed in the neighborhood of 148 grs before the mold was HP'd ? ?

I figured that these would be hard to get to fill out properly...... WRONG !.......I'm getting about a 2% rejection rate. It is very easy to cast with this mold.

My wife carries a 2 " snub, 38 Spec., She won't be shooting farther than 6 - 8 feet, if that far........

This thing looks like a whiskey shot glass headed toward you.

Photos below :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/35891%20HP/PICT0012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/35891%20HP/PICT0010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/35891%20HP/PICT0008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/35891%20HP/PICT0001.jpg

[madcaster]

That's GOTTA HURT!
But,if ya have to be shot with it,maybe you deserve it!

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
Nice looking boolits and the HP is impressive. You could easily turn those around and have a nice target boolit.
I would find me a goat size critter and do some penetration tests. Those walls look like they are going to colapse on themselves. And a 112 grain boolit puts this in the class of a 32.
My wife shoots our 5 shot Rossi 2 inch with a 162 WC (30-1) with 4 grains Unique and shoots it REAL well. I have no doubt that 162 WC is going to penetrate. The nice thing is you can reduce the hollow point.
I say all this because I just would have a bad feeling about trusting that boolit without some real tests. I know of individuals that have tried shooting mean critters (BIG crocs, pigs, wild dogs) with the wrong projectile and were glad to escape with their lives.

[94Doug]

Wow. That IS cool.

[Ben]

missionary5155 :

Thanks, I don't plan on putting anyone's life on the line with this new bullet in a defensive situation, until it has been tested for penetration and expansion.

Ben

[GLL]

Ben:

I had Buckshot make a somewhat similar modification of a WC mould for me. My HP pins do not extend as deeply as on yours. I will try and get photos up for comparison.

Jerry

[Ben]

Jerry:

This is the mold I was telling you about a few days ago. Yes, I'd love to see some pics of your mold !

Thanks,
Ben

[Frank46]

Ah Ben and Jerry!!!!!!!!!, Sorry guys couldn't resist. Ok took my meds and will be a good boy now. Hey us old farts gotta have some fun once in awhile. Darn forgot to take my nap today. Frank

[GLL]

Ben:

Sorry for the delay !

Here is the 358432 I had Buckshot HP. He made me two pins. One is hemispherical and the other a shallow cone profile. I have not had a chance to load or test yet but I am sure the expansion will not be anywhere near as extreme as yours.

I may request another pin that will produce a much deeper HP ! :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/6D7B98B3C168E6C/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/7BC734EE9873F37/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/F361B8224E257B5/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/04B12C2E50E8349/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/1806BA7A7658FAA/standard.jpg

[z4lunch]

steve here... Erik, made a replacement pin for my factory Lyman 358 156. he mailed it today I should have it by Saturday. I will post pics when it arrives
Steven

[Dale53]

Jerry;
Thanks for the excellent pictures. I am VERY interested in test results (shooting lengthwise into a water filled 2 liter bottle for instance). I would hazard a guess that the shallow cup point will be the more practical design.

Just as important are the accuracy results. Keep us updated as weather and time permits.

Dale53

[z4lunch]

steve here... Erik, made a replacement pin for my factory Lyman 358 156. he mailed it today I should have it by Saturday. I will post pics when it arrives
Steven

My original mold showed up today, back from Erik for a replacement pin. I plan on making some bullets tomorrow... It's -8 below here right now...Should be warmer tomorrow
Steven
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x33/z4lunch/IMG_0598.jpg

[z4lunch]

Here's a close up
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x33/z4lunch/IMG_0599.jpg

[Ben]

z4lunch

I've got a Lyman 358156 that is a " factory " HP.
A great bullet ! !

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0003-11.jpg

[Ben]

Jerry,

Thanks for the photos of the 432'. Looks like Rick did you an excellent job on the HP'ing ( as is usual with Rick ) !

I've got a Lyman " 4 banger " in the 432'.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0007Small.jpg

I've never shot any of them.
Many say it is a fine bullet ? ?

Ben

[Hardcast416taylor]

I can just hear the raving about what I am about to say. You can get just about as vicious a h.p. by inverting a Hornady hollow base wadcutter and loading it. I can tell you it makes a mess of what you shoot it at within 15 to 20 ft. and at a lot less money than customising a mould. :roll: Robert

[Ben]

I paid $48 for my mold. Will $48 get you an unlimited supply of those Hornady bullets ?

[beagle]

That's the beauty of casting. You can make a truckload until your arm gets tired./beagle

[Cooter]

Is that Lyman 358 156 the same mold that Skeeter liked to use with the 2 crimp grooves? Crimped at the front for .38Spl's and crimped at the rear for .357's or something like that?

Great looking molds!! I am slowly building my mental list of molds to get thanks to you guys.

[mtgrs737]

Hardcast,

Your failing to see the point here! LOL! We LIKE to do these things! LOL!

Just :kidding:

[oso]

So you think that pin displaces about 36 grains (148 - 112 = 36) of boolit? Oughta be fun and easy to shoot out of a snubby. My testing of large hollow point boolits suggests they may fragment at higher velocity impact, but mushroom well with the right load. I found heavier boolits with smaller cavities seemed to hang together better when expanding. Let us know your results and chosen load.

[hammerhead357]

Man after looking at the HP wadcutters maybe I need to get out an old H & G 2 cavity wadcutter mould I have and send it to Buckshot. Looks like it would be a fun and interesting project to work on. I have been thinking about having him work on a 2 cavity RCBS 38 swc mould for me any way. However I do like the deeper HP for the semi-wadcutter type boolit.....Wes

[Ben]

Wes:

Postage on two molds sent to Buckshot is a better deal than sending one.

Rick does excellent work.

Ben

[z4lunch]

Steve here ... here's a pic of my hollow points I cast this afternoon

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x33/z4lunch/IMG_0615.jpg

[MakeMineA10mm]

I got my 358156 back from Buckshot with 4 different HP spuds. I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow. Rick does fantastic work, at very reasonable prices!

[deltaenterprizes]

God help you if you use one of those"Mankiller Bullets" in a self defense situation. If the District Attorney doesn't convince the jury to lock you up the plaintiff's attorney will take everything you own and give it to the deceased's common law wife and 10 illegimate children!

[vanilla_gorilla]

God help you if you use one of those"Mankiller Bullets" in a self defense situation. If the District Attorney doesn't convince the jury to lock you up the plaintiff's attorney will take everything you own and give it to the deceased's common law wife and 10 illegimate children!

:roll:

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK, here are the pins that Buckshot made for me. The first one is based off of Ben's 446 mould (I think - Ben's had so many HPed, that I can't remember! :mrgreen: ). He and I thought of almost the same idea simultaneously, but he got his mould to Rick first. Then, when I brought the idea up to Rick, he pointed me to Ben's thread. When I saw what Rick and Ben worked out, I knew it was identical to what I had been thinking of, except for the point at the deepest part of the HP. Rick was able to whip this up fast, since it was so close to Ben's:

[MakeMineA10mm]

This one is another idea I had. I've always liked the idea of the convex shape on the inside of Winchester's JHPs. Just looks like it would enhance the hydraulic force opening the HP up. So I asked Rick to do something similar:

[MakeMineA10mm]

Rick surprised/honored me with two more spuds to experiment with. The first one is kind of a cross between a cone-point and a cup-point. I'm eager to try this out at high velocity, because it would probably prevent the violently explosive expansion I'd get with the more gargantuan HPs above:

[MakeMineA10mm]

And, lastly, Rick threw this one in for me, after I made a genuine comment of respect/admiration for his making a smaller-diameter HP with the large-diameter base of the other pins. I commented that it would be nice to have a duplicate of the Lyman pin, but with the larger-hole for the lrg-dia pins I wanted above, I didn't think it was worthwhile... He threw it in anyway. Rick's a heck of a guy!

[Ben]

For all of us who like to shoot HP cast bullets , Rick is a wonderful friend to have on your side.

Ben

[selmerfan]

Has anyone tried the Forster hollow-point jig for the Forster case trimmer? I have one, but I've never tested boolit expansion with it. It's for .38/.357/.357 Max.
Selmerfan

[Ben]

I've owned one before, if you only want 6 rounds , they work OK.

To load a box of 50, no .

I can cast 10 hp bullets before I can HP one with the Forester HP system.

Ben

[selmerfan]

Thanks Ben, that's kind of what I figured. I doubt I'll need lots HP'd, but I also have the power attachment for my trimmer. :grin: It doesn't take more than 3 seconds to drill a deep HP into my boolit. I'm very tempted to get an HP mold just cause they look fun!
Selmerfan

[Ben]

You'd like a nice HP mold. Many people talk about a high rejection rate with their HP molds.

I run my alloy HOT, I keep the HP pin hot. I use a SUPER CLEAN mold , lightly sooted with a butane lighter.

I have a very low rejection rate. I have a few HP molds that don't have rejection rates much different than their solid version counterparts

Ben

[MakeMineA10mm]

Ben's right, of course. I'd add in that a little tin added to the mix goes a long way, as well. Also, starting with really clean alloy. (Most experienced guys here, smelt their WWs twice - once to clean them and get them separated from the clips, and a second time to alloy them and clean them again.)

I'm borrowing-back a pot so I can get some boolits cast up, maybe starting this weekend...

[No_1]

I have to agree with what everyone has said. To get good HP results from my moulds I have found 3 things are needed: Clean lead, hot lead and a clean mould. I heat my lead to 800+, preheat my mould on a hot plate to ~600, and hang my pin in the melt until I am ready to cast. I made a paper clip thingy that looks like this but hangs further over the melt and lower to it. http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Casting%20Thermometer/DSC01133.jpg I only use the clip thingy in the beginning to get the pin hot and once I start casting as long as I cast fast I do not need to contiue dipping the pin in the melt. One thing I have noticed, if you cannot feel the heat coming from the pin (even with the thimble that Buckshot has installed) then your pin is not hot enough.

Robert

[Bret4207]

God help you if you use one of those"Mankiller Bullets" in a self defense situation. If the District Attorney doesn't convince the jury to lock you up the plaintiff's attorney will take everything you own and give it to the deceased's common law wife and 10 illegimate children!

No offense intended, but please provide any court cases where this has come up and been a factor at all. I went toe to toe with the originator of this urban legend and he dodged the issue like a welter weight champ. When someone comes up with an actual court record showing me this is fact and not fluff I'll be glad to change my opinion. As someone who's had the "Aw crap, do I shoot this guy or not?" issue presented to me face to face a few times I am 100% sure I never want to shoot anyone. But if it happens I have no doubt, at this point at least, that the ammo I use will be a non-issue.

[madcaster]

Sir No_1,
That Sir,is an excellent ideal!
I'm glad that I am hanging out with smart folks!

[MakeMineA10mm]

Bret,
Bear with me, because this is from 20-year old memories, but I remember reading an article, I believe by Mas Ayoob, in American Handgunner, where he recounted the story of a case where HANDLOADED ammo came up and was an issue that was used to show that the guy who shot the bad guy was "eager" and "looking for a chance" to kill someone, and the handloads were used as evidence of this attitude because he developed specially handloaded "mankiller" bullets.

Now, also as I recall, this worked with the jury, but I can't recall now if it was a criminal jury or a civil jury. I want to say it was the latter, because I recall some discussion that his attorney argued that either the shoot was good or it wasn't, and so the criminal charges didn't stick. BUT, since civil awards are based on 51% instead of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and because in wrongful death there are different elements in play than in a homicide, he lost the civil case. This resulted in loss of house, car, belongings, etc.

Still, I agree with your implied points. First of all, if this is the extent of things, then all the parrotting of this story by other authors makes it no more valid of a concern. Second, if this has come up a total of 1 time (if then-I'm going off memory, and this could have been something Mas wrote up as an example of how this could go bad), even after it is well-known in the press and on the internet for at least 20 years, why would we think it is something to worry about?

Chances are, none of us are ever going to use our handguns in self-defense anyway. I still like factory ammo better. Why? Because the bullets' performance has been more scientifically tested for performance in human-like targets. I've got nothing against using handloads or cast boolits as defensive ammo, but I like the fact that thousands of rounds have been put into ballistics gelatin out of real guns and measured per FBI standards for my defensive ammo...

[carpetman]

z4lunch--Your piano is out of tune. Your g string is too tight.

[lawboy]

There have been cases where handloaded ammo got someone into hot water in what could have been a justified self defense shooting. If you search on the S&W forum and on thehighroad, you will find Ayoob has posted some cases of this short with citations you can look up. The thing is, the issues are usually not the thing that people most often cite in these forums, ie., you are some kind of eager lunatic looking for trouble. More often it is some evidentiary issue such as the proximity of the victim to the shooter. The story of the shooter and bystandars or the victim differ as to their relative locations and posture. CSI will sometimes use powder burns, to make a determination, or will test samples of the same factory ammunition to see how far the powder is thrown, or how far the bullet carries traces of powder or what have you. When handloads are used, there is no exemplar that can be used for testing so you lose the benefit of that evidence to prove your story. Things like this can and do happen. Is that a reason not to shoot someone with a handload when you could have used factory ammo? I think it is.

[z4lunch]

z4lunch--Your piano is out of tune. Your g string is too tight.


As a matter of it is out of tune!!!
Steve

[Dale53]

I am a retired major case insurance claims rep. Everything has been used in court and will continue to be used (the defendant did this because he hates blue eyes, etc) whether valid or not. However, I DO not believe I would let that color my choice of ammunition.

I, also, subscribe to the "good shoot or bad shoot" theory. In fact, whether factory ammo OR reloads are used, in a civil case (and I DO know about civil cases), regardless it will be examined to possibly bolster a bogus case. It happens every day in every possible scenario. "He OBVIOUSLY was looking for an excuse - look here he was using BLack Talon ammo (remember that flap?)" or whatever.

In my view there are other much more important things to worry about. Yeah, back to whether it is a "good shoot or a bad shoot".

Frankly, for any civilian, you will always be fighting the moment you fire the shot. First it will be the police, then if you weather that storm, it'll be a civil suit. BANK on it. I have a close policeman friend. He was a detective on duty. He and his partner stopped for lunch at a local drive in. A young woman came running up, scared out of her wits and stated she was being attacked. The detective (my friend) approached the car from which the young woman exited. The perp got out of the car with a butcher knife in his hand (he had been threatening the young woman with the knife). The detective pulled his S&W Model 59 and ordered the perp to drop the knife. He did but when the detective attempted to cuff him he went for the detectives gun. In the struggle, the policeman struck the perp in the head with his pistol. It discharged and struck the perp in the head. It was investigated and pronounced a "good shoot". The policeman was sued by the wife of the perp. It turned out that the young woman he attacked was a 15 or 16 year old baby sitter and the perp had an ongoing affair with the young woman. She decided this was a bad idea and had just told him he couldn't do it any more. THAT was the motive and still the wife sued the policeman.

I talked at length to the policeman. He was a master pistol shot and told me he didn't have his finger on the trigger. We ran a test and it was possible to fire a Model 59 by striking the butt against a padded surface (S&W was also part of the suit). This apparently was an inherent fault of the pistol. During trial, a settlement (rather modest) was reached to put a stop to the cost of litigation. The detective had NO intention of shooting this perp but it did happen while protecting his life and yet he gets sued.

So, moral of the story, regardless of what happens, be prepared to defend yourself.

Dale53

[Bret4207]

You WILL no doubt have a long, nightmarish life after you pull the trigger on someone, no matter what ammo or circumstances. My issue is with Ayoob and his claims. I went after him once and he can dodge like a cottontail in the weeds. You WILL NOT get a straight, clear answer from him, ever. I take nothing away from his skill as a professional witness, writer or shooter. I do take exception to his portrayal of himself as a street cop of long experience. I also take exception to his attempts to back up some of his past statements, like the issue here with handloads.

If someone can provide documented cases where a handloaded round or home cast boolit made a substantial difference in the outcome of a criminal or civil trial I'd love to see it. Taking the word of someone who has a monetary interest in maintaining his status as an "expert" is kind of like taking the word of Al Gore about Global Warming.

Just for fun someday ask Ayoob to tell you just how time he has on the street. If his defense runs like it did with me he'll end up wanting to send you his "Boni Fides". I had to ask just whutn'ell "Boni Fides" were. Turns out they're records of his education!

[Willbird]

I read Mr. Ayoobs stuff, but I take it with a grain of salt. Each one of us stands a higher chance of being struck by lightning than being involved in a self defense shooting. Yet people spend THOUSANDS of of times more effort in preparation for a civil suit from a sd shooting than they do preparing for the aftermath of being struck by lightning :-). In Ohio we now have a castle doctrine law, if we shoot in self defense in our vehicle or our house generally we CANNOT be sued. That is the best reform for these lawsuits hatched by greedy lawyers.

Bill