Round Ball or Lee Conical for Ruger Old Army?

[put]

I just got an Old Army this week. It is a 7 1/2" Blue. What would be best the round ball or the Conical. I know I can get a Lee mold just for the Ruger that is .456.

Any thoughts?

Also, black powder or the substitutes?

[DLCTEX]

Mine is most accurate with round balls, but also does well with conicals. I have also fired 255 gr. SWC boolits sized .454. If you want to try some of the Lee conicals PM me your address and I'll send some. The only powder I have used is Pyrodex. DALE

[Junior1942]

Mine is also most accurate with round balls. I've used only Pyrodex P.

[SWIAFB]

Dale, how much powder and how well did it shoot with the .454 255gr's ? I just got that mold and haven't cast any yet. I've used Pyro P, RS, 777, and the holy Black 3F. Holy Black seems to shoot the best, but the nut steering has to do their part. SWIAFB

[cajun shooter]

Go to this site and look up Dick Dastardly. He sells a big lube conical that was designed for the Rugers and BP. Open Range or try BIG Lube Bullets On search .

[44man]

Mine is also best with a round ball. With Swiss FFFG I get 1102 fps and it thumps deer like a .44 mag.
I never got accuracy with the Lee boolit but it shoots very good with a .45 boolit. A friend gave me some boolits long ago and I have no idea what it is so I made a mold close to it. The ones on the right are what he gave me and the left is my boolit.

[Jbar4Ranch]

ALL nine of mine shoot better with round balls than with the Lee conicals or .45 acp SWC's. Unless you're going to be hunting with it, stick with the round ball. Gennywine black powder with Remington #10 caps is the only way to go!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/jbar4ranch/RugerOldArmies.jpg

[DLCTEX]

I don't know the weight or measurement of the powder I use with the 255 gr. boolit as I just trimmed a 45 Colt case to measure enough powder to allow the right amount to allow the boolit to seat reliably. Just used trial and error. Care must be taken to seat the boolit straight from the start to eliminate boolit jump. A bevel base would help with this.

[put]

Thanks for the info.

dale clawson - Thanks for th offer but I thinkI will buy the round ball. I have a couple of 45 cal molds for my 45 Colt. It may be fun to play with some of them.

This just a lot more eciting.

[kingstrider]

ALL nine of mine shoot better with round balls than with the Lee conicals or .45 acp SWC's. Unless you're going to be hunting with it, stick with the round ball. Gennywine black powder with Remington #10 caps is the only way to go!


Wow I've never seen that many Old Army revolvers in a single photo. Awesome!

[44man]

ALL nine of mine shoot better with round balls than with the Lee conicals or .45 acp SWC's. Unless you're going to be hunting with it, stick with the round ball. Gennywine black powder with Remington #10 caps is the only way to go!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/jbar4ranch/RugerOldArmies.jpg
I don't like the powder reduction with a boolit for hunting. The round ball is VERY effective.
That is one fantastic pile of guns though!

[Junior1942]

My Old Army in blued steel was the most accurate pistol I've ever owned. It would put a cylinder full in one ragged hole @ 25 yards. That was with a round ball and Pyrodex P. Alas, I sold it. . . .

[fallout4x4]

So do I have an oddball revolver then? I cant measure the barrel, but the cylinders measure .445 The only conicals I have seen are .450 and .456

[JesterGrin_1]

The round ball is .457 and the conical is .456. This is so you have a good gas seal when you press home the boolits into the chamber.

[Texasflyboy]

Any thoughts?


Playing around with these I find the .45 Colt conversion cylinder well worth the expense.

I just shoot my normal .45 Colt light loads in it. Regular tack driver.

Conversions HERE (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=453070#enalarge)

[fallout4x4]

The round ball is .457 and the conical is .456. This is so you have a good gas seal when you press home the boolits into the chamber.

I understand having a good seal, but .011 smaller cylinder than the boolit is a big difference at least to my mind. I've tried my .45 acp's and they drop at .451. I cant even get them started in my revolver.

[JesterGrin_1]

This is only for the Ruger Old Army Fallout. The other makes of .44 Black Powder revolvers use a .451 ball which will cut a round circle of lead off of the ball when you seat them. Sorry never shot any other black powder revolver other than the Ruger Old Army.

[catboat]

Can't remember where I read it (Guns Digest? Some gun mag?), but it was by C.E. Harris. He used a Lee Precision REAL (rifling engraved at loading) bullet, in the lighter weight for that caliber (.45 cal). It has three bands and grooves, rearmost is smallest. Designed for muzzleloading rifles, but worked very well in the Old Army (which was the point of his article).

Lube the bullet first. With mutiple lube bands, you don't have to put a smear of lube over the loaded bullet, like you have to with a round ball.

[Critr]

Jbar4Ranch:

I have a Ruger Old Army 7 1/2 SS, and am thinking of shooting it with my old 3-screw Super Blackhawk in Josey Wales competition. (My regular sixguns are Ruger New Vaqueros.)

OK, I'll finally get around to my question. I am thinking of shooting 45 Colts in my Old Army. I see conversion cylinders in your photo. Do you have the R&D or Kirst? Or both? Which should i get? And why?

[Critr]

Texasflyboy:

I assume from your link that you chose the R&D. Care to elaborate on why?

[Old Ironsights]

With Catboat here. 200gr REAL. Best/most accurate in mine. Best velocity too.

Here's Ed Harris's (Ed's Red) stuff on the ROA:

To: All Message #: 5492
From: Ed Harris Submitted: 09 Aug 93 17:25:00
Subject: Best Loads for the Ruger Status: Public
Received: No Group: FIREARMS (19)

RE: Best Loads for the Ruger Old Army
Best Loads for the Ruger Old Army

By C.E. Harris

Round balls are still the best choice for general use in either
light or heavy loads. They are easy to cast, accurate, and
effective for small game. A round ball at higher velocity is a
better killer and more accurate than the conicals. I see no good
reason to use the conical bullets at all in cap & ball revolvers.
There are other, better options, if you want a heavier bullet than
a ball.

The Lee 200-gr. REAL is the best choice for a wadcutter bullet in
most .44 cap & ball revolvers. Its tapered dimensions are
adaptable to a variety of chamber diameters and it is easy to load.
A charge of 20-25 grs. bulk measure of FFFg or Pyrodex P, using a
.38 Special or .357 case for a measure approximates the ballistics
of .45 ACP wadcutter ammunition. In the Ruger Old Army or Colt
Walker replicas, 30-35 grs. bulk measure of black powder or
Pyrodex, using a .44 Special or .44 Magnum case for a measure fills
the chambers, leaving enough room to seat the bullet properly over
a wad. This load produces 2 to 2-1/2" groups at 25 yards, about
900 f.p.s. and 360 ft.-lbs. of energy.

The 250-gr. REAL bullet can be used with good effect in the Ruger
Old Army and Colt Walker replicas. It is both highly accurate and
authoritative when the chambers are filled to capacity with 30 grs.
bulk measure (a .44 Special case full) of black powder or Pyrodex
and no wad. This load produces 880-980 f.p.s., depending upon the
powder type and granulation, groups of 2" at 25 yards and generates
energies from 430-530 ft/lbs! You don't need an over-powder wad
with the 250 REAL in the Old Army when loading more than 25 grs.
bulk measure (a .357 Magnum case full).

A wadcutter bullet can be sized and pre-lubricated like a
conventional bullet, eliminating the need to apply grease over the
ball. The bullet diameter should be 0.0015" larger than the
largest chamber. This makes loading easy, while ensuring a
positive seal for safety and a tight fit so that the bullets don't
creep forward in recoil with heavy loads. I lubricate REAL bullets
for my Old Army in a .454" sizer, and fill the grooves with a soft
home-made lube made from 50-50 paraffin and Vaseline, with either
4 oz. of heavy white mineral oil or RCBS Case Lube II added per
pound. This is easier to use and stiffer than Crisco, doesn't melt
in hot weather, and keeps the gun clean.

With Hodgdon Pyrodex it is essential that the charge be compressed
to eliminate all airspace, otherwise hangfires or misfires will
occur. With charges less than 20 grains bulk measure in the
replicas or 25 grains in the Old Army, a full stroke of the rammer
is inadequate to compress the charge unless a wad or other filler
is used. It is necessary to place a felt wad over the powder
charge, seat it to the maximum depth of the rammer and pour Farina
or Cream of Wheat, (dispensed from a catsup bottle) to fill the
chambers, then spin the cylinder to strike the filler off level
before seating the ball. If using enlongated bullets fill the
chambers to within 1/4" of the top. Seat the ball normally, with
a firm stroke in which you should feel the charge compress before
the end of the rammer stroke.

With black powder, failure to compress the powder results in lower
velocities, greater velocity variation and vertical stringing.
When using over 20 grains bulk measure in the 1860 Colt or 1858
Remingtons, or 25 grs. in the Ruger Old Army, an Ox-Yoke wad by
itself over the powder is adequate. With lighter charges, use
Farina or Cream of Wheat also. A wad isn't necessary with heavier
charges, but accuracy is better, velocities are higher, the bore
leads less and the gun is far easier to clean afterwards.

The loads in the table used backstop scrap from .38 wadcutter and
.22 rimfire bullets, 8 BHN, containing 1.5% antimony and 0.3% tin.
The results speak for themselves. Pure lead IS NOT ESSENTIAL!
Traditional wisdom states that the sprue of a round ball must be
placed up and centered for uniformity. If your mould produces a
distinct shoulder around the cut-off, this is true. This
precaution is unnecessary with balls cast in Lee moulds, which are
round any way you want to measure them. I never pay any attention
to the sprue. They shoot fine, so another myth bites the dust!

When the rear sight is bottomed out, on my Old Army, Ruger's
recommended load of 20 grs. of FFFg, strikes high in the ten-ring
of the 25-yard Timed and Rapid-Fire pistol target. A heavier load
of 35 grs. of FFFg hits at 12:00 in the nine ring. Heavier bullets
strike at the upper edge of the paper. The Ruger's front sight needs
to be 0.080" higher to permit greater flexibility in loads.

The Ruger Old Army is the finest cap & ball revolver ever produced.
Properly managed, it can be either a precision target arm or a
powerful hunting gun. The Ruger is far superior to anything else
out there. Mine is more accurate than any modern cartridge
revolver I've owned, except for "tricked out" custom target guns.
I know a half dozen other Old Army owners who feel the same way,
and know mine is not a fluke. I attribute this to the Ruger's
cylinder throats being smooth, round and ideally dimensioned,
.452", compared to a barrel groove diameter of .451". In addition,
the gun is perfectly timed, and the forcing cone smooth and
concentric. A well turned out percussion revolver gives better
bullet-to-bore alignment than a cartridge gun, because the bullet
is an exact fit to the chambers. In a cartridge gun the bullet and
cartridge must be somewhat smaller than the chambers to enter
freely, and there is always some misalignment and deformation.

When shooting black powder, bore condition is critical to maintain
accuracy. A load which groups 2" when fired from a clean bore will
double its group size within 30 rounds, if the bore is not cleaned.
Competitors using black powder, as opposed to Pyrodex, brush the
bore and chambers each time they reload, to maintain a consistent
bore condition. Cleaning during a shooting session is unnecessary
when using Pyrodex.

Black powder varies in quality and strength, even between different
lots of the same brand and granulation, so your results are not
repeatable over time. The Goex FFFg black powder used in the table
is of 1993 production and the stronger of two batches I tested.
Another lot of the same brand and granulation, old, gave over 100
f.p.s. lower velocity with the same charges. This is typical
experience with black powder. I prefer Pyrodex because it gives
better ballistic uniformity, less fouling, improved accuracy and
permits higher velocities while maintaining accuracy.

"Best Loads" For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards, sandbag rests, Ox Yoke
wads over powder, and Lee Case Lube over ball unless otherwise stated.

BULLET POWDER CASE VEL@10' Avg. ES (ins.)
WEIGHT/TYPE DIPPER (f.p.s.)

.457 RB 20 FFFg .32-20 801, 43 Sd 1.84
Ruger's Recommended Load, no wad, Farina fill

.457 RB, 16.5 P .32-20 911, 22 Sd 1.91
Farina fill (20 grs. bulk measure)

.457 RB, 20 RS 44 Spl. 883, 30 Sd 1.80
No fill (30 grs. bulk measure)

.457 RB 30 FFFg .44 Spl. 971, 15 Sd 2.00
wad, no fill

.457 RB 35 FFFg .44 Mag. 1010, 9 Sd 2.13

.457 RB 30 RS .30-30 1201, 27 Sd 2.53
no wad, no fill (41 grs. bulk measure)

200 REAL 25 FFFg .357 Mag. 864, 7 Sd 2.01

200 REAL 20 RS .44 Spl. 836, 29 Sd 1.91
No fill (30 grs. bulk measure)

200 REAL 30 FFFg .44 Spl. 882, 16 Sd 2.13

200 REAL 25 RS .44 Mag. 914, 41 Sd 1.82
No fill (35 grs. bulk measure)

200 REAL 35 FFFg .44 Mag. 1017, 15 Sd 1.89
no wad, no fill (35 grs. bulk measure)

250 REAL 30 FFFg .44 Spl. 882, 12 Sd 1.60
No wad, no fill

250 REAL 25 RS 44 Mag. 913, 32 Sd 2.03
No wad, no fill (35 grs. bulk measure)

250 REAL 24 P 44 Spl. 982, 28 Sd 1.94
No wad, no fill (30 grs.)


Date: 09 Jan 94 11:46:57
From: Ed Harris
To: Nolan Lee
Subj: Old Army Question

Loads for Ruger's Old Army:

Ruger's instruction book recommends a light target load of 20
grs. of FFFg, and filling the remainder of the chamber with
corn meal or Cream of Wheat to take up the airspace.

Round balls should be .457" diameter, to ensure an adequate
cylindrical bearing surface is formed on the ball to take the
rifling. Soft, bevel-based .45 ACP lead semi-wadcutters such
as the Saeco #131 or H&G #130BB may be used if .453" diameter
or larger. This is required so they fit the chambers
tightly to prevent their creeping forward from recoil. I
find the .45 ACP wadcutters are more accurate than the
traditional blackpowder conicals.

As the gun comes from the factory, the sights are best suited
for use with round balls. Ruger's recommended load of 20
grs. of FFFg strikes high in the ten-ring of the 25-yard
Timed and Rapid-Fire pistol target. A heavier load of 35
grs. of FFFg hits at 12:00 in the nine ring. Heavier bullets
of 200 grains or more strike at the upper edge of the paper.
The Ruger's front sight really needs to be 0.080'-0.090"
higher to permit greater flexibility in loads, as the heavier
bullets are truly accurate and provide greater energy for
hunting loads.

The Lee 200-gr. .45 cal. R.E.A.L. is more accurate than
traditional round-nosed conicals, cuts clean holes in target
paper and is of tapered design so it is easy to load. It
shoots accurately with the same charges used for round balls
in the Old Army. I lubricate REAL bullets for my Old Army in
a .454" sizer, and either fill the grooves with a soft stick
lubricant or tumble them in Lee Liquid Alox. Both methods
work well.

A charge of 20-25 grs. bulk measure of FFFg or Pyrodex P,
(Lee 1.3cc or 1.6cc measure) with the 200 R.E.A.L.
approximates the ballistics of .45 ACP wadcutter ammunition.
For a heavy hunting load 30-35 grs. bulk measure of FFFg,
Pyrodex RS or P (Lee 1.9cc or 2.2 cc measure), fills the
chambers when a wad is used, produces 2 to 2-1/2" groups at
25 yards and 850-1000 f.p.s., depending upon the powder used.

The 250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L. bullet is highly accurate and
authoritative from the Ruger Old Army with 30-35 grs. bulk
measure (a Lee 1.9cc or 2.2cc measure full) of FFFg black
powder, RS or P-grade Pyrodex. The 2.2cc measure fills the
chambers to capacity without using a wad, produces 880-980
f.p.s., depending upon the powder type and granulation and
averages 2" groups or less at 25 yards.

--- Load Tables Continue next message ---


In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed



--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: None (1:109/120.3006)


================================================== =============================

Date: 09 Jan 94 12:21:36
From: Ed Harris
To: Nolan Lee
Subj: Loadfs for the Old Army

Black Powder Loads For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards from sandbag rests
CCI Caps, Ox Yoke wads.

BULLET GOEX VEL@10' EXTREME SPREAD (ins.)
FFFg (f.p.s.) Smallest Largest Average
(grs.) Goex Powder lot
-----------------------------------------------------------------
143-gr., .457" Lee Round Ball
fill+wad 20 801, 43 Sd 1.76 1.93 1.84
wad only 25 738, 31 Sd 1.99 2.58 2.24 92MY20B
931, 32 Sd 1.42 2.40 1.88 93JA12B
30 971, 15 Sd 1.79 2.20 2.00
35 1010, 9 Sd 1.50 3.96 2.13
41 1041, 10 Sd 2.46 4.50 3.46 92MY20B
1228, Sd 27 2.22 4.14 3.36 93JA12B
-----------------------------------------------------------------
200-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad 20 699, 25 Sd 1.75 1.96 1.81
25 864, 7 Sd 1.06 2.55 2.01
no wad 30 685, 38 Sd 1.85 2.66 2.23 92MY20B
882, 12 Sd 1.78 2.66 2.13 93JA12B
35 852, 12 Sd 1.20 3.0 2.20 92MY20B
1017, 15 Sd 1.59 2.57 1.89 93JA12B
-----------------------------------------------------------------
250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.

wad 20 672, 12 Sd 1.91 3.0 2.39
25 781, 31 Sd 2.04 2.56 2.22
no wad 30 882, 12 Sd 1.30 2.14 1.60
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Unless otherwise stated, all black powder tests above were based
upon firing Goex FFFg of lot 93JA12B. Two charge levels were
repeated with the 143-gr. round ball and again with the 200-gr.
Lee R.E.A.L. using a different powder lot 92MY20B. This was done
to illustrate that black powder of the same brand and granulation
is subject to variations. The results in this brief test
represent the maximum lot-to-lot variation an individual user is
expected to encounter.

Hodgdon Pyrodex RS Loads For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards from sandbag rests
CCI caps, Ox Yoke wads.

BULLET Pyro.RS BULK VEL@10' EXTREME SPREAD (ins.)
Wt/Type ACTUAL BP (f.p.s.) Smallest Largest Average
(grs.) (grs.))
-----------------------------------------------------------------
143-gr. .457" Lee Round Ball
wad, fill 16 22 725, 30Sd 1.93 2.71 2.40
wad, no fill 20 30 883, 30Sd 1.21 2.52 1.80
25 35 947, 26Sd 2.17 2.68 2.42
no wad/fill 30 41 1201, 27Sd 2.29 3.18 2.53

200-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad, no fill 20 30 836, 29Sd 1.28 2.42 1.91
25 35 914, 41Sd 1.08 2.43 1.82
-----------------------------------------------------------------
220-gr. Lee Round-Nosed Conical
wad, fill 16 22 714, 16Sd 1.73 3.17 2.34
wad, no fill 20 30 815, 25Sd 2.23 3.16 2.73
wad, no fill 25 35 889, 27Sd 2.01 2.99 2.57
-----------------------------------------------------------------
250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
no wad/fill 25 35 913, 32Sd 1.81 2.17 2.03

Hodgdon Pyrodex P Loads For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards from sandbag rests
CCI caps, Ox Yoke wads

BULLET Pyro. P BULK VEL@10' EXTREME SPREAD (ins.)
Wt/Type ACTUAL BP (f.p.s.) Smallest Largest Average
(grs.) (grs.))
-----------------------------------------------------------------
143-gr. .457" Lee Round Ball
wad, fill 16.5 20 851, 11Sd 1.62 2.10 1.91
18 22 884, 14Sd 1.66 2.41 1.94
wad, no fill 21 25 942, 19Sd 1.59 2.3 2.00
24 30 985, 22Sd 1.77 4.85 2.86
29 35 1117, 51Sd 2.15 3.91 2.87
33 41 1189, 31Sd 2.15 4.65 3.32
-----------------------------------------------------------------
200-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad, fill 16.5 20 816, 13Sd 1.73 2.74 2.12
18 22 860, 14Sd 1.66 2.41 1.91
wad, no fill 21 25 940, 31Sd 1.45 2.51 2.02
24 30 1002, 12Sd 2.03 3.17 2.55
no wad/ 29 35 1123, 22Sd 1.98 2.85 2.44
-----------------------------------------------------------------
250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad, fill 16.5 20 759, 9Sd 1.41 2.0 1.76
18 22 781, 16Sd 2.02 2.69 2.40
wad, no fill 21 25 876, 12Sd 1.68 2.08 1.83
24 30 982, 28Sd 1.61 2.69 1.94
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Willbird]

My Old army is the first handgun I ever owned, mom and dad bought it for me as a christmas present when I was 14, that was 30 years ago. I never even had a RB mold for it until recently, all I shot was the Lee conical lubed with javalina. It always shot well enough that I could outshoot dads buddies with about any revolver they brought around. I just used as much fffg or even ffffg as I could cram into the cylinder.

I agree RB's are probably easiest to cast, but with a lube groove bullet you do not need to lube the cyl after loading so their is a trade off. One of the big annual books that comes out every year, shooters digest or some such had a write up on using jacketed bullets in various can and ball revolvers.

I'm not sure if Harris tried the Lee conical made just for the Old Army or not.

Bill

[Paladin 56]

A cylinder full of 777 behind a Lee conical of about 220 grs. will give just over 1,100 fps average with less than 2" 25 yard groups out of my SS Ruger.

There are several problems with using 777, first and foremost being that there isn't any smoke, then it's way too clean, gives a different bark than BP, and shoots way too fast.

Which is why I went back to BP. I figure that if I am going to shoot a BP revolver and get the performance of smokeless with 777, I may as well shoot cartridge guns.

David

[Critr]

????????????????????????????????

????????????????????????????????

[Critr]

No answers............:sad:

Did I say something wrong??:confused:

[Paladin 56]

Critr,

No, you didn't say anything wrong. I like 777 powder for the reasons stated. Since the Old Army is a front loader, even if it's way better than anything that was available 100 years ago, some like to keep things traditional. Using something like 777 that gives "modern" performance from a traditional firearm goes against what some may feel the Old Army stands for. I'm fairly certain that had 777 been available to the old timers, they would have used it and let black powder go by the wayside long ago, even though BP is still around and fun to shoot.

That being said, I still use both, depending on what I'm doing. If I were to attend a shoot at a rendezvous, I wouldn't use 777, since that would take something away (if it would even be allowed) from spirit of the competition. If I were going to hunt with it, I would use 777 to gain the performance edge.

The original question was to RB or to Conical. Use what works for you as both have their merits. Just MHO.

[Critr]

I guess my questions got lost in the shuffle........


Jbar4Ranch:

I have a Ruger Old Army 7 1/2 SS, and am thinking of shooting it with my old 3-screw Super Blackhawk in Josey Wales competition. (My regular sixguns are Ruger New Vaqueros.)

OK, I'll finally get around to my question. I am thinking of shooting 45 Colts in my Old Army. I see conversion cylinders in your photo. Do you have the R&D or Kirst? Or both? Which should i get? And why?

[Critr]

Here is my second post/question:



Texasflyboy:

I assume from your link that you chose the R&D. Care to elaborate on why?

[docone31]

They do not look like conversion cylinders.
My Remington 1861 Army, carrying extra cylinders was their way of speed loading. Even had an holster for just that.
It is very fast swapping out a cylinder on the 1861. I would still have mine except my hand swallows the grip.