BSJRx3 hopeless hornet [Archive]

Bullshop

01-03-2006, 12:47 AM

Dale53

01-03-2006, 02:14 AM

Congratulations, Nathaniel. That is FINE shooting! You sure don't have to break 4000fps to have a world of fun. That should make a wonderful squirrel load.

Dale53

Bass Ackward

01-03-2006, 07:39 AM

That beats anything I was ever able to get a Hornet to do. But Hornets were heart breakers for me. One week I got close to that and the next it looked like a they were applied with a 410 guage.

Dan, you are going to create an ..... obsessive compulsive if you allow this to continue. :grin:

XBT

01-03-2006, 11:31 AM

Very good shooting!

KevMT

01-03-2006, 03:48 PM

Nathanial,
Me thinks you may be Daniel Boone reincarnated!!!!!!! That's some fine shooting!

KevMT

Bodydoc447

01-03-2006, 05:07 PM

Nice group for your young man! Is that NEI a good bullet to start out with? I was wondering if the MidSouth .22 Bator mould would be too heavy to try in the Hornet? I have a little Ruger bolt action I want to try with cast but haven't gotten over my Scots heritage enough to order a new mold and all the .22 molds on Epay are out of my price range. The Lee Bator moud was more in my price range. I am getting a K of .22 checks from the group buy and will likely order a Lee .225 sizer just to complete the set. I know that the Hornet can be frustrating but since I am a plinker/gopher slayer with it I thought cast boolits would be a great way to stretch my shooting dollar.

Congrats again to BS Jr. x3 on the fine shooting.

Doc

45 2.1

01-03-2006, 05:10 PM

Any chance of getting a good closeup of an as cast, sized/lubed, loaded view of boolit and cartridge?

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 05:30 PM

I'd say this it the bullet:

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385224-45-gc.jpg

Joe

cbrick

01-03-2006, 06:17 PM

Nice shooting for such a young man.

That is the same load that I wanted to try. I emailed IMR and they replied that it wouldn't work. I wanted to try it so I loaded 25 rounds but can't get to the range till Friday. I have a very old RCBS 60 gr mould that is a completely different bullet than RCBS lists today.

I can't get this image upload to work or I would post a picture of it. It says it's there as an attachemnt but i don't see it in preview post mode.

Rick

floodgate

01-03-2006, 09:55 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/d5b84d41.jpg
BSJRx3 Nathanial Moses age 8 wanted me to post this for him. It was today with his stock Ruger hornet carbine and tasco scope set on 5x at roughly 50 yards.
Load was
RP case
cci#400 primer
NEI #2 45gn fn wwq @ 650F @.225" speed green
3.5gn Trail Boss
This was the first time we ever tried this powder but you can bet we will be making the rounds with it. The 3.5gn is a case full. After seeing his results I loaded some in the 22 Cooper for tomarrow. A case full in the Cooper is 2.4gn. I like this powder, I dont think it will show much velocity variation with small variations in thrown charges. If you can live with black powder velocities I think it will work out quite well in a long list of cartridges.
BTW that is three shots in that hole.
BIC/BS

BS:

Thanks for the info. I am setting up to load .22 Cooper cases for my Stevens #44 in .22 Maynard (same case. also same as .22 Velo-Dog; Cooper had Fiocchi run them on their .22 VD line), relined to 0.224", for use at BP velocities. That "Trail Mix" powder sounds intriguing. Gotta get some. A half-pound will go a l - o - n - g way at that rate!

If I send you, say, $15 for the sprue-plate lube, including postage, how much do I get?

You've got a GREAT family; an inspiration to us all!

floodgate

Blackwater

01-03-2006, 11:11 PM

Thanks for the report, BS. Always good to get reports like this on "new" powders. How does Trail Boss bulk up?

cbrick

01-03-2006, 11:31 PM

In a Marlin 357, 5.0 gr is a lightly compressed charge, shoots a 150 gr cast 980 fps into a 3 inch group at 100 yards. Great plinking load.

Rick

felix

01-03-2006, 11:46 PM

Looks like there is no chance for a SEE to even think about getting started with a load like that. A full case of irregular shapes is bound to play havok with any wave fronts that are generated, preventing any kind of cancerous buildup of energy. ... felix

cbrick

01-04-2006, 01:05 AM

No SEE with this stuff with 5 gr filling a 357 case. No pressure problems either, ya can't get enough of it into a case to get into trouble. Recoil with the Marlin is really something. The only thing I can think to compare it with is maybe a Marlin 22 LR rimfire. A 9oz can at 5 gr per load will load 787 rounds. Use cast bullets and the most expensive component is the primer. You can shoot all day and still afford to take the wife to McDonald's.

Rick

Bullshop

01-04-2006, 01:35 AM

BS:

Thanks for the info. I am setting up to load .22 Cooper cases for my Stevens #44 in .22 Maynard (same case. also same as .22 Velo-Dog; Cooper had Fiocchi run them on their .22 VD line), relined to 0.224", for use at BP velocities. That "Trail Mix" powder sounds intriguing. Gotta get some. A half-pound will go a l - o - n - g way at that rate!

If I send you, say, $15 for the sprue-plate lube, including postage, how much do I get?

You've got a GREAT family; an inspiration to us all!

floodgate
floodgate
I can get three bottles to you for your money. Best do it qiuck as we just got the word postal rates are going up. Heard the $7.70 FR boxes are going up about half a buck, and stamps to .39

cbrick
I figured it per pound in the Cooper at 2.4gn and got 2916 shots.
BIC/BS

Buckshot

01-04-2006, 04:32 AM

.............Darn fine shooting. I sure would like to see a picture of the young man holding his rifle. It looks like an accurate load, but it also takes discipline by the shooter to get that too.

.................Buckshot

HORNET

01-04-2006, 08:10 AM

BSJRx3 :Very nice shooting. I assume that your Ruger carbine is a #3 which is difficult to control well from the bench consistantly. I don't think I can cut 50 yard cloverleafs with a 5X scope on a good day with anything. Should be an excellent small game load. Did you chronograph it?

cbrick: the cast bullet that you pictured is the old RCBS 22-055-FN whereas the current model is the 22-055-SP. The FN is probably slightly better as a hunting/varmint bullet while the SP is a better choice as a target bullet. The FN will group well out of my #3 Hornet but only at full throttle.

Bullshop

01-04-2006, 01:42 PM

Hornet
No its not the #3 its the mod 77 with walnut stock. I said carbine as it is shorter than his brothers stainless laminate stock.
Could not get a chrono reading. Been having lots of trouble with the chrono. Not shure if it is insufficiant light or the chrono itself. We built a shootin shack last summer and shoot out of the north side. None of our now 30 to 45 minutes of sunlight reaches the north side as the sun just barley rides the southern horizen. My screens are getting pretty ratty and have survived several home repaires due to ah well ah flak, yea periferal damage.

On that boolit pictured I have an RCBS mold that looks just like that but mine is in .228" I assume for the 22 high power. I got it from a board member but as usual cant remember who. I think your #3 has a 1/16" twist and the early 77's did also but the newer ones have a 1/14". I had an early one with 1/16" and it would only handle up to 45gn, and I am talking boolits. The newer ones with 1/14 do right well with about anything up to 60gn.

Buckshot
This fella is the oposite of his older brother. He is dead serious and all business, but far more reserved. He doesn't speak until he has something worth while to say, and is a might camers shy. His performance has spured a confidence. His responce to brothers no big deal comments was a challeng to do better. I think he will hold the title for some time.
Will try to get a pic of him and the new shootin shack.
BTW - He is the best help I have. He stayed by my side and was a great help for the week it took to build the shootin shack. Brothers 1 and 2 left when it seamed like work.
BIC/BS

floodgate

01-04-2006, 11:23 PM

"floodgate

I can get three bottles to you for your money. Best do it qiuck as we just got the word postal rates are going up. Heard the $7.70 FR boxes are going up about half a buck, and stamps to .39."

BS:

THE - CHECK - IS - IN - THE - MAIL

Thanx,

floodgate

w30wcf

01-07-2006, 01:27 PM

Bullshop,
Thank you for your informative report. I have tried Trail Boss in my Win. '43 Hornet and unfortunately, so far, it has not done nearly as well as my pet load of 3.3 / 231/ CCI 500 using either the NEI 45 gr. or Lyman's 225438.

The 231 load does 1,550 f.p.s. to replicate the smokeless .22 W.C.F. cartridge of yesteryear with 50 yard groups averaging in the 3/4" range, sometimes less.

I tried Trail Boss at 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0 (settled capacity load in R-P cases) and
groups ran in the 1 1/2 to 2 1/2" range with some vertical stringing. Depending on the load, the velocity ran between 1,100 and 1,300 f.p.s. Interestingly enough, the 3.0 load was faster than the 3.5 and 4.0 load (!) in my initial tests. Hmmmm. When the weather warms up, I'll be back at it.

This powder has worked great for me in the .30-30 and .45 Colt. So far, not as well in the .44-40, .32 Long Colt or Hornet. Time will tell.

w30wcf

felix

01-07-2006, 01:33 PM

John, you have an ignition problem with the Hornet. It seems the powder towards the boolit is being blown down the barrel. Need primer with less force, or a hotter one, would be my next try. Bullshop is shooting in much colder ambients? ... felix

w30wcf

01-07-2006, 07:06 PM

Felix,

A very good idea. Actually, I did try both small pistol and small rifle primers and to your point, the small pistol primers gave the highest velocity. Cartridges primed with the small rifle primers were about 200 f.p.s.(!) slower.

Temperatures at the two different times I tried the Trail Boss loads in the Hornet were in the 60F range.

With the 3.3/231/ 47 gr.cast, the small pistol primer and small rifle primer gave pretty much the same velocity.

With 4.5/ AA7 (1,570 f.p.s.) the small rifle primer gave increased velocities of 30 f.p.s....accuracy was about the same with either. Same with 5.2 / Sharpshooter, an early .22 W.C.F. smokeless powder / load.

As you alluded to, in some situations, especially with small cases, primer type can make a significant difference. I found that out initially when testing .22 W.C.F. black powder loads. The small pistol primers gave velocities as much as 300 f.p.s. faster than small rifle primers.

w30wcf

Bullshop

01-07-2006, 08:23 PM

w30wcf
That is kinda weard that the lower charge gave the highest velocity with Trail Boss. I have never tried 231 but will. I think I have seen one of those tall fat Win cans somewhere on my shelf with a 231 on it. I have never used that powder for anything. I aquire this stuff at gun shows. Lot of folks come here buy a bunch of stuff then after a winter deceide its not for them and move on. They cant haul the stuff through Canada so it gets sold cheap on the wind down at gun shows.
I tried Trail Boss in the Cooper but am just reinventing the 22 rf. One of my favorite loads in the Cooper is 3.3gn IMR 800X with the 45gn NEI. 800 X is a very bulky disk type powder and the 3.3gn fills the case to the base of the boolit. Sighted 1" high at 40 yards puts me dead on at 100. Shot alot of rabbits with that load last year and out to 100 or a bit more it is instant death. Streach the range a bit and it seems to lose the desicive smack it shows at the closer ranges. At the streached ranges JR with his 223 and 18.9gn H 4895 and the 55gn NEI still had the effect, smack/dead no crawlers.
Would like to hear of your further testing.
BIC/BS

waksupi

01-07-2006, 08:37 PM

Bullshop, you can't haul smokeless across Canada? I've taken in lots of BP, with no problems. Never asked about smokeless.

Bullshop

01-07-2006, 09:42 PM

Bullshop, you can't haul smokeless across Canada? I've taken in lots of BP, with no problems. Never asked about smokeless.
Waksupi
Yes you can haul up to 17 lbs smokless powder and 5000 primers but I dont preach that gospel when trying to buy cheap powder. No deception on my part just a willingness to buy when no one else is.
I was under the impression though that black powder was a no no.
BIC/BS

waksupi

01-07-2006, 10:10 PM

Never had a problem taking it in, or bringingit back out. The Canadian shooters have cases drop shipped to people in the states, and take it back across the border.

cbrick

01-07-2006, 11:12 PM

w30wcf ,

You tried Trail Boss or 231 in the 30-30. What was the bullet weight, velocity and charge? Interesting.

Rick

w30wcf

01-09-2006, 01:26 PM

cbrick,

W231-
has worked very well for me in reduced loads for the .30-30. 5.5 grs. under a 120-125 gr. cast bullet and 6.5 grs. under a 150-155 gr. cast bullet give velocities in the 1,200 f.p.s. range with very good accuracy.

Trail Boss-
In the .30-30, IMR / Hodgdon recommends 9.0 grs. with a 160 cast bullet ... their data showing 1,195 f.p.s. @ 29,100 CUP.

I tried this load under a 158 gr. cast bullet and 5 Rounds grouped into 1" @ 50 yards. Recorded velocity was 1,253 f.p.s. ina 20" barrel. 9.0 grs. TB fills about 90% of the case capacity.

Since I shoot a fair amount of .30-30 "Short Range" loads, I also wanted to give TB a try in that application. I started with 5.5 grs. then went to 6.0 grs. to get into the 1,100 to 1,200 f.p.s. range. 6.0 grs. fills about 60% of the case.

I compared positioning the powder to the back of the case vs. feeding from the magazine. Other favorite "Short Range" powders 231, 4756, Unique, Universal will group into two different spots in that test, usually about 1 1/2" - 2" apart. Not so with Trail Boss. It pushed the 125 gr cast bullets into the same group wether the powder was positioned to the back of the case or not.

I decided to try 2 different pistol primers with the 6.0 gr. load. I did use both the WLP and CCI 200 large rifle primer and there was only 1 f.p.s. difference between them. Accuracy was about the same with both.

125 gr. cast bullet w.w.+2% tin
6.0 TB / WLP 1,139 f.p.s. 5 shot 3/4" group @ 50 yards
6.0 TB / 155 1,133 f.p.s. 10 shot 1 1/4" group @ 50 yards

w30wcf

cbrick

01-09-2006, 02:07 PM

w30wcf,

Thanks, that's just the starting info I was looking for. Just what is needed for a fun day murdering unsuspecting and innocent soda cans and rocks.

Rick

HORNET

01-09-2006, 04:48 PM

w30wcf,
in reply #22, you said that primer type can make a difference. I find that with the .22 Hornet, primer brand and designation can make a big difference. I did some testing while it was still warm out with 11 different primer batches that I had sitting around using the same load ( 7.5 gr. WW680 & lyman 225415) and found that the loads using Rem 7-1/2 and Win WSP primers grouped much better than Rem 6-1/6, Win 6-1/2 ( new and old rounded ones), Fed 200, Rem 1-1/2 & 5-1/2, and the others that I had ( can't remember them all offhand) . This has carried through on loads using IMR4227 as well, although the chargeneeds bumped up a couple ogf tenths with the WSP.
There used to be a couple of others shooting Hornets at the local range ( they gave up- lightweights!!) that swore by Fed 205m's based on their testing with V V powders and Lil' Gun. I intend to pursue this further, maybe get some 205M's and 100M's , when it gets warm enought to shoot again.

felix

01-09-2006, 06:51 PM

Federal primers tend to have the hottest flame with the least amount of force when compared to other brands. These tests took place with what was available from the 1995 primer lots. Also, and this from my personal experience, the Federals have the softest metal which is not ideal for ballstothewall loads. ... felix

w30wcf

01-15-2006, 11:35 AM

Bullshop,
We had some unseasonally mild weather last Thursday (55F), so I played hookey for a few hours from work and took my Hornet + a few more TB filled cartridges to the range. I am happy to report that the results were better this time around but there is still some further load development that needs to be done.

In checking my loading notes, the cast bullets (225438) I had used in the first test were some that were given to me my by a friend. In checking them more closely, I found that they were .003" out of round (.222" to .225"). (They still shoot a- ok with 3.3/231 though.)

So for this outing, I used some NEI 45 gr. (47grs. in w.w. + 2% tin) "match grade" .225" diameter bullets. One thing I did find out with TB is that a deeper seated bullet gave more consistant velocities.....well at least for 4 rounds.

In the past, I have found that my '43 WInchester shoots best with cartridges having an o.a.l. of 1.75".

Velocties recorded at the 1.75 o.a.l. (CCI 500 primer) were as follows:
3.5 / TB - 1310, 1217, 1453, 1364, 1439 average 1,357 f.p.s.
4.0 / TB - 1427, 1433, 1293, 1078, 1320 average 1,320 f.p.s.
Accuracy wasn't too bad this time with all rounds inside of 1 1/4" but velocities were inconsistant.

I then tried one load with the bullets seated deeper at 1.67" o.a.l.
3.5 / TB - 1425, 1408, 1428, & 1400 for the first 4 rounds which grouped into .64". By this time I was thinking that this must be the answer.... but then round 5 went ....811 f.p.s.....what the(?!).

Oh well, more testing to do in the spring.

HORNET,
Thank you for your information on primers. Interesting.

w30wcf

cbrick

01-15-2006, 11:21 PM

w30wcf,

Your 811 fps shot "could" have been, "maybe", "possibly" nothing more than the time of year. I always have a tough time getting reliable chrono numbers this time of year. I have always assumed it's because the sun is so low in the southern sky that the sky screens aren't working properly.

Rick