CAST BOOLIT's first group mold buy

[Oldfeller]

Gentlemen, it is time to cash your member checks and mail your mold counts along with your check for the first Cast Boolits Group Discount Buy.

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Right now the only know group participating in the group purchase is the 7mm Soup Can group. The "moderator suggested" delay to Jan was more delay than the other active mold group could handle, so they opted to pay full price on their 60 mold order to go ahead and "get 'er done" (their choice, one made apart from moderator suggestion and apart from their prior committment to the list's group buy).

The 30 Caliber Soup Can group seems to be stuck on 18 molds and is likely not going to pull in their last 7 orders and be able to send a check to arrive by before the 15th of January to be included in the order which will be placed on the 15th.

(and no, damn it, no further delay is going to take place).

Current status of the only current known participant of the group buy is listed below. They think they have a LEE approved drawing, but they have lost 4 participants due to the delay and they now lack their 25 count to make the mold order.

They are also likely to be operating at a net loss per mold due to the moderator suggested delay which took the group order past the first of the year, invalidating the negotiated pricing and prompting the other group to go ahead and "git 'er done", an action which affects the net price for both groups in a negative fashion since the orginal price negotiations with the master distributors included that 60 count mold group (at their Honcho's written request and after a public mold group poll vote no less).

The 7mm Soup Can group unfortunately in good faith took in checks based on the joint negotiated price which became impossible when the 60 group went on their merry way taking their volume with them.

As 45 nut once said, "no good deed goes unpunished".

The 60 mold group loses a firm $780 dollar savings and the 7mm Soup Can group loses some real dollar number ranging up to $325. Credibility that was achieved with the distributors who were contacted in December will likely be shot in the foot when the much lower actual mold orders come in 2/3 lower in volume, so the likelyhood of a repeated quarterly discounted mold purchase through these two distributors has been reduced to some degree on that side as well.

The real issue with any large group orders (with this group anyway) is that you can't count on anything staying still for the required time period needed to do the deed -- moderators will be "suggesting" delays for the good of the list and some mold groups will apparently break away and do their own thing, irregardless of any prior committments.

Lack of cohesiveness cannot be overcome in group discount ordering.


===========================
===========================

(cut from 7mm Soup Can group)


28311
97754
20111
71479
48415
62801
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504
29407
33170 half-way point exceeded. On the downhill side now ....
62801
04463
83706
02860
37319
85308
70726
80516
37179
18509
75831

Update is that the moderator suggested delay to Jan 15 has cost us 4 participants and we no longer have the required 25 orders to place a mold order.

Yes, we are still taking orders.

PM me or email me for an address to send a check. Since there are no possible additional orders to group with (except maybe the 30 caliber soup can guys) I do not see much of a discount that is powered by larger order quantities. Send all new checks for $56 and I will rebate whatever discount is finally achieved.

Also, please note tolerancing change on the nose area that was requested by LEE. They do NOT claim to be able to cut molds any better than .003" total tolerance (and in fact over an entire mold run they may struggle and fail to do that). They will agree to TRY to hold a .002" tolerance -- that is all.

[Oldfeller]

Well, I actually got three (3) questions. The answers are:

1) Is the cost of the molds going to go up?

Answer: We are going to negotiate like hell to keep to the original price line as lots of checks were taken in at that amount from not only the 7mm Soup Can group but by the 30 Caliber Soup Can group as well. Neither of us plan to lose money out of pocket.

However, between us we only (possibly) tally 50 molds, having the 60 molds from the other group drop out of the picture hurt our negotiating position quite a bit as we originally negotiated pricing at the 75-100 mold range.

If real pricing goes beyond the price point we took checks in at, obviously we will be talking to our members at that point. This has not happened yet as we are still pulling the checks together to find out which ones will clear, etc. Also remember, neither of us technically have enough orders to even place a real order right now when you get right down to it. I for one will be buying the extra molds required out of my pocket as I am tired of waiting.

2) When will the molds actually get there?

Answer: Generally, it has taken LEE a month to a month and a half to manufacture and ship molds when they are busy. This clock starts after the order gets to LEE. Obviously we lack a volume postition to be asking for any "rapid response" favors right now from either the distributor or from LEE.

I would expect the distributor to clump our order in with his next order (more possible delay). However, we will ride with his regular order, which will cut down on the LEE delay since we normally have to wait around for holes in their "regular business" to get our molds cut -- and it would tickle the **** out of me if that happened this time (hee hee) as this order will be "regular business" from a large distributor.

3) How do you feel about all this?

Answer: I don't have any feelings right now -- I got my game face on and I am dealing with the changing variables just like I have to do every month at work with situations much more stressful than this.

Guys, every distributor based LEE group buy is a endless chain of unexpected fun right up until a month after the thing is over when the last of the "oh by the way" miscellanious charges show up and are paid. LEE will stick it to the distributor with little miscellanious ******** charges associated with the mold runs and they pass it on to us weeks after the fact. You pay them as they are part of doing business through LEE's distribution chain.

[Oldfeller]

If you want to be able to go back to LEE through a group buy distributor chain (or have your group members be able to go back to LEE Customer Service with their copy of the drawing) in case of a screw up on LEE's part, it is very important that your drawing strictly adhere to LEE standards as far as the type and size of the tolerancing ranges goes.

LEE insists on a .003" tolerance spread to put any factory guarantee on any important to fit items. When pressed to do better than this, they will only agree to "try to hold" say a .002" tolerance spread (but obviously they are keeping a weasel factor for themselves by only agreeing to "try" to hold the lesser number). Once again, less than .003" total tolerance means no guarantee for our members.

The hard fact is that LEE cannot really hold .003" on all dimensions on all cut cavities over the course of 100 holes (much less the 300 holes or 500 holes like some of our large mold runs go to). There are going to be some ugly surprises hidden inside every LEE custom cut run -- so it is very important that our drawings protect our members and have appropriate tolerance ranges so our members can go back to LEE for factory guarantee relief through LEE Customer Service.

Next. LEE offically insists on tolerancing the drawings using a method that is exactly completely ASSBACKWARDS to the common undersized errors that they generally make when cutting our molds. This is pure confusion on their part, saying they want us to put in a minimum number and applying all tolerancing to the plus side. However, this is part of their historical tolerancing game and simply means a little more thought needs to be applied to our drawings as we put them together. (note: in LEE's second page tolerancing example they DO say you can give them a written tolerance span, minimum number to maximum number with .003" between the two numbers -- just do it that way and avoid the ASSBACKWARDS tolerancing issue entirely)

Bore rider (land top rider) noses are our biggest tolerancing issue with LEE mold runs. Bore rider noses can only function if given the full groove diameter (bore wall) as the print maximum number and a print minimum number of .003" less than that number. This yeilds a BR nose that will engrave and will ride no matter what point it is in the tolerance range. It also acknowledges throat wear that occurs at the start of the rifling somewhat better than other tolerancing methods.

Please Note: LEE is just barely theoretically production capable of making a BR nose design, it is much better to go with designs that are totally sizer die controlled if you have that choice at the concept phase.

Group Buying does not give any guarantee to our members at all -- the distributors we go through have iron-clad "Snix-Snax No Take Backs" statements on custom cut molds that they absolutely enforce. Your group drawing tolerancing and LEE Customer Service are it for a screw up guarantee. So please read the above text and look strongly at LEE's offical tolerancing information reproduced below and DESIGN YOUR BULLETS AROUND THAT REAL-WORLD .003" PRODUCTION TOLERANCE SPREAD THAT LEE REALLY GUARANTEES FOR A PRODUCTION TOLERANCE.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/leepage1.jpg

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/leepage2.jpg

reference LEE Web pages:

http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Mold%20Design%20Assistance.pdf

http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1137370216.2984=/html/catalog/custom.html#CUSTOMMOLDS

[Oldfeller]

We have a provider who will hit the $43 price -- if our drawings adhere to LEE's standard custom cut .003" tolerance ranges (ie. the distributor has no risk due to tolerancing issues).

This means both honchos will need to alter their drawings slightly.

For example, on the 7mm soup can I will lower the nose section print minimum .001" and raise the print maximum on the driver bands by .001" -- this makes the total tolerance range on both items fit LEE standard .003" tolerancing at no risk to bullet function (nose will still engrave and driver bands will still lubricise).

Whether this is acceptable to both groups is yet to be decided.

Oldfeller

PS In dealing with LEE, we have gotten a lot of "we'll try to hit .xxx" or "we'll do the best we can to hold that" then we got undersized bullets and wide tolerance swings compared to our tiny tolerances.

What we didn't get was fixed bullet molds when we were "out of print" as we were non-conforming to LEE's offical mold cutting tolerances in the first place. Perhaps we are actually just now getting in line with the realities of dealing with LEE (being forced to use LEE .003" tolerancing to get the discount through the distribution chain).

[Oldfeller]

===========================================

Plod through this next bit, it is recording the related discussions on .003" tolerancing from an affected group buy thread. It is so long it had to be broken into three posts.

Interesting reading -- some folks can get so tied up in their wishes and wants it seems that they can't deal with a .003" tolerance requirement very well, not even on a totally lubrisizer controlled bullet.

And more importantly, second guessing LEE's mold making process drives all our crystal balls just plumb crazy -- people start to get frustrated.

To cut down on future frustration, here is an easy rule of thumb for designing .003" tolerance into your feature. Which side of the proposed tolerance does "trouble" live on? What number does "trouble" occur at? Move your basic dimension number .003" away from the "trouble" point with the + or the - .003" expressed towards the "trouble" point. Write an handwritten note to Doug telling him to try to hit the basic dimension and stay away from the trouble point or you will have to send the bad ones back as you can't use them.

This gets the point across cleanly ON YOUR ORDING DRAWING and Doug is less likely to screw up on you.

If you are designing a bore rider nose, consider using a tapered bore rider nose. When it is nice and fresh, the boring bar puts the engagement point out at the nose end of the taper, when it dulls or chips (goes undersized) the engagement point moves back up the taper more towards the body.

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Oldfeller's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 431

Default Many or few, how many are .314" or bigger ????
OK, .314" sizer dies DO exist and you can currently buy them from Lyman (Midsouth) so I guess the sizing issue is that some buy members may well be planning to actually size this slug to .314" diameter to shoot it in a Smelly or a Rooskie or an Argie at a .314" groove (bore wall) diameter.

Now, if it were me, I'd not bat an eye at putting a .003" plus tolerance on a totally sizing die controlled .314" bullet mold such that every slug produced would be sizeable at .314" diameter. Actually, some Brit guns go beyond that, as do some Russian guns and giving folks a .315" to .316" capable mold wouldn't hurt my feelings.

But that's me, and I am just one group member of this group (along with being the group buy guy that's holding up 2 orders over this question, that is).

Now, if I were smart and I had me a bunch that really wanted into the group buy price but really didn't want to budge on their drawing, I'd simply ASK THEM how many really plan to size at .314" diameter and then consider the issue accordingly.

You see, I need your input, all you .314" or bigger sizing diameter milsurp shooting rascals -- I actually need to count your noses real quick like.

Once I know how many .314" or bigger there actually are, I can make the best decision as to which rabbit to try to pull out of the magical hat.

Many or few, how many are you?

Oldfeller
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Junior1942
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I'm not in on the deal, but I said in the beginning I would if the diameter was .311" instead of .314".
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Bodydoc447
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I'm probably going to size mine from .310 for the .30 cal rifles to .313 for the .32-20 and .303 British/7.62x54Russ. At least those are the sizers I have now.

Doc

AFRecruiter
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I'm already in regardless, but if I had my druthers it would drop at .311..I am sure I can find a use for a .314 sometime, but I'm really hoping I can squish the thing down to .309 for my K-31s..We'll have to see.
I use Lee pushthroughs and liquid alox with this slug, and it looks like Lee only makes up to .311 without custom ordering a die. So regardless, I am stuck sizing down at least .003. I just couldnt resist a six banger soupcan, and majority rules!

[Oldfeller]

David R
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I stayed out because it was going to be 314. I already have one. If its .311 or .312 I'm in.

David


Oldfeller
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Default I think I hear .....
I think I hear .313" is the biggest sizer anybody plans to use so far. I realize that it takes a day for everybody to read the list and respond to a question like this.

Keep on talking, please. I sure am listening.

Tomorrow I have a converence call with Mr. LEE, Pat and Doug concerning several items that have come up recently. One of them is using WW metal for final fitting (they say they need a new shipment of WW metal from me as theirs may have become "sweetened" to the point of being really dubious -- virgin WW metal casts with difficulty and you have to take the time to throughly clean then you preheat your mold really hot to get it to work acceptably. So a little tin got added, then a little more, then a little more until "it worked right"). .... sigh ....

Tolerancing and "factory guarantee" is the other main issue.

Dealing with LEE is such fun -- you do realize that if LEE sticks with .003" tolerance on custom cuts in WW metal just so as to get a factory guarantee all that really means is that you MAY have a leg to stand on when you cast it in WW metal and it doesn't work for you? Pat is now taking the stance that irregular WW metal is the cause of our difficulties ......

"achooo********" sez I.

But Pat makes no bones about it, LEE's tolerancing requirements are there for THEIR protection against costly returns. Doug saying he can cut something or hold some particular tolerance does not change the letter of their law on the returns issue. Pat knows Douggie can screw up, much less them other TWO guys who run the CNC mold cutters on the other shifts. One of the things I will ask for is ONLY Doug will cut our molds, we will at least get them cut by the same guy we talk to. This is not the case now.

It's kinda like good cop -- bad cop (with LEE Jr being the hanging judge they hold in reserve). Hey, I think I'm up for sentencing tomorrow morning .....

Anyway, by tomorrow night I need to be able to stick my hand in the big black stovepipe hat and pull me out a bunny rabbit -- is it going to be a pink or a blue (or a white?) cuddly bunny?

Oldfeller
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bravokilo
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Talking Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfeller

Anyway, by tomorrow night I need to be able to stick my hand in the big black stovepipe hat and pull me out a bunny rabbit -- is it going to be a pink or a blue (or a white?) cuddly bunny?

Oldfeller


If you remember the old "Rocky & Bullwinkle" cartoons you know what it will be!

BK
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Oldfeller
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I moose-ta not be old enough to catch that reference.

<g>
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bdoyle
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How many time shall we vote? I vote we DON"T make a .317 dia bullet.

Brian

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................I'm not in the buy, but I followed the thread. It was pretty much .314" (as the already avail 2 cav Lee is) or smaller. I sure don't recall anyone asking for one BIGGER! .

I was in on the last group buy of this design and they came out perfect. Hope this is the same.

.............Buckshot

[Oldfeller]

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bdoyle
Boolit Man

Join Date: Mar 2005

Since this was brought out in the public, I might as well give my side. We did a vote for diameter .312 vs .314. We have always attempted (and even succeeded a few times ) to hold a plus .001 tolerance. Well, to fit into the big group purchase we have to open the tolerance band to .003. I said send me back the check and I will deal with Lee personally. The downside to this is it will cost 50 bucks a mould plus shipping. Would we get a better mould? Don't know, can't say, but I would be talking to lee's people myself.
Would it be terrible to set the dim @ .313 plus .003? Probably not. They might set up on CL and we get a perfect mould. They can also all come in undersize. So we stay with .314 minimum. Could get a .317 and still be in print.

We could get a good mould either way.

Brian


45 2.1
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In most of the industry, if you had a 0.003" tolerence range on your delivered product, you would go broke from not getting ANY repeat business plus having to replace the ****ty work you delivered. Too much CYA and BullCrap going on in LEE management.
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45 2.1


Bodydoc447
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I was in for the original specs, I am in now. Whatever the group decides is fine with me. Brian, just let me know if I need to send you some more denero.

Doc

Dutch4122
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Thumbs up
Brian-

I'm with Doc; I'll stay in on this one whatever you decide. Just let me know if you need a few $$ more.

Thanks for all the hard work that you're putting in on this one.
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Oldfeller
Boolit Master

I have to second 45 2.1's "too much bullcrap" -- coming out of Pat anyway. Spoke with Pat again today, "Mr. LEE left early today due to a medical issue, so there will be no upper managment conference call". Pat says LEE is sticking with their offical .003" tolerance requirements as shown on their web page. He's management, Doug is not.

He also apparently likes to go around un-making decisions after Mr. LEE has spoken -- or he makes Mr. LEE unavailable to speak for himself. Pat is the Sales Engineering dude. He is also the bad cop.

Doug is 1) a nice guy 2) a fellow shooter and 3) very proud of what he does with his CNC lathes. He can get a job set up and running nicely, but then sometimes the job moves on him during the run due to boring bars getting dull or hitting a piece of slag in the aluminum. Doug catches this eventually, replaces the bar and sets it all up again. You get some size variation that way (generally to the small side) while this activity is going on.

Doug also tends to tell you what you want to hear -- he's the good cop. Doug gets you to commit to placing the order, even telling you he can hold his roundness tolerance for everything ("he obviously got confused ...") Then Pat tells you "no warranty" because your print was incorrectly drawn to the offical standards and Mr. LEE would say (if Pat let him) that he doesn't think this is an appropriate topic of discussion and that you are obviously prevaricating about the whole tolerancing issue that you yourself caused by not following the rules.

Oh, and about fitting to WW alloy -- Pat says WW alloy is undefined and cannot be cut to. His tones and attitudes indicate he will use this as an excuse from now on, too.

So, to compile all the LEE fertilizer together in one big compost heap -- if you want to do discount group buys with any chance of factory warranty on the cavity cutting (P.S. -- good luck collecting on it) you HAVE to provide .003" tolerance ranges on your features. End of story -- the distributors will likely not ever take tolerancing below .003" because good ol' Pat won't let them. And guess who all distributor orders automatically go through ?

Yep, good ol' Pat, the sales engineer.

Pat did refer to one good design he saw from us (Lar's FAT 30) several times in the conversation, that tapered BR nose impressed him as a good fit fixer on land top designs. I suspect he'll be using Lar 45's tapered BR trick himself as it does recover from the whole tolerancing swing thing when a boring bar goes south during a long run. Pat liked it as when the bar is new fit takes place out at the end of the nose, when the bar dulls and the cut swings undersize fit take place further up on the taper (but fit does still take place).

Now we actually did it to cover a range of guns -- not to keep up with LEE's machining issues. And "fit" that takes place that far back doesn't support a long bullet nose very well.

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Back to the farm, boys. This is a lubriciser controlled bullet that nobody plans to size beyond .313" diameter. LEE historically swings undersize one to two thousands due to run error (if run error takes place) and don't forget the initial .0005" fit error due to wonder metal.

Remember, this bullet's final size is completely controlled by your lubriciser.

.312" to .315" sounds like it would work if you could just cherry pick out one (1) larger mold for your one (1) camper who plans to size it at .313". All the rest of the molds will fall .311" to .313" if LEE does what they have been doing.

( I certainly don't care, just decide something. Anything.)

===========================================

Tomorrow is Friday and it looks like no order gets placed this week. I leave Sunday AM to travel for a week's long stay in sunny Tyler Texas for corporate training. See you week after next.

Hey, why don't you guys go fix this LEE mess while I'm gone?

You do realize my group buy does have a real BR nose to deal with (and I plan to cast each mold to find out which ones require TLC for whatever issues Doug gives me that leak out the underside of the .003" tolerance span).

Oh yeah, one final cow flop for the compost pile ---- Pat says boldly in plain english that LEE does not EVER say or guarantee any bullet out of any of their molds fits any particular gun. "The casting process itself is too variable and there is too much difference in guns".

I'd add to that statement "the LEE mold manufacturing system" just to round it out properly.

[waksupi]

I've stayed out of the group buys lately, and probably will continue to do so for awhile.

The change I need to see, is any mold ordered, has to be spec'ed big enough, to allow for the .003 variation. We know we can size down a few thousandths, with no ill affects. It's harder than hell to size them up. If the designers start putting them up to where the minumum of the Lee tolerances won't screw them up, I'll buy. If it is a total crap shoot, forget it. If someone expects to get anything from Lee, that is going to fall perfect size for thier gun, I have some swamp land in Texas to sell you. Ain't going to happen. Face the fact, you are getting a mold for a cheap price, and you will have to make them fit your gun.

[Bodydoc447]

For gosh-sakes don't respec the mold on my whim of sizing to .313" if we get "fat" molds. I am in for the original specs and anything close to .311-.312" that I can size down is fine with me.

Doc

[Oldfeller]

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Back to the farm, boys. This is a lubriciser controlled bullet that nobody plans to size beyond .313" diameter. LEE historically swings undersize one to two thousands due to run error (if run error takes place) and don't forget the initial .0005" fit error due to wonder metal.

Remember, this bullet's final size is completely controlled by your lubriciser.

.3115" to .3145" sounds like it would work if you could just cherry pick out one (1) larger mold for your one (1) camper who no longer absolutely plans to size it at .313" and forgives you if you can't find a fat one that goes all the way that high. He's happy if it goes .311"-.312" now.

All the rest of the molds will fall .3105" to .3125" with good reliablility if LEE does what they have been doing lately. Suddenly you will get more orders from the fence-sitters chiming in above who didn't want a .314" bullet but did want something around .311"-.312" which is a piece of cake to size down to .309" for their oooo so tight-landed big-actioned aluminum-handled Swiss plucker-shuckers.

It is still a wee bit of a roll of the dice (a LEE always is) but the odds are getting better and better all the time to make MOST of everybody happy.

( I certainly don't care, just decide something. Anything.)

===========================================
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[bdoyle]

So is this a different 30 cal group buy? I have a pile of checks from people who paid for a .314 plus bullet. If you are starting a new buy then say so otherwise I have people who have already 'voted' with their wallets. I made a decision earlier in the week. You have chosen to ignore it.

Brian

[grumble]

I'm not involved in this group buy, but have been loosely following the threads.

From what I'm reading, my main concern is that Oldfeller is haranguing the folks at Lee to the point that they may decide that custom molds aren't worth the effort, and that they will will just shut down all custom mold projects.

[Oldfeller]

Brian, the last PM message I got from you requested me to try (at my own risk) to get an agreeable .003" tolerance range out of your group. The first time I read you had redecided to take you check back was tonight when I happened to read your group buy thread and I saw it. I replied over there (go read it please).

Grumble, you have a point about LEE. Now that I don't have to try to resolve a .001" total tolerance driver band group buy bullet I have no need to talk to LEE any further. The only reason I had to talk to LEE is that Bryan never got his bullet pre-approved by anyone and I had to try to do that particular task "after the fact". My group buy was pre-approved by both Doug and Pat, months ago as a matter of fact.

Here is an example of a marked up order drawing. This drawing will be placed through a distributor for $37 for 25 molds tomorrow around 11:00 AM when the post man comes to pick up the mail.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/asordered7soup.jpg

Also note, back on Brian's group buy thread 45 2.1 chimed in with a stone or two and was asked the same question I will now ask you Grumble -- what .003" tolerance range would you suggest to Brian that would resolve his issues? His check is just sitting in the mailbox, and the night is still young.

Be a hero Grumble, help the man out some.

Kelly

[grumble]

"...Be a hero Grumble, help the man out some..."

No thanks. I don't have a hero complex. I'll leave that to those who feel the need. Instead, I'll let the honcho be the honcho.

[Oldfeller]

Grumble, our average small mold run goes somewhere around 30 molds. A larger one goes over sixty molds. We have been having mulitiple mold runs come in with tolerance-based errors of late, and we have not gotten any repaired by LEE although individual honchos have tried to send molds back to have them corrected.

Saving $15 dollars a mold AND GETTING A GUARANTEE THAT THE MOLD WILL BE IN PRINT (that allows a return) is why we do this. Our "reward" for learning how to apply the .003" tolerance is $450-$900 back into our members pockets on each mold run and not having any more substandard molds sitting on our mold shelves that we have to try to fix ourselves by lapping.

I think it's worth it.

It does force our designers to think things through a little better -- but Ric and 45 2.1 hit the nail on the head, that we as a group need to accept that LEE has larger process variation that swings to the small side and start planning around it and designing bullets and prints around it.

Oops, got to go climb on an airplane. See you next week !!

Oldfeller

[alamogunr]

Folks, I don't post here often but I have just finished printing this entire thread. I can live with the disagreements, etc. in order to try to understand some of the less obvious details of spec'ing a mold. The information in this thread is worth whatever amount I sent in for the .30 cal soupcan, even if it never comes thru. Keep it civil but continue to disagree on things you feel strongly about if it adds to the knowledge some of us are lacking.
John

[35remington]

I'm sticking on the 7mm Soup Can no matter what, as I don't need oversized but I DO need a bullet suitable for a short necked 7mm cartridge, in this case 7-30 Waters and 7-08. Don't want a bore rider for these calibers in the guns I have. The mostly body design that was shown suits me fine.

As long as I can size to .285" I'm good. My barrels are on spec.

[Willbird]

You know OF, please drop me a PM when your done whining about past history and the Honcho's that decided to be Honcho's and not take part in your tangled up mess. I'm going to avoid reading any of your posts until the PM arrives. Also I find it odd that the "Moderator suggestions" only come thru you........I have not seen them in text on the board.

I for one am glad the one buy I was in that the Honcho did so, I have had my mold for months because he decided not to tilt at your windmills.

Lee Precision has equip that will hold dia to .0005, there is no excuse for them shipping mods with a CAVITY smaller than the finished bullet should measure. The secret of making holes all the same size is to check your work...they simply are not doing that.

Pat is a liar and a backstabber, probably a lickspittle and a sychophant too, they all go together in one package usually.

Doug so far as I have dealt with him is an up front guy, and he fixes his mistakes so far, free of charge and with shipping refunded in CASH not in some funky Lee-Credit. Really Doug should have Pats job, and pat should be sweeping the floor.

[waksupi]

Well, I don't remember all this thread, since it has been going on for some time. But, I will say, I was consulted on PM's by Oldfeller, about timing of the buy, in particular. As I recall, the buy was coming up just before Christmas, that gets pretty hectic, and not much spare bullet mold money floating around. I did advise it would most likely be better to wait until around mid-January for that particular buy, to draw more participation. I'll certainly stand by that assessment. I believe one or two other points may have been covered in PM's, but I can not recall actual details at this time.

[swheeler]

lickspittle and sychophant! Hey now there's no need for that kinda language on here!

[Oldfeller]

Molds are being cut march 21-22, three (3) will be cut at print max to a thou over as per the buyer's request. I suspect that the molds will actuallly arrive around the first week of April and will be cast for measurement and shipped starting then (as time permits -- I am currently in Tyler Texas but will be home next week).

I will post an "early report" on outcomes so folks can ring in on what part of the available spread of results that they would prefer to have sent to their house.

I have about 3 extra molds that I will keep until all the various folk's requests are filled and USPS has proven again that they can carry the freight without any "oops" being heard.

So far cost is reported to be favorable. Distributor opted to buy an additional quantity of these same molds which affected price favorably <grin> for everybody -- my cost went down so yours does too. Mine will be cheaper than his because I don't owe anybody a profit margin.

Rebate checks will be my cost plus cost of stamps to ship it -- you will all be getting a check back.

I will roll the data on the LEE production capability numbers using current Six Sigma techniques (state of the art) and will be posting them later rather than making you wait until the measuring and crunching is all done -- we've all waited long enough.

Oldfeller

PS Is that the worst you guys can do??? You used to woulda thought old Aladin had run off with your money -- what is wrong with your ability to think the stone worst on any given situation?

I am disappointed ...... are all you guys getting slack & trusting in your old age?

[45 2.1]

PS Is that the worst you guys can do??? You used to woulda thought old Aladin had run off with your money -- what is wrong with your ability to think the stone worst on any given situation?

I am disappointed ...... are all you guys getting slack & trusting in your old age?

Everyone knows you. You would have too hard a time trying to avoid all of us if you did that and stayed on the net. You would be found and rousted forever.

[Oldfeller]

Bob, I'm glad you missed me while I was gone off working remote. What size did you want your 7mm Soup Can body bands again (and how big is too big for you)?

Molds are in transit as we speak. I will be cleaning the center two cavities from each numbered mold with carb cleaner, pre-heating the molds then pressure casting (direct from bottom pour pot nipple pressing directly into sprue plate cone) to get a full sized relatively wrinkle-free (first cast) measurement casting.

Oldfeller

[45 2.1]

Bob, I'm glad you missed me while I was gone off working remote. What size did you want your 7mm Soup Can body bands again (and how big is too big for you)? Oldfeller

Just being polite and responding to a little sarcasm. I want the 7mm Soup cans at 0.289", bigger than 0.291" might be a little too much.

[StarMetal]

I think .291 would be too big myself also. As you fellows know I made a swage-up die to take the Lyman 150 gr loverin that is about .285 for me, up to .290. Well if I use sized down and trimmed 30-06 cases there is barely room in the chamber for the brass to expand and the neck release the bullet. I'm afraid that others may have even tighter clearances in that area and might even be tight with commercial brass. I also found out that the throat isn't big enough to take a .290 bullet loaded out very far. In my case about 1/4 inch. Now with this shorter bullet being designed that might not be a problem and the bullet will load without going into the powder space of the cartridge. Just my additional information...hope it helped some.

Joe