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jack19512
12-27-2008, 01:19 AM
Deer season is over here for the year now so I thought I would experiment with some round balls and my 50 cal. muzzle loader. I got the Lee .495-182 gr. mold. Will the round balls be OK cast from wheel weights or should I use soft lead? Any pointers as to what it takes to get the round balls to shoot accurately and good is welcomed.

shotman
12-27-2008, 03:06 AM
soft lead ONLY if you get a ball hung half way you will drill it out with WW

Sven
12-27-2008, 04:21 AM
soft lead ONLY if you get a ball hung half way you will drill it out with WW

Hmmm. . . I've always used store bought soft lead round balls, and just bought a mold. I have a bunch of pure lead on hand, but never thought about that aspect of using WW.

Good to know.

missionary5155
12-27-2008, 05:40 AM
Good morning Another aspect of RB is the transfer of energy to the target. WW does not "upset" on impact going through soft tissue. A .485+ ball makes a descent hole but a larger one is always of benefit. And the more "shock" affect available can only help putting the target down.
Then there is the internal barrel activity of a RB. WW will not "obturate" in a barrel under BP pressure. And we still need as good a seal at the breach as possible. Thick tight patches are great. I have not tried shoe leather or Wool Army Blanket but until you start to HAMMER a ball down the barrel the breach pressure at firing is still more than seating pressure. The ball still needs to upset for as near a perfect seal as possible. Lead will do so...WW just cannot.
Then there is the wieght difference and on this all can go......
Now in all honesty I have to say the elephant Hunters 150+ years ago were using what they called Hardened Lead to Smash Tuskers. (No I am not advertising for Dixie Slugs but James seems like the kindof feller I would like to meet face to face) Any way the Ivory guys were using 20-1 and 10-1 tin -lead in patched smoothbores and Paradox guns normally 8-4 bore. 12 bore was considered minimal. But generally they had NO or little rifling to contend with.
So IF you want to cast RB using WW use a very thick patch and get a well made bullet puller. I would also be sure my breach plug is removable and there is a 3 foot drill bit handy.
Having said all this... I do shoot WW for practice and plinking in my .58 zouve replica. I use a .56 mold a thick patch and I know my rifles barrel is smoth after near 20 yeras of service. I do have a good bullet puller and can have a 4 foot drill in a few minutes.

Flinchrock
12-27-2008, 07:00 AM
Deer season is over here for the year now so I thought I would experiment with some round balls and my 50 cal. muzzle loader. I got the Lee .495-182 gr. mold. Will the round balls be OK cast from wheel weights or should I use soft lead? Any pointers as to what it takes to get the round balls to shoot accurately and good is welcomed.

Use pure lead. I need to know more about your rifle before I can make any specific recomendations.

northmn
12-27-2008, 07:45 AM
WW will work for plinking, but is best with a smaller ball and a thick patch. For best accuracy use pure lead. When loaded a ball will show some marking from the rifling and patch. Harder lead won't do that. As a rule I would start out with a .015 patch for the 495 and see if it loads. A patch needs a good lubricant. What constitutes a good lubricant would be a long thread in itself, but you can start with Crisco. If you are going to shoot pretty quick many like spit. Some of the commercial wet lubes that double as cleaners also work. A RB in a 50 commonly likes about 50 grains 3f for starters, and will max out in huntign performance at about 90 grains of 3-f or 100-110 of 2f. Mine is about as good as it can be with 80 grains of 3f. Phoney powders like PDX or 777 use volume equivalents. Right now I have about 2/3 of a yard of material I cut in strips, short start and cut off with a patch knife when loading. Mostly because a yard of patching costs about as much as one little bag of 100 precut patches. The precut patches are OK to find what it likes and offer inexpensive experimentation to see what it likes. Good luck, have fun.

NORTHMN

dk17hmr
12-27-2008, 08:42 AM
I am no RoundBall expert.
I shoot factory Hornady round balls out of my 58 caliber, when I got the rifle the guy gave me 2 full boxes so I havent had to get the mold yet, but I use TC prelubed patchs. I dont remember what thickness they are but they arent extremely tight. If you plan on hunting with patched RB's I would suggest not tight patching them.

After shooting and cleaning, I run JPW down the bore, seems my first shot is always dead nuts and the following 3 or 4 are right in there also.

fishhawk
12-27-2008, 09:49 AM
used WW for my .58 for about 3 years when new it just would not shoot pure lead RB fer diddly squat well after 3 years there abouts it was getting lousy shooting WW went back to pure lead RB and thats been the choice since then and thats been 26-27 years so yes WW will work they will load harder then pure lead. steve k

shooting on a shoestring
12-27-2008, 10:47 AM
Don't worry about WW balls getting hung up in the barrel and not drilling them out. Don't drill any ball in a barrel. Pullers are not the way to do it. That's a quick way to drill a nick in your rifling. Besides, I've never heard of a puller getting a ball out of a barrel.

The proper method is to unscrew the nipple, trickle in about 1/3 to 1/2 of a normal charge (or if you've seated a ball w/o any powder you may only get a few grains in it'll still work, tapping the rifle to vibrate the powder into the barrel, drive the ball back down the barrel until seated, cap fire. Works every time.

Also, round balls in MLs don't obtruate. The patch is the only seal between the ball (which never touches the barrel) and the rifling. If that patch gets cut, accuracy goes out the window. After firing, retrieve your patch which will be about 10 to 20 feet down range from the muzzle. It should have a star patteren on it radiating from the area around the ball. The patch should not be shreaded, but wholly intact. If it is cut, indicates new rifling and/or to tight of a fit. Blown to pieces means to loose. Its a matter of tring different thickness of patch with a particular ball diameter, and then changing the ball diameter and trying it all over again until you find what is acceptable to you.

waksupi
12-27-2008, 12:53 PM
I've used WW's for about 35 years in round ball rifles, and have good luck with them. Accuracy is so close to pure lead, I don't worry about it. I like the extra hardness, for deeper penetration in game. Unlike some, I do see the patch inprint on the balls.
Although Fishhawk probably knows more about this than me, it is not a hard job to remove a WW dry ball with a screw type ball puller.

rugerman1
12-27-2008, 01:04 PM
Although Fishhawk probably knows more about this than me, it is not a hard job to remove a WW dry ball with a screw type ball puller.

http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif

mooman76
12-27-2008, 04:22 PM
I used to shoot WW RB's back before I got pure lead and they will work fine. Pure lead is better but if WWs is all you got then WWs is all you got and they will work. A 495 ball would be a little tighter and since you are using WWs there isn't as much give and you will need a thinner patch. I myself would go with a 490 ball but 495 is doable. I've never been successful at pulling a ball that was stuck. If the ball is a good tight fit like it is suppose to be it could be quite difficult to pull so I just do whatever I need to do to get it all the way in and shoot it out. I do what shooting on a string does if I forget powder and add a few grains and shoot out. They have a CO2 thing that will push it out with air pressure but I have never found a good enough reason to get one! Good shootin !

longbow
12-27-2008, 04:52 PM
I can't add too much here except to say that I have used wheelweight or range scrap round balls successfully. They are harder to short start for sure if you use the same size ball and patch as for pure lead. A smaller ball and thicker patch would likely be better.

If you use same size ball and thinner patch you may get blow by so a card or fiber wad under the ball may help prevent burning through patches.

If your gun has shallow rifling blow by may not be a problem but if it has deep rifling it may be an issue.

Longbow

fishhawk
12-27-2008, 05:01 PM
only reason i would know more about it Waksupi is from watching all you dry ballers do it and say "now why did i do that?" steve k

jack19512
12-28-2008, 09:35 AM
I may not have to worry about shooting round balls at least for a while. I cast some using wheel weights and tried one to see about what size patch I may need and the ball wouldn't even go into the barrel. I measured the ball and it was .5055. Am I missing something here? :confused:

fishhawk
12-28-2008, 10:30 AM
well sure sounds like the ball is to big might be a missmarked mould, for a .50 cal. useing a patched RB should be .490 some like a .495 but i find it to tight a fit i think you need to give lee a call and say whats going on here?! steve k (or you could let Waksupi hammer it down for ya with no powder)

mooman76
12-28-2008, 10:46 AM
Your mould should not be putting out balls that big. Trymoulding some more and make sure the mould is closing al the way when you do it.

northmn
12-28-2008, 11:07 AM
Sounds like a messed up mold. But also remember that pure lead shrinks a little more than WW when casting. Another characteristic of WW is that it will harden over time. Fresh cast WW ball will be less hard than some left over for a year. A lot of smoothbore shooters use WW with good results and I suspect rifles will give more than adequate accuracy with them. Most do not hunt field mice at 100 yards. You will not see WW used by many winners at chunk shoots and X sticks. I really doubt that pure lead would shrink .005 out of that mold to give a 495 ball. I got lucky with a Lee mold in a 30 cal and had one that dropped .314 bullets which was what I needed for a 303 Bitish. Have read others complain about the opposite. I have used Lee molds with good results but now prefer to purchase swaged ball.

Northmn

waksupi
12-28-2008, 12:34 PM
I will point out, if you have to use a short starter to load, you are loading a tighter load than the old timers did.

jack19512
12-28-2008, 12:47 PM
Your mould should not be putting out balls that big. Trymoulding some more and make sure the mould is closing al the way when you do it.





The balls look real good, I cast about 50 of them and they all look the same. I guess I should have got a different mold but at the time my thinking was to match the mold to my caliber. For a 50 cal ML I thought .495 was correct. I'm not sure about the mold casting .5055 though. I have a small amount of pure lead and will cast some using it and see how they come out.

mooman76
12-28-2008, 01:29 PM
495 is not incorrect. Some actually like it better because they get a tighter fit. I like the 490 myself to give me more leway and less chance of getting a ball stuck. I'd get another mould if you don't correct your problem. I bought two lee mould for my BP pistol to see which shot and loaded best. A 457 and a 454. The 457 drops 457-458 and the 454 drops 456-457. Not much help there.

Black Jaque Janaviac
12-30-2008, 01:20 PM
A .495 mold should NOT cast a .5055 ball! Call Lee and have it fixed.

That said, generally speaking a .490 is the common "starting place" for a .50 ball shooter. If you can't get .490 to work people will try .495.

I would recommend pure lead for hunting purposes. There's nothing wrong with WW for plinking, but you won't get much expansion on game.

I've used WW and found they are just more difficult to get started. So I don't bother with WW even for plinking - it's just more hassle than it's worth.

I've used telephone cable sheathing for hunting and did not get much expansion. It was soft lead, but not very pure. I switched to a batch of sewer lead and have since had much better hunting performance. With the harder roundballs I always had pass-through and frequently had long tracking jobs. However since switching to a purer lead source I seldom get total pass-through and the deer drop much quicker.

Some people get concerned with the lack of pass-through as if they might not get sufficient penetration. This should not concern you because the ball doesn't just peeter out right inside the hide. Rather the ball passes all the way through the animal but when it reaches the far hide the elasticity of the hide catches the ball like a first-baseman's mit. I know this because when I walk up on a deer I'll find a large "welt" sticking up in it's hide. The welt is much higher than the flattened ball - it was caused by the ball stretching the hide. The key to the soft-lead performance is the diameter of the wound channel. Much big hole Kemosabee.

The soft-catch principal fools many a hunter. Some will judge even high-powered rifles as in adequate when they recover .30-06 bullets that didn't pass through a deer's neck. It's not that the gun was weak - the deer's neck just "rolled with the punch" so to speak. One guy I know shot a huge buck and they couldn't find the bullet hole. The taxidermist told them he hit the buck right in the nose. Now a .308 bullet should have obliterated a deer's head within 100 yards. Yet there was no visible entry or exit wound. The head had to have flung back with the impact.

ktw
12-30-2008, 01:37 PM
For a 50 cal ML I thought .495 was correct. I'm not sure about the mold casting .5055 though. I have a small amount of pure lead and will cast some using it and see how they come out.

The molds are spec'd to throw .495 in pure lead. If you use wheelweight alloy in them instead they are going to cast larger.

I suspect most people who have success using WW round balls are using the .010 less than nominal ball molds (i.e. .490") rather than the .005 less than nominal (i.e. .495") molds.

-ktw

jack19512
12-30-2008, 04:02 PM
Since I don't have but a small supply of soft lead I think I should just order the .490 mold and be done with it. I looked on Midway's site and it looks like they only carry the Lee .490 and Lee .495 as far as Lee molds go. I am still going to cast some with the soft lead and see how they turn out.

northmn
12-30-2008, 06:44 PM
Before I would buy the molds with a limited supply of lead I would order a couple of boxes of swaged ball. One 490 the other 495 and try both to see which you want. If you do not like one size the pure lead melts and can be cast into what you want. Then if you want order the mold. I am out of pure lead and just shoot swaged ball. By the time I pay for lead and mold I might as well buy the swaged. Thats my thing yours maybe different. A lot of target shooters like the 495 but put up with a little more persuasion to start the ball. Many hunters like the 490 for field use. I like a 495 in my old Montana Barrel, some used to use 500 in the old Douglas. TC's and CVA Traditional rifles seemed to like 490's. These are general rules and likely some will say they used other combo's.

Northmn

fatnhappy
12-31-2008, 12:00 AM
I've used WW's for about 35 years in round ball rifles, and have good luck with them. Accuracy is so close to pure lead, I don't worry about it. I like the extra hardness, for deeper penetration in game. Unlike some, I do see the patch inprint on the balls.
Although Fishhawk probably knows more about this than me, it is not a hard job to remove a WW dry ball with a screw type ball puller.


Not nearly as many years experience as waksupi, (I'm younger and better looking) but I've used WW exclusively for 15 years.

Doug Bowser
12-31-2008, 03:15 AM
I was taught by the olde timers like Charlie Demport and Bill Large that the round ball had to be soft lead, to let the patch engrave it's weave onto the ball for less slippage in the bore. I went to a Jr air rifle National match and the RO gave me a large amount of spent airgun pellets. This is purty soft. I still have 1500 pounds of them. If my shop wasn't on a slab, it probably would have collapsed the floor. I have had good luck with .490" for .50 and .530" for .54.

I also have 1000 pounds of spent .22rf lead bullets. It can be used for BP pistol and rifle loads as is. The .22 rf bullets have a small amount of tin and antimony in the mixture.

I got lucky the other day. A pawn shop was closing it;s doors and he had 15 boxes of Speer round balls in .535" for $3.00 per box of 100.. They do well with TC pre-lubed patches in my TC Hawken .54 with 1 in 66" twist. The rifle stacks them at 50 yards. I won't have to mould any .54 round balls for a long time.

northmn
12-31-2008, 09:32 AM
A few points. Waksupi mentioned that he does not use a short starter, which implies a looser load than a target load. When hunting with a ML you really do not need a load good for field mice at 100 yards. WW in a large bore (54 and over) are going to be fairly effective due to the fact that bore diameter is already efficient. Also big bores tend to be loaded at a little less MV than the smaller ones which my effect mushrooming anyway. Many of the smoothbore shooters using 20 ga use WW as it is cheap and as accurate as Pure lead. They get little expansion with either. I have heard mention that shoulder shots were common in the old days to break them down and eliminate tracking. Shoulder shots with low velocity are not quite as nasty with slow bullets as with modern HV combos. Matter of technique and philosophy. I would not hesitate to use WW in my 58 if they shot well, but as stated I purchase swaged ball.

Northmn

Doug Bowser
12-31-2008, 12:22 PM
Our club has a CO2 ball remover. If you forget the powder, you press this contraption on the nipple or vent and pull the trigger. The ball is shot out of the barrel. I have not had any trouble removing balls that are stuck halfway down the bore. It seems to do the job well. We bought ours at Bass Pro Shop. Removing the nipple and trickling BP into the chamber also works but not as well with substitutes (In my opinion)

waksupi
12-31-2008, 12:31 PM
I would add, although I don't use a short starter, I do have strong hands, and am able to start the ball with my thumb, still getting the imprint of the patch on the WW ball.

ktw
12-31-2008, 01:34 PM
...able to start the ball with my thumb, still getting the imprint of the patch on the WW ball.

Haven't had any accuracy issues with the imprint of your thumb embeded in the top of the ball? :-D

Us girliman easterners with weak handshakes would be concerned about the possibility of breaking a nail with that method. :wink:

-ktw

northmn
12-31-2008, 03:28 PM
There are several factors that permits seating the ball. Crowning is a big one. I built a kit for an individual that had a Getz barrel with a coned muzzle that permits loading without a short starter. Even so a plain crowned barrel can permit loading without a short starter if done correctly. Target shooters load combos that require a very hard hit on the shortstarter to seat a ball. Accuracy is relative. Looser loads out of good barrels tend to shoot pretty good, the issue comes in if you are shooting against very serious competitors off bench, chunk or X sticks. Some of these matches get won on X"s not just scores of 50. Soft lead shows cloth imprint and rifling indentation on target loads. Some rifles use a false muzzle to permit tighter laoding. I no longer load that tight as it wears one down and I do not shoot competition anymore. Off hand "primitive" shooting permits looser loading also. WW could have advantages in hunting, especially on game larger than deer. It doesn't hurt to cast lead ball with about one half percent of tin to make it flow which could possibly harden it.

Northmn

mooman76
12-31-2008, 09:10 PM
I was taught by the olde timers like Charlie Demport and Bill Large that the round ball had to be soft lead, to let the patch engrave it's weave onto the ball for less slippage in the bore.

I was taught that too and it's in almost every BP book you read but when you don't have soft lead, you don't have soft lead so I used WW's and they work well. I haven't done any drastic tests but if they shoot good, they shoot good and you can't use what you don't have.

Hang Fire
01-02-2009, 03:27 PM
I may not have to worry about shooting round balls at least for a while. I cast some using wheel weights and tried one to see about what size patch I may need and the ball wouldn't even go into the barrel. I measured the ball and it was .5055. Am I missing something here? :confused:


WW will cast larger than soft lead from any given mould.

jack19512
01-03-2009, 10:26 PM
I got to cast some pure lead balls today. They measured .497 and would go down the barrel OK but there's no room for a patch. I guess I just ordered the wrong mold to start with. I'm not sure now what you would use a .495 round ball mold for. Would you use it for a 54 cal ML?

big boar
01-04-2009, 12:31 AM
I've used .495 balls in an older front stuffer with good results. I wouldn't think a .497 ball would be a problem if you used a thin patch (.015?) and used a good patch lube. 50/50 Murphy oil soap and Neatsfoot oil is excellent+++.

big boar
01-04-2009, 12:38 AM
By the way, if you find yourself with big balls and have a 45/70 you're in luck. I push them through Lee sizer, anything from a .457-.460 and load them over a small charge of shotgun powder. I use about 8 gr 700X and use them as plinking loads. Out to 50 yds they shoot great and can be used for small game. Just seat them flush and smear some lube over the end. Almost no recoil and quiet.

mooman76
01-04-2009, 12:42 AM
Big boar said it. Some find that as their favorite old ML gets older and has more wear and shooting starts to drop off they can switch to a bigger ball or thicker patch to help keep it shooting better. Also some rifles may be a tad bigger to start with.

waksupi
01-04-2009, 04:00 AM
When you are fitting a ball to a ML, start with the patch. Forget the commercial thin pre-cut crap they sell. Find some regular old striped pillow ticking, and use this. Walmart usually has it on hand. Wash it a few times to get the sizing out before using.

Jim
01-04-2009, 08:49 AM
.....Also, round balls in MLs don't obtruate.....

With all due respect, I beg your pardon. They most certainly do.

northmn
01-04-2009, 09:34 AM
.497 is likely within specs for a mold. For a tightly patched RB you need a good short starter. Many like Waksupi, have good results without but use a different combination. Also muzzle configuaration can make a difference. As I stated before chek your crowning. Some take a RB and a pice of fine sand paper and polish the crown to expedite loading. I have used a V shaped grinder in a Dremmel with good results, but take extra care to get things square. I have some old worn out Columbia canvas shirts that make good patching. Cotton muslin also makes a good thinner patching. On some of this stuff you can buy a half yard cheaper than a package of precut. I buy both patching and heavy flannel for cleanning in a fabric store. May last purchase of flannel was 4.99/yard. Compare that to a bag of cleaning patches at 12.00 like I have seen.

Northmn

shdwlkr
01-27-2009, 12:30 PM
I use ww but mine seem to be fairly soft lead as I can engrave my finger nail in it. One thing to remember is that ww lead comes in all forms of hardness depending on when it was made . the older the ww lead is the harder it seems to be. At least from what I have found.

home in oz
01-27-2009, 02:12 PM
I used to shoot lots of WW thru a 45 cal muzzleloader.

It worked just great for squirrels and rabbits. Did not use it on anything bigger.

Tried round balls in my 54, and they shot so high, that I went to a conical, which has shot to point of aim, good groups, good for deer. Have shot a few limits of squirrels too, on days when the deer did not show.

Charlie Sometimes
01-27-2009, 08:31 PM
+1 to Shooting On A Shoestring's answer.

I've used WW with no problems for years in several calibers.
WW bullets are lighter than lead.
Pure lead is hard to come by for me- WW are for the taking.
Now, for Maxi's or REAL bullets, pure lead is a must.
I have had to pull an occasional ball, but has not happened in years- it's not easy no matter what the alloy.
The powder throught the niple works too.
Those new CO2 powered unloaders would be my choice now if you have one stuck.

Here is a link to find out various alloy weight changes-

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm