Fire Lapping

[joeb33050]

I need a description of fire-lapping the barrel-frame restriction out of a revolver, and removing the restriction where a sling swivel base is swaged on a rifle barrel--ruger tropical etc..
This for the book.
Can somebody who's done it help?
Thanks;
joe b.

[Char-Gar]

What sorta problems are being caused by you concerns? Has a real problem manifested in your shooting or you just worried about the theory/possibility that these "constriction" are a concern?

[grumble]

joeb, Chargar's right -- don't fix a non-existant problem. But, if there actually IS a problem, I'd advise against fire lapping to remove a localized constriction.

Hand lapping allows you to concentrate on the affected area without messing up the rest of the barrel, particularly the throat. I've opened up constrictions on a number of barrels this way. Lemme know if you'd like some particulars.

[joeb33050]

I need the info on HOW to put in the CBA book. A number of folks have posted that they did it, I need a detailed description of HOW.
Thanks;
joe b.

[Char-Gar]

Joe B. What we are trying to say in a round about way is laping fire or otherwise is used to cure a problem. Laping, when it is not needed, is not a good idea. It is popular for folks to want to lap a perfectly good barrel, just because they read somewhere that it needs to be done. In the words of Cab Calloway..."It ain't necessarily so".

Fire laping can be a particular problem for folks who shoot cast bullets as it takes metal off the entire length of the barrel during it's passage. It removes metal from places we don't want metal removed.

The so called constriction where a sixgun barrel enter the frame are real. However the damage they do to accuracy is mostly hype. Yes, I have read Veral Smiths book and don't buy much of what he says in that regard. My experience is based on 45 years of shooting cast bullets down sixgun barrels.

For folks who feel they just must fire lap a barrel, instructions come with the supplies and stuff to do that.

[fourarmed]

Joe, I've been doing it to my Ruger BH .45 colt. It leads badly just in front of the throat. Careful slugging showed that there is a constriction at the rear of the barrel and at the muzzle. Much looser between.

I smear a little Clover 240 grit on a ceramic tile. Then I take a second one and roll a dead soft boolit between them until the driving bands are embedded with the abrasive. I load six of them with a very light load - just a few grains of 700x in my case. I fire them, clean the bore thoroughly, and slug again. So far I have fired 30 of them, and it's hard to tell if it has done anything. A few tenths (of a thousandth) at the breech end - maybe. It's a very slow business, and so far I can't say it has really improved the leading problem.

[joeb33050]

Here's the deal. I know very little about revolvers. My M29 44 Magnum S&W, with 4X Simmons scope, for ALL loads shot-including some BAD loads-from Dec 04 to May 05, from the bench, at 50 yards, Averaged 3.548" for 6 shots and 2.466" for the "best 5 shots".
I can reliably shoot 6 shot averages under 3", and "best 5 shot" averages under 2 1/2". It took a while to get there.
There are shooters on this forum and on the CB-L forum who can shoot 4" 100 yard 6 shot groups(CB-L) and 1" 50 yard 6 shot groups (here).
My understanding is that one of the tricks employed to get from where I am to where they are is to slug bore and chamber, and remove the restriction at the frame/barrel joint.
I read that S&W, Ruger and Freedom Arms revolvers almost all have a restriction as much as .005" at this joint, caused by the barrel attaching pressure/force.
So, if you want to shoot 3" 6 shot 50 yard groups, it can be done without removing the constriction. For better groups.......
There's enough written about lapping or fire lapping out the constriction to suggest that it does work.
So, I want to put it in the book. With the appropriate caveats.
And I need a description of HOW, from somebody who's done it successfully.
I fear lapping, my experiences are failures.
I have fire lapped rifle barrels with great results.
Help!!
joe b.

[Bass Ackward]

Joe,

I can throw something together for ya if you'll edit it. You can see from my writting here that it will be .... lacking.

What kind of deadline are we talking?

[joeb33050]

Bass;
How about a month, or until Valentine's day?
We need to know about how many bullets with what size grit it takes to get rid of how much restriction.
I've read about rifles, Ruger #1s in particular, having barrel restrictions where the front sight or sling swivel mounts are pressed onto the barrel; never read about anyone removing these restrictions.
Thanks;
joe b..

[Bass Ackward]

Bass;
How about a month, or until Valentine's day?
We need to know about how many bullets with what size grit it takes to get rid of how much restriction.
I've read about rifles, Ruger #1s in particular, having barrel restrictions where the front sight or sling swivel mounts are pressed onto the barrel; never read about anyone removing these restrictions.
Thanks;
joe b..


Joe,

That is not a problem. Just keep using the PM here so I don't forget. Any model Ruger that has the front sight band can have a constriction but doesn't necessarily have to. And even if it doesn't have a constriction they could have heated the steel so badly that it becomes scaled. I had that on a 77-44.

A rough outline:

Lapping in general.
The options available to fire lap using cast and jacketed including commercial sources.
How to plan to use lapping to solve a problem without creating others.
Tricks to the process.
Dos and don'ts.

[joeb33050]

Bass;
Sounds good to me.
Thanks;
joe b.

[Bret4207]

IIRC- the cast slug only hits the tight spots, a jacketed slug hits the whole barrel, or so the theory goes. I have used it on a very pitted and rough barrel in a 7MM Mauser. IIRC I used 5 jacketed with 320 grit carbide powder, then followed with 10 cast with the same 320 on 5 followed by 600 on 5. All loads were loaded for very slow speed, around 350-400 fps. It did smooth the barrel quite a lot. I ended up hand lapping it quite a bit too as there was a real mess in the middle of the barrel.

I think it works, but it's kind of like handing a 7" Milwaukee grinder with a 36 grit disc on it to a 10 year old and telling him to just knock the slag off a weld. No telling what you'll get!

JoeB- I've been putting off sending in my CBA membership form. Does it still come with your first book?

[Char-Gar]

Bass...You would think Ruger would break the code on how to solder ramps, bands and such. I have had to send three back for new barrels as you can't remove that heatd scale stuff. The last was an NIB Old Army with scale where there soldered on the front sight and another small patch where they attatched the loading leaver stud to the barrel.

They have always replaced the barrels with no fuss, but this must get costly for them.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass...You would think Ruger would break the code on how to solder ramps, bands and such. I have had to send three back for new barrels as you can't remove that heatd scale stuff. The last was an NIB Old Army with scale where there soldered on the front sight and another small patch where they attatched the loading leaver stud to the barrel.

They have always replaced the barrels with no fuss, but this must get costly for them.


Chargar,

Absolutely. I would say that at least 20% of Ruger products that require soldering are affected to some degree. Maybe 5% are bad enough to see with the naked eye. Makes em tough to use especially for lead.

Been that way for over 40 years that I know of.

[joeb33050]

JoeB- I've been putting off sending in my CBA membership form. Does it still come with your first book?

I think so, yes.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Chargar,

Absolutely. I would say that at least 20% of Ruger products that require soldering are affected to some degree. Maybe 5% are bad enough to see with the naked eye. Makes em tough to use especially for lead.

Been that way for over 40 years that I know of.


I'm not getting this. Are you saying that Ruger solders sights, sling swivels to barrels, and leaves SCALE??? inside the barrel? How can this be true?
I undestood that the front sight and sling swivel base were pressed on, ex: Ruger #`1 Tropical. Wrong?
How and why would they get the barrel that hot?
joe b.

[Bass Ackward]

I'm not getting this. Are you saying that Ruger solders sights, sling swivels to barrels, and leaves SCALE??? inside the barrel? How can this be true?
I undestood that the front sight and sling swivel base were pressed on, ex: Ruger #`1 Tropical. Wrong?
How and why would they get the barrel that hot?
joe b.


Joe,

How can it be true? Sad huh.

I can't tell you how the sights and slign swivels are put on. I can tell you what keeps them on. And if it doesn't have a screw through it somewhere, it's soldered.

You need heat to apply the solder. The thinner the barrel, the easier it is to over heat and scale. But the thicker the barrel the more heat it takes to melt solder. So the tendency of human nature involving work is to get bored / impatient and crank up the heat. Break time is coming!

[44man]

I have fire lapped my Ruger. It is an older stainless 10" barreled gun, one of the first made for silhouette and had a very tight spot at the barrel-frame junction. It removed the restriction and the gun has won many shoots including Ohio State years ago. I hit 79 out of 80 targets. I now have about 57,000 heavy loads out of it and untold light loads. It will still shoot an inch at 50 yd's and I hit pop cans at 100 yd's. I used Veral's compound and instructions.
One thing I always worried about is that the boolit has to go through the throats first and how much do they open the throats? If they are oversize to start with, would they get enlarged too much?
I have thought about wrapping the boolits in a thin paper patch of cigarette paper for throat protection. It should shear off and maybe burn up at the forcing cone. Of course the barrel would have to be inspected after every shot to make sure it is clear and it would pay to wipe it out.
The boolit does all it's cutting in the back of the bore and less and less as it travels down the barrel as the grit degrades.
I then shot a lot of jacketed bullets from my gun for competition and anytime I shot lead there was no leading in the bore. I shoot all lead boolits now and never get any lead out of the barrel.
I never had a problem with the S&W 29's. All I owned would hold 1/2" groups at 50 yd's with the XTP bullets from Creedmore. The problem with the Smith is they are grip sensitive and putting down the gun between groups and then picking it up for the next shots will move the group as much as 10" at the target. Still 1/2" groups but they never won any silhouette shoots because of this. They only seem to shoot good from offhand.
The bottom line is that I would not be afraid to fire lap a barrel that has a problem.

[Ol'Scudder]

Joe B., here's a link to a pretty extensive and well documented test performed by Marshall Stanton, owner of Beartooth Bullets, in 2001. Not only does this test
prove the validity of firelapping barrels, at least in this case, but it's also relavent to the ongoing Ballard vs Micro-groove rifling argument. Hope you find this useful.

regards. o's

http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

[joeb33050]

Bass...You would think Ruger would break the code on how to solder ramps, bands and such. I have had to send three back for new barrels as you can't remove that heatd scale stuff. The last was an NIB Old Army with scale where there soldered on the front sight and another small patch where they attatched the loading leaver stud to the barrel.

They have always replaced the barrels with no fuss, but this must get costly for them.
Please tell me your name, I want to put this post in the Bullet Fit article.
Thanks;
joe b.

[lovedogs]

I have a stainless SBH that has this same restriction where the bbl. screws through the frame, typical of Rugers from what I hear. Before lapping the bbl. I wanted more info so I called and talked to people who make those kits to do the job. I only found one who would go into detail with me. Then I talked to a few knowledgeable individuals on this same topic. It seems to be a viable solution for some guns. The problem with mine is that stainless steel Ruger uses. It's really hard! The one kit supplier who would go into detail advised against using the fire lapping method on Ruger stainless guns. He claimed that on regular chrome moly it works great and does the job in just a few shots. But he's done his research and tried it on stainless. He claims it sometimes takes over 100 shots with gritty bullets to finish a stainless bbl. Part of the problem there is that upon firing that grit gets into everything and the gun should be thoroughly cleaned every cylinder-full to avoid grinding up the workings of your gun. A few shots wouldn't do much damage, but 100 or so rounds surely would. He advised against fire lapping stainless guns and I thought that was good of him... he was honest and would rather not sell his kit than ruin your gun. I've found that a little use of some Chore Boy pot scrubber wrapped around a worn brush will remove a lot of lead in a hurry and the copper won't harm your bore at all. I'm still playing with various alloys and gas checks to see if I can lessen the leading caused by the Ruger tight spot. If anyone has any advise I'm all ears!

[lovedogs]

Hey, Grumble... Lovedogs here. I'd like specifics on how to lap just the constriction in the bbl. of my stainless SBH. Appreciate it!

[grumble]

Hey, Grumble... Lovedogs here. I'd like specifics on how to lap just the constriction in the bbl. of my stainless SBH. Appreciate it!

Not too complicated, LD. Use a one piece steel cleaning rod with a cleaning jag a bit too small for the bore. Use a couple patches made of some soft material, like an old tee shirt, to make some padding. Use a strong material to make the patch that holds the lapping compound, like the legs from an old pair of blue jeans.

Start with a pretty rough grit of lapping compound, like 220 or 260. Impregnate the blue jean patch with the compound, put it over the 'padding' patches, and force it into the bore. It needs to be a very tight, compressed fit. Don't lap much on spots that aren't constricted (you can feel it where the barrel tightens up). Work the tight spots well until you feel them loosen up some. As you push the rod back and forth, vary the length of strokes so you don't wear a circular groove in the same place in the barrel. Quit as soon as you feel it opening the constriction(s).

Clean out the barrel. Replace the patches and repeat with a finer lapping compound, like 320 or so. Then again with 400 grit. Beyond 400, you're probably reaching the point of diminishing returns. With the last grit you use, be sure to "feather" the laps and then make several (say, 10-20) full length strokes so the entire barrel is uniformly lapped. Pay special attention to the smoothness of the strokes; you can feel any roughness or tight spots.

Clean everything up and inspect it under a bright light to make sure you haven't missed anything. You're ready to shoot.

[lovedogs]

Thanks grumble. I may have to try this some day when I get the time and some grit. I sure wish some of these manufacturers would do things right so we wouldn't have to "finish" their products before they can give good service. As much as they cost nowadays you'd think they'd have some sort of quality to them.

[MGySgt]

Lovedogs - I have a Ruger SBH SS and I did fire lap mine in accordance with Veral's product and procedure.

Shots - 60, there is a very small constriction left, when you push a push through slug through from the front, it just hesitates a little at the frame. If you push too fast you won't even feel it.

Results - mirror bore, light leading with my 285 gr PB SWC. NO leading with any of my GCed bullets.

It did open up the chambers/throats about .0015. The bore is just over .430 and the cylinder is just under .432

Accuracy improvement - you betcha!

Would I do it again - you betcha!

Yes it is nerve racking when you take a gun you paid $400 for and then sent it off and had another $350 plus put into it (Bowen Custom Classic Action Job) and then to intentionally shoot sand paper through it!

My wife thought I was crazy - but said she would only complain if I ruined that one and bought another one to try the same thing with it!

Yea, I know I should have fire lapped it BEFORE I sent it to Bownen, But I never said I was smart!

Drew

[Char-Gar]

my name is Charles Graff

[Char-Gar]

I have cured several chronic leaders (sixguns) without resorting to laping of any kind.

I started with a K-38 that just wouldn't respond to any traditional ways of jacking with alloys, pressure, and lube to cure the leading. I was about ready to trade it off, but just could not brings my self to do so. Until the lead built up, it was so accurate it was scary. The barrel was just rough with machine hickies. You couldn't see them, but they had to be there.

I loaded 200 rns of jacketed bullets at full snort pressure and fired them as fast and I could load and shoot. No attempt was made to hit anything. I then droped the cylinder out, and wearing gloves (the pistol was HOT), I took a new bronze brush and Shooters choice and gave the barrel 200 fore and after stroked.

Back at the house, I used a tight patch and some JB Paste to remove any metal fouling remaining and there was none.

I then used very tight patchs and Semi-Chrome metal polish and worked on the bore for at least a half hour. I did it until my arms felt like t hey were going to fall off.

A clean up and that was that. The bore is mirror bright and just won't lead. It is also very easy and quick to clean. Accuracy if anything was improved a mite.

Talk about your constrictions where the barrel screwed into the frame? They were there and as easy to see as a rat turd in the sugar bowl. However, they did no harm at all. The bullet has plenty of time to recover from any damage after they pass over that short stretch of the barrel.

If is for this reason, I doubt the so called negative effects of frame/barrel constrictions in sixguns. I have done this on 15 to 20 other sixguns and the results are always the same. The leading stops, the accuracy picks up, and the constrictions are still there and very evident. There are no changes in handgun dimensions like there is when a barrel is lapped.

I did not invent the above method, but read it in some gun magazine, but I don't remember which, when and who wrote it.