1:28 twist round ball load?

[BigFatKen]

My new rifle says round balls will not shoot accuractly. It stresses magnum loads of 2 or 3 pellets up to 150 grains. I have some loose 777 and balls.

Can anyone recommend a light load? I was thinking 30 grains. Do I weigh this or measure it? Thank you.

[Buckshot]

...............Velocity will mitigate being overspun to a degree. The only danger with putting in too small a charge is maybe a stuck ball. 777 is pretty hot stuff. You could surely start with 30 grs and after seeing how that sounds and works maybe drop to 25 and then 20grs.

The thing is, a slug is either stabilized or it isn't. There is no such thing as being 'Over stabilized'. The problem with too much spin is that it accentuates any irregularities in the projectile. If the RB's are swaged and shot at low charges they may do fine. The rifle manufacturer may be wanting to warn people away from considering RBs with those honker hunting type loads.

Remember too that a patched RB doesn't have a ton of surface engraved and the fast twist may not do good things, patch or not. You don't say what caliber your rifle is but a better plinker boolit would be the Lee REAL slug. They come in 1 and 2 cavity moulds, and are very simple to cast.

That 28" twist is about 3 times that needed for a PRB.

..................Buckshot

[DwarvenChef]

1-28 sounds like an in-line and they are designed for sabot shooting. If you want to use PRB find a good side lock. I don't know of anyone making PRB tubes for in-lines yet, but that may be the next wave.

[BigFatKen]

It is .50 cal in-line. I did not say inline as so many people look down at them.

209 ignition

[krag35]

2 years ago I had a Knight 50 cal inline. I "think" it shot OK w/ 50 gr. of pyrodex and RB. I have tried to forget that whole rifle experiance. :-) I know it shot Hornaday buffalo bullets w/ 90 grains just fine.

BP is measured by volume.

krag35

[Maven]

BFK, Bore quality and patch fit (thickness) may be almost as important as a fast twist when shooting patched RB's at low - moderate velocity. Since you can't easily modify the first, why not experiment with different patch thicknesses? Your targets will indicate which one is best.

[RugerFan]

The problem with shooting patched round balls out of a fast twist barrel is having the patch get cut up (at least if you're pushing them too fast). I don't think I'd go below 50 grains. Try .429 round balls in a sabot and see how they shoot. I have a .429 RB mold and plan on this experiment before too long.

[BigFatKen]

I'll try the 30, 25, 20 gr load and see how thick a patch I can use. The will be for practice only.

[BigFatKen]

My booklet says a min. load of 50 gr and the heavier, longer bullets. One responder recommends to follow book and not go below 50 gr. Another says 777 is hot and use 20-30 with RBs.

The time I hunt with it will be turkey season.

Any more discussion?

[shooter575]

I'll try the 30, 25, 20 gr load and see how thick a patch I can use. The will be for practice only.

This is the right approch. Got to play around with it.In a buddys Scout carbine with a fast twist he could not get sabots to work worth a damm.On a lark we tried some Lee .50 "ashcan" minnes.Had a 3' group at 50 whithin 10 rounds.
On thing this BB shows is the "book" is not allways right M/L are sorta like women.Lots of them look good,But they are diffrent

[BigFatKen]

I'll play around with it.

[Teach]

I believe you're chasing a pipe dream, trying to make that inline shoot round balls. I bought a nice Hawken-style sidelock percussion rifle on Gunbroker for less than $100.00. It's got a 1:48 twist, which will just stabilize a conical, and still gives good results with patched round balls. That fast-twist inline will be mediocre at best with round stuff, and you'll be limited to very low-velocity loads. My Hawken shoots well with 70 grain/equivalents of Pyrodex "P" behind a roundball, with 2" groups at 75 yards. With the triple-7, you'll be able to reduce your powder charge a little, IMHO. Real BP can be weighed, while synthetics MUST be measured by a volume-equivalent to the corresponding weighed chazrge of BP.
Jerry

[BigFatKen]

thank you. I suppected BP could be weighted as I read "3 3/4 drams equ" on shotshells. It had to come from somewhere.

[BigFatKen]

I have some loose 777 and balls.

Thank you.

The purpose of this this thread was to use the $10 in balls I own. I will make fishing sinkers if I cannot shoot them. I know the "power belts" boolits cost half a buck, but I will not need many.

I am not going to chase a $69.95 rifle that will extend my deer hunting into something I did not intend.

Perhaps, if I find this a fun sport, I will pursue a RB shooter someday.

Thanks again, 'nough said.

[Throckmorton]

Perhaps?? if u find this a fun sport???

PERHAPS?????? :)

givei it a chance it'll grow on ya. :)

[JohnH]

FWIW, I've shot a fair amount of RB from my 209x50 Encore. Using 490 ball and .015 patches with charges of Pyrodex from 20-30 grains, it will keep 'em in a 4" circle at 50 yards. Good as I can see and hold off hand. I didn't find the 777 to be quite as friendly at these low charges. Twist is the typical 1-28.

This barrel does like the Knight 50/44 sabot, the Lee 429-310-RF and 110 grains of Pyrodex. Not a load I want to shoot all the time but it shoots better than I can see. These days my eyes are the limiting factor of my shooting ability.

Interesting how the inlines are at once dispised and at the same time have come to dominate muzzleloading hunting. According to Toby Bridges in his book "Advanced Black Powder Hunting" during the 80's and 90's when every other state was experienceing a boom in muzzle loading hunting, Pennsylvania experienced a loss of it's muzzleloaidng hunters by about 1/2. Bridges makes a pretty strong case that most muzzle loading hunters are not interested in tradition, they want to bring home venison, and the modern muzzleloader increases their chamces of doing so. It is also interesting to note that this year Pennsylvania is allowing use of sabots and caps in muzzleloaders as opposed to the required use of patched ball and flintlocks as was required in past. Seems that even the hardiest cannot deny the direction the wind blows.

Take no shame in that inline, had the full spectrum of the technology been available 200 years ago, our ancestors would have embraced it whole heartedly. They whole heartedly embraced percussion caps, cartridge guns, repeaters, smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. They even strapped scopes to their muzzle loaders during and prior to the War of Northern Aggression.

Your owning and using an inline is as much an honoring of our ancestors desire to improve their lives and the things in it as taking a Hawken out hunting is an honoring of the tools and methods our ancestors used. Both are valid expressions of the human trait of toolmaking and survival. While the bow and arrow are arguably a better weapon than the matchlocks that first arrived on these shores, it wasn't arrowheads the Indians knocked themselves out to trade for.

[versifier]

I think it is two classes of shooters that tend to disparrage in lines, casters (who find the twist rates limiting) and traditionalists (who have more reasons than there'd be room for in several threads). While I do not own an in-line, I hunt with more than a few who do. My personal peeve with them is that they only come in .50cal, which I consider to be a one-size-fits-all compromise. I can buy drop-ins for my Renegade from .32 up to .58 in twist rates optimum for my chosen projectiles for very reasonable cost. Hunters who aren't particularly interested in target shooting and only have a m/l to extend deer season have nothing to be ashamed of - I started into it that way myself. But if you are an experimenter, your natural curiosity is going to drive you to try new combinations and the limitations on an in-line will soon become apparent.

[BigFatKen]

I had a H & R, I believe, break open .45 M/L #11 caps, in 1978 when Wisconsin started to have a season. It started out as a chance for traditionist M/L to practice their sport on deer in October. When the deer population exploded, this was changed to be an extra harvest tool. With the wasting disease, many hunters are going back to just hunting big bucks and letting the does go.

This has led to a disaster in the deer population. In Wis alone, deer kill about seven people each year by getting in the way of their cars and people kill about 44,000 with cars; about the archery kill.

I never had any training with .45 M/L and when it was lost in a theft, I never replaced it until just now. Thirty years later, it cost about the same. I'll see how I like it and let Ya'll know in a week or two.

I am trying to lose weight so I thought if I see it in print, it can't hurt. Keeping away from the 160 calorie beer can is a tuff one 'tho.
BFK

[RugerFan]

I think it is two classes of shooters that tend to disparrage in lines, casters (who find the twist rates limiting) and traditionalists (who have more reasons than there'd be room for in several threads). While I do not own an in-line, I hunt with more than a few who do. My personal peeve with them is that they only come in .50cal, which I consider to be a one-size-fits-all compromise. I can buy drop-ins for my Renegade from .32 up to .58 in twist rates optimum for my chosen projectiles for very reasonable cost. Hunters who aren't particularly interested in target shooting and only have a m/l to extend deer season have nothing to be ashamed of - I started into it that way myself. But if you are an experimenter, your natural curiosity is going to drive you to try new combinations and the limitations on an in-line will soon become apparent.

Actually there are plenty of inlines that come in .45 cal as well. Knight even makes a .52 cal inline.

http://www.knightrifles.com/catalog.aspx?catid=Muzzleloaders

[versifier]

Yes, I know there are a few of them made, I was generalizing. (My buddy has two of those old H&R's and loves them. The first m/l you could use in the rain and still be sure of it going off.) You really have to look for a non-.50, though, they're not exactly a WallyWorld option. Now, maybe if the Encore was also available in .36, .45, and .54, I could have my cake and eat it too. And as long as I'm dreaming, a .36 Contender carbine would be a lot of fun.... Are you listening Fox Ridge? :hijack: Sorry! :smile:

[fiberoptik]

I'd like them to come back with the TC System 1. It had a .50/.32/12ga. barrel available for it. THAT'S what I'd like. An inline .32!!

[JohnH]

I'd like them to come back with the TC System 1. It had a .50/.32/12ga. barrel available for it. THAT'S what I'd like. An inline .32!!

Go to www.hpmuzzleloading.com Green Mountain Barrels has made a run of these, just what you are looking for.

[jh45gun]

There used to be a few made in 54 but not as many now since the industry is trying to push the 50's and the 45's

[BigFatKen]

Take no shame in that inline, had the full spectrum of the technology been available 200 years ago, our ancestors would have embraced it whole heartedly. They whole heartedly embraced percussion caps, cartridge guns, repeaters, smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. They even strapped scopes to their muzzle loaders during and prior to the War of Northern Aggression.

I heard that there were some monster rifles used. I read a story where a Union Captain was shot while sitting in a chair. His second took his place and ordered a sweep for an enemy who must be nearby with a silenced weapon. Then the Leutenandt (spelling?) was hit and it turns out it was a man 2 1/4 miles away.

Troops went after him, but no one stopped moving for a while.

Could this be a true story?

[JohnH]

2 1/4 Miles????!!! 600 yards was more like the average sniping range in those days. Officers were (still are I imagine) the desired target, and most were targets of opportunity rather than a specific target. I've not heard of such a shot as in your story, an extra long barrel would have the effect of silencing the rifle, and I would expect that to be something more at the root of a silent sniper in those daysthough again, I know of no specific storys. There were Whitworth rifles being used for 1000 yard match shooting at the time, and this was a favorite rifle of the Boys in Gray practicing their talent on bule uniforms. Wouldn't be surprised to find out it was used on both sides.

[shooter575]

There were many such stories of such from the Civil War. Here is a link to some info on the shooting of union Gen Sedgewick. Another account I read was of a union unit getting sniped at by a Reb in a tree at some long range.One of the fellas cut a piece of wood as a rear sight extention on his standard Springfield and started pluging away. Another with a pair of field glases watched the reb. When the reb looked up the tree at the minne crashing through The Yank would snip the stick a bit shorter and go again.I seem to recall this went on for a couple days.Another strange thing to us is markmanship was not taught.They were taught by the numbers to load and fire.3 rounds a minute.
A Enfield rifled musket sights go to 800 yd.Springfields depending on model 500-1000 yd. OK for shooting at company sized formations in close order. Hiting the individual your aiming at past 200 yd were not too common

http://www.sedgwick.org/na/families...jaminm1841.html

[BigFatKen]

I remember these weapons were called "fort guns" or such. and weighted 120 pounds in the story. I read it was to shoot a very heavy boolit.

The records of Custer's Last Stand show one of the Generals was a half mile away when a lucky shot hit his aide in the head, throwing brain matter onto his tunic. He was then slow to re-inforce.

[shooter575]

Wall or rampart gun.Most had a swivel sorta like a oar lock on them to mount into a wall.I have seen a couple that were breechloaders with a inch or so bore.They were not used much in the states.Ones I saw had Liege proofs.
I have seen a few Civil War usage civilian target M/L.Bored out to .58 Some has spirit level sights.False muzzle,seen a pic of one with a scope.Big ol 1 1/8 of 1 1/4 octagon barrels.I held two of them 15-16 lb. Many of this type were used early in the war by Yankee sharpshooting units till they got Sharps rifles.

[waksupi]

I recall a War between the States story, about a Union snipe at near a mile, using elongated projectiles. The rifle was set up on a mechanical benchrest, and the engineers did the calculations. I seen to recall it took them a day and a half of triangulation to get the shot layed right.

[BigFatKen]

that helps.

[BigFatKen]

While not of the era previously discussed, there were long range tests up to 3500 yards with various rifles. Here is the link


http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm

[BigFatKen]

I cannot find where any turkey rifle is legal in Alabama. What I saw concerns "muzeloading pistols". I did not notice this.

Well, it will be a fine deer shooter come November.

[Larry Gibson]

Below is an edited post; I apologize for the incorrect data of the first post as I was working off memory. As I was driving home last night I got to thinking and thought I had confused my test reults with the REAL Lee bullet instead of the RBs. I checked my data last night and I was correct, i.e. I used the wrong data. Again my apologies. Below is the edited post with the correct data.

Larry Gibson


However you can't push them too fast. I did considerable work with RBs in my TC Black Mountain Magnum .50 with 1-28" twist. The BM, while a side lock instead of inline, is on par with most inlines today. It is made for 150 gr cahrges under a 300 gr saboted bullet.

I was using .490 RBs (180 gr) and a .018" pillow ticking patch lubed with Bore Butter. I started out at 50 yards and found that 90 gr (V) of FFG triple 7 (Started working up from 50 gr (V) in 10 gr increments) would run 1895 fps and stay in a nice 2" 5 shot group. I thought "eureka!" and moved the target to 100 yards. The next 5 shot goup was around 18"!!! Went back to 50 yards and repeated (sometimes I'm a hard learner) the test and it was the same. Obviously some where passed 50 yards the RB was "losing it".

I left the target at 100 yards and started backing off the charge in 5 gr (V) increments. I got it down to 3-4" 5 shot groups real quick. What I found was that RBs will shoot fine in 1-28 twist but not over 1800 fps. I found that 80 gr of tripple 7 FFG was an excellent load giving consistant 3" groups at 100 yards with 5 shot groups and generally one ragged hole at 50 yards. They run 1785 fps. RBs in these faster twist rifles make a fun plinking or small game load but I don't hunt deer with them as a 350 gr Maxi-Ball is much better.

Larry Gibson

[BigFatKen]

thank you. I will try this