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Blackwater
12-21-2008, 11:45 PM
One of my favorite "gun books" is Harvey Donaldson's "Yours Truly, Harvey Donaldson." One of the things he discusses in it is his very favorable results using graphite wads in the .220 Swift, among other calibers, to reduce barrel and throat wear with that caliber, which is notorious for barrel/throat burning.

I've wondered from time to time if such wads, maybe with a tweak in ingredients, might be useful for extending the velocities plain based cast bullets might be shot at without leading.

Have any of you tried this, or know of such experiments being tried???

I guess this is the kind of thing a man thinks of when he's tired, or has too much time on his hands, or an overactive imagination???

odoh
12-22-2008, 03:11 AM
IIRC, it was the graphite that caused the problem in the first place? Not really sure as I wasn't around then and haven't read Donaldsons take on the issue. Dad was one of the early owners of the swift and the 'graphite ball' was used in the factory ammo. I will say graphite won't find its way into my equipt!

Reason being is that back in the late 70's when graphite was in vogue in our auto lubes the Mil STD office of primary responsibility (Army) for DoD determined that it was erosive and was purging stock (to the surplus market) and called our engrs (working at an airforce depot then) together to determine and direct replacfement lubes for our equipt. It wasn't a phased replacement, it was immediate and caused great concern in the military industrial complex. I recall not much was mentioned outside of DoD at the time which was unfortunate ~ the Mobile 1 was initially introduced about then and its angle was graphite which quietly faded away.

Interestingly, folks of that era take on it was different. One fella commented he used it exclusively in his pontiac and the oil filter was filtering it all out as it was extremely heavy at changeout. He didn't realize as an erosive, it was particles of his eng block in that filter :holysheep

So, aside from the graphite ~ what would a wad do that our gas checks can't?

longbow
12-22-2008, 04:20 AM
I am a little confused. Graphite is a lubricant and still pretty common as a dry lube and also in many bearing greases. It should not be abrasive at all.

Moly is also used as a dry lube and is present in many oils and greases. However, I have read that moly can cause corrosion in gun barrels and gas systems when used dry.

Both are commonly used in bullet lubricants and as dry lube on bullets/boolits.

Both are lubricants and both reduce friction so where does the erosion come from?

Not arguing, just asking.

Longbow

GabbyM
12-22-2008, 04:41 AM
Their are powders out their with graphite to help them slip down powder measure tubes.
I've burned out a few 243 barrels and it seamed those powders worked faster. Or it could have been the rate I was cycling the bolt.

Arcco Graphite oil ! Now that stuff would polish out an engine.
I had a Bike I was tearing down at 3K intervals. It had 17K using standard Motor Cycle oil and we could still see the cross scratch heavily in the cylinder liners. 3K of the graphite oil and the scratch was gone. Shocking.

GabbyM
12-22-2008, 04:58 AM
I am a little confused. Graphite is a lubricant and still pretty common as a dry lube and also in many bearing greases. It should not be abrasive at all.

Moly is also used as a dry lube and is present in many oils and greases. However, I have read that moly can cause corrosion in gun barrels and gas systems when used dry.

Both are commonly used in bullet lubricants and as dry lube on bullets/boolits.

Both are lubricants and both reduce friction so where does the erosion come from?

Not arguing, just asking.

Longbow

Molly will attract moisture. So if you're using molly in your bullet lube you'll want to clean your barrel after use. In EP grease molly is an impact resistor not a lubricant. Prevents metal to metal contact. Which is what lubricant does except molly has a very high strength since it's a metal. So it works well in tie rod joints when on rough roads. They are mostly all rough. In high speed bearings with plastic seals molly will cut the seal over time. That's why you don't see it in CV or Wheel bearing grease.

I've never warmed up to it as a bullet lube but I've seen guys do well with molly coated bullets.
They all to a man said their barrels would last forever but they traded rifles every other year.
That was the BS walking.

Graphite is great stuff for pin tumbler locks. Not a similar use comparable to rifle barrels.

bobk
12-22-2008, 10:20 AM
Any caveats on powdered teflon? Outers used to market this, maybe still do.
Bob K

felix
12-22-2008, 10:41 AM
It releases fluorine when flamed upon. Very corrosive if and when it decomposes. ... felix

bobk
12-22-2008, 10:55 AM
felix,
Thanks for the tip. Don't think I want to put it in my gun barrels.

Bob K

odoh
12-22-2008, 12:19 PM
As mention in my earlier post, I worked at an air force logistics center for many yrs as one of the tech mgrs for aircraft power systems. One of the things our engrs/physical science guys determined about moly was that when exposed to moisture, the sulfur dioxide would produce sulfuric acid. This was evident w/the C130 generators stub (drive) shafts accelerated wear ~ splines/teeth were gnarly and in some cases almost gone. There were others too but the C130 cases were easy to remember. Nope, no molly for me

longbow
12-22-2008, 12:21 PM
Interesting. I have never heard that graphite in oil would accelerate engine wear before this thread. But then I have never used it nor do I know anyone who has so have no first hand experience.

I guess like many, I had assumed since graphite is used as a dry lube and in some greases/oils, it must be good.

With moly, I have heard of problems when people adding powdered moly to crank cases but that was more due to filter plugging maybe because too much or too coarse a particle size. The moly additive I see in stores says it will not filter out. If the filter plugs then the by-pass valve opens and you are running unfiltered oil ~ not good either.

As for rifle barrels, I have understood that use of moly powder on "J" bullets can lead to corrosion and other problems. Here I figured one of the problems was not cleaning and oiling after shooting. If moly absorbs moisture then oiling would be essential to avoid corrosion ~ at least in high humidity areas. I do not use moly on bullets or boolits and always clean and oil after shooting anyway.

Felix brings up a good point too about Teflon. Several people have posted about using Teflon tape to "patch" cast boolits. That would likely be worse than Teflon in lube as the thin tape at the boolit base would see the flame front directly.

Visiting this site is always a learning experience!

Longbow

odoh
12-22-2008, 12:32 PM
Their are powders out their with graphite to help them slip down powder measure tubes.
I've burned out a few 243 barrels and it seamed those powders worked faster. Or it could have been the rate I was cycling the bolt.

. . . ..

I could be wrong but I thot the graphite was intended to control static charge buildup on the powder as it moves thru the dry part of its manufacfturing processes. It is a miniscule amount tho. Ball powder uses nitro (double base) and tends to generate lil' more heat.

Bent Ramrod
12-22-2008, 03:21 PM
I used homemade graphite wads for a while in a .22 wildcat which was about the rimmed equivalent of a .22 Remington Magnum. I couldn't see much of any effect, but of course this was not a very high-intensity cartridge. Supposedly, the wax/rosin/graphite wad stays together in the neck of the case under the bullet, and then vaporizes into a reducing/cooling/lubricating gas when the powder burns, giving the effect of a gas check without the impedance of the expanding gases while protecting the leade as well. Sharpe commented on the possible danger of erosion using these wads, but he was blaming the rosin instead of the graphite for the erosion potential.

It sounds like the idea behind the wads was the earlier one that had the "nitro" powder gases oxidizing and "burning out" the leade and the rifling. Since then, the thinking has come around to the notion that the powder gases are already reducing agents. The burning powder heats the steel to the level that the excess carbon and nitrogen in the gases is imbibed into the metal of the leade and rifling, hardening the surface, which eventually flakes and erodes off.

In that case, unless the cooling effect of the evaporating wads is enough to keep the steel surface below the temperature necessary to carburize or nitride the surface, it would seem that the wax wads are a step in the wrong direction, giving off even more carburizing gas. That being said, I have used IPCO graphite wads in my .22-15-60 Stevens with smokeless powder and cast boolits and this seems to enhance accuracy slightly.

Junior1942
12-22-2008, 06:59 PM
I get much better accuracy with plainbase bullets in 44 mag SBH with a 1/8" x 1/2" dry felt wad twixt powder & bullet. If anybody wants a few freebies to try send me a SASE with 42¢ postage on it.

GSM
12-22-2008, 07:12 PM
I could be wrong but I thot the graphite was intended to control static charge buildup on the powder as it moves thru the dry part of its manufacfturing processes. It is a miniscule amount tho. Ball powder uses nitro (double base) and tends to generate lil' more heat.

More of a deterrent coating to regulate burn rate than static aid.

MtGun44
12-22-2008, 07:35 PM
All the factory supplied (expensive!) CV joint grease I have ever
used is dark black and most say MOLY EP on the tube.

Bill

odoh
12-22-2008, 08:12 PM
All the factory supplied (expensive!) CV joint grease I have ever
used is dark black and most say MOLY EP on the tube.

Bill

Thets what OEM VW Beetles came with ~ good stuff as it doesn't sling free and probably the initial thinking for our usage on aircraft applications ~ Don't dally if you tear a CV boot tho.

Donno how true but someone said Colorado was the only location where moly is found in the free world.

I've not been able to find it for my CV joints lately. Had to settle for some stuff that looked like handcream, white w/greenish tint.

Slowpoke
12-22-2008, 09:18 PM
"Donno how true but someone said Colorado was the only location where moly is found in the free world"

The copper mine's in S. AZ. get Moly as a by product, lot's of it. they set mills up just for it dirtiest place I ever seen.

I ran a off road VW for 18 years, I added moly to the trans axle ever time I changed the gear oil, smooth smooth shifting, ran the same gear box the whole time, no repairs, No CV's just a swing axle.
good luck

HangFireW8
12-23-2008, 12:11 AM
Donno how true but someone said Colorado was the only location where moly is found in the free world.

Not true. During WWII we got it from South Africa, Japan supplied Nazi Germany with it via submarine, mined from some place in Asia.

-Ken

HangFireW8
12-23-2008, 12:23 AM
One of my favorite "gun books" is Harvey Donaldson's "Yours Truly, Harvey Donaldson." One of the things he discusses in it is his very favorable results using graphite wads in the .220 Swift, among other calibers, to reduce barrel and throat wear with that caliber, which is notorious for barrel/throat burning.


Donaldson typically ran his Swifts at 3600-3800 fps instead of going for max velocity, which could also account for his rifle's long throat life. Sounds like a good idea to me, but then again I didn't have a Swift built to run it at 22-250 speeds.

Bent Ramrod commented that Phil Sharpe didn't like Rosin in his barrels. I agree with that. I just re-read this portion of his book, Sharpe was also very big on the use of Colloidal Graphite, which is much finer grain and ionized compared to standard Graphite. I also discovered this is the stuff in Gun Slick, suspended in oil, which I've used in 1911 rails for years.

The "graphite in gun barrels is evil" position is a little odd to me, since nearly all the powders we shoot are covered with it. Without it, all smokeless powders are off-white, light yellow, or a little greenish. One or two of the Clays shotgun powders is like this. The graphite serves too purposes- makes the powder non-stick and free flowing, and being very conductive, prevents the buildup of static electricity.

I haven't started shooting my custom 220 Swift yet- just getting back to shooting after a little break- but the idea of lube wads under jacketed bullets is of great interest to me. I'd hate to shoot 700 shots, just have my loads worked up and kinks worked out, and already have to rebarrel or setback.

The problem with early low speed, high intensity double based powders like Hi-Vel #2 was not oxidizing or acidity. Hi-Vel #2 just had a very high flame temperature, that is why it burned out barrel throats in high intensity cartridges. Modern slow double-based powders are better inhibited.

-HF

Firebird
12-23-2008, 02:00 AM
Graphite is a very asymmetrical substance, down at the level of molecules think of it a lots of flat plates stacked on each other. The plates slide easily on one another, but the edges of those plates are hard enough that they can dig in and take chunks out of most substances. So it is a lubricant, as long as you can get (and keep) those flat plates flat on the surface so they slide over each other. When it is just randomly added to a liquid then the plates can tumble and land on end and dig their edges into the surface they are supposed to be lubricating and produce a lot of wear instead of preventing that wear.