View Full Version : lyman #311413 / 169gr spitzer

12-15-2008, 12:53 PM
Has anyone every had any success with this boolit for either .308 or 30-06?
I cannot get it to be consistantly accurate. The groups are all over the page

12-15-2008, 02:53 PM
Had the mould, couldn't find a combination what worked well in either of my .308s, traded it off! The 311314 did shoot fairly well in my 30-30 Savage 340...but the 311466 shot so much better that I couldn't justify keeping both around. On the other hand, so far that old Savage has shot every boolit I've fed it as well or better than JBs.


12-15-2008, 05:29 PM
Many, e.g. NV Curmudgeon, have had success with that CB, but you can't push it as fast as something like #311467 or #311291. E.H. Harrison of the NRA found it best to limit velocity to ~1,500 fps. Also, given #311413's lesser bearing surface, I'd make doubly sure that they're sized to fit your bore and maybe even a bit larger; .311" or perhaps even .312".

12-15-2008, 05:41 PM
Lyman 311413 shoots real well out of several of my 06's and 308 Win.

I don't " hot rod " the 413'.

I shoot mine at 1,400 - 1,500 fps. and my Ruger # 1 stainless , 308 Win. will shoot 5 rounds in a " ragged hole " at 50 yards.




12-15-2008, 06:28 PM
During CB testing of my M1A (7.62/.308) I have fired a limited number of recipes with 311413.

The best result so far was 10 rounds in 1.5" from 50 yards, iron sights. Velocity was 1752 fps average, and the bullet was water-dropped wheelweights sized .311". Charge was 26.0 H335 with no filler, sparked by the CCI #34 primer.

I have four-cavity moulds for several of the Lyman .30s, including 413, so once I isolate some good loads it'll be pretty easy to keep up the supply. 311466 seems to be my best performer to date in the M1A, but there's plenty of loading and shooting yet to be done with 413, too.

bruce drake
12-16-2008, 12:30 AM
I use a 311413 mold and I limit my fps to around 1600 (this comes from using LEE's reduction formula from his first reloading manual) for my 308 and 30-06 cast loads. I can't claim to have the same accuracy as Ben but if I do my part I can match BruceB's results with that mold.


12-16-2008, 01:05 PM
Try 20-22gr 2400. I get near MOA with it from a sporterized 03.

12-16-2008, 09:41 PM
I keep the velocity below 1700 FPS and it's a shooter in my .30/06 Number 1 Ruger...especially in the HP configuration. One of my better shooting .30 bullets./beagle

12-19-2008, 08:56 AM
I will agree with all above. I dont know if all molds cast a .311 .312 or not the one I have does. I size to .309 With ww you need to lube to get it through a sizer. I got good results in a Garand

12-19-2008, 08:55 PM
thanks for the tips guys.....Im going to give this mold one more good try ...

12-20-2008, 11:27 AM
IIRC I read somewhere that this boolit is designed for squib loads to feed out of either a Krag or Springfield magazine. Col. Harrison noted that it failed at higher velocity. I have had pretty good luck with it but only up to about 1500-1600 fps.

12-21-2008, 11:56 AM
I think Ive been trying to push this one at too high velocity...Im getting a drift that the lower velocity works best ...so Im going to give that a try..

01-19-2009, 10:36 PM
here is the result of my latest effort with this mold
308 savage 99C
sized .309
35 gr of Winchester 748
50 yards,,,,,9 shots in 1.5x1.5

01-20-2009, 08:45 PM
You might want to try a different powder. I've usually found ball powders to get erratic when you reduce the loads too much below their optimum pressure threshold. Are you using any filler with that 748 load?

01-20-2009, 08:56 PM
ATR,Iload mine with 700x Vel.around 1500 fps Bullet seated just above grease ring.Flinter

01-21-2009, 08:20 PM
NO,,,not using any fillers in the 748 load....that powder seems to give me the best results

Ive tried 13.5 grains of Unique and the boolits scatter all over the place, again Im not using any filler with these loads but my next try will be with filler using the Unique powder load,,,,,
the best Ive been able to do with Unique is 10 rounds in 2.5"x2.5" at 50 yards

I am also considering NOT crimping the Unique load as Im wondering if my roll crimp is causing variations in pressure.....

01-21-2009, 08:57 PM
Try no crimp and seated out to lightly engrave in the rifling when chambered. Filler might still help.You could also try down around 10 gr. of that Unique. I'd try that without the filler, maybe with a pistol primer. That boolit does NOT like to go fast under most circumstances.

01-21-2009, 09:23 PM
This bullet is an old one and as the Lyman Manual and CH Harris point out it has soured many aspiring bullet casters. I use it occasionally as I can get the same results from 311041 and 311291, but it does do well in squib loads. I agree completely with Hornet. It needs to be slightly engraving the rifling to work at medium velocities. I have found best results with 14 to 16 grains of 2400 with either cartridge.

I had inconsistent results with 700X in a .30-06. I have tried Blue Dot, Bullseye, and Green Dot at one time or another in small charges. These were fine but 2400 worked best. I do not use fillers.

The nose of the 311413 is unsupported by the lands and the bullet will bend under rotational stresses causing increasing degrees of yaw as charges increase. Your charge of Unique is causing this to happen. At slow speeds of 1,400 and as low as 900 this bullet can be a real tack driver.

01-21-2009, 10:16 PM
I'm certainly happy to find this information as I purchased a rather elderly Lyman mold for it. The owner stated that he had purchased it and a couple other molds at a farm auction in Michigan about thirty years ago and it had spent the intervening years sealed in a gallon jar. I cast about twenty boolits with it yesterday. Certainly a fine looking projectile but I had been wondering about the accuracy due to the spitzer shape. I also have a Modern Bond mold that throws a similar looking boolit but with a Plain base. I'm looking forward to testing both of them in both 30-30 and 30-40 this spring. Neil

01-21-2009, 10:33 PM
I've had pretty good results with the 311413 and a similar bullet the 311329 with 9-10 gr. Unique or 700X out of my 03A3. Velocity around 1200-1300 fps.


01-22-2009, 08:32 AM
IIRC I read somewhere that this boolit is designed for squib loads to feed out of either a Krag or Springfield magazine. Col. Harrison noted that it failed at higher velocity. I have had pretty good luck with it but only up to about 1500-1600 fps.

I believe this is the "Squib" bullet, designed by a guy named Squib. That's where the name and tern "squib" load come from. IIRC, (Gee I wish Floodgate was still here!), the design was intended for reduced loads in the Krag or '03 on reduced yardage range for Guard units and what not, where it did well.

02-03-2009, 02:39 PM
I never did well with it but perservered in casting preferring the 311284 and 291 molds. Lyman sold alot of these cause they looked so much like a jacketed bullet to the beginning casters. I should try it in a cast load for the K31 Swiss rifle.afish4570:roll::roll:

02-11-2009, 08:02 PM
Range results
.308 Savage 99C (not exactly a "target" rifle) / Lyman #311413 / 170 gr spitzer / sized .310 / 18 gr of 2400 / 50 yards
NO crimp....case neck expanded with 0.309 expander
shots are within 1.5 x 1.5

this is as good as Ive been able to get (so far)

02-12-2009, 12:50 AM
if you had that target against a good backer,i would step the load up a tad and try a pistol primer.
if not, you might wanna go down a grain or so.

02-15-2009, 11:47 AM
18 of 2400 is a little hotter than the loads I used to use in my .30-06, which were from 14.5 gr. to 16 gr. of 4227 (no filler). seated to kiss the rifling, these would give me 1 1/2" or better groups at 100 yd from a rebarreled Springfield target rifle. I cast some semi-split point bullets using a little strip of paper 1/4" wide 1/16" back from the point - those would just about turn a rabbit inside out. Quit using them on edible game.

08-12-2009, 04:01 PM
In the late 50's, my Dad had experimented with IMR 3031 (from 31gr to 35gr in 1gr increments) with these boolits (Lyman #311413) sized to .311" in a .30-06, results reported "inaccurate".
20gr IMR 3031 were reported as "fair" with 7-1/2" x 4" groups at 200 yards.

Then he went with 15 grains of IMR 4759 (lot 63), WCC120 primers, FA '43 .30-06 brass and reported firing a 2-1/8" x 2-7/8" 5-shot group at 200 yards, 15 minutes elevation.

He left me a low-serial-number Springfield M1903 (with the Hatcher hole) and I'm thinking that this will be a good load for it.

09-11-2009, 12:39 AM
Belding and Mull also made a version of the Squib. I was pretty determined to make it work in my Krag, at a velocity near 2000fps. I tried a lot of different powders, different lubes, alloys hard as heck, different sizing, etc, and all I got was frustration, until I finally decided to slow down. Now maybe I've gone too slow, but I'm not going to argue with the results. I finally wound up with 12.5gr of Blue Dot, Rem 9 1/2M primer, for, I would guesstimate, 1250-1300fps out of my Krag rifle, the bullet is seated out to just start in the throat, the unrifled portion that a Krag has. I think I could have some fun with it in a 100 yard match, oh the group was shot at 85 yards, the extent of my backyard range. That's 5 shots, 3 in the upper cloverleaf and the other 2 touching less than an inch away. This is my 100 yard load, now on to something other than this bullet for a 200 yard load. I'm going to shoot in my first cast boolit match the 25th if things go right!

09-11-2009, 11:37 AM
This mold is pretty much a copy of the H&G #20. This was on the H&G site. #20 - .30 Caliber. Squibb-Miller 170 grain design. Gas check, one grease groove then grease/crimp groove with no forward bore diameter flat section before start of nose taper. Sharp point. "See August 1948 issue of American Rifleman, page 59- "One-hole groups" "January 30, 1951--Stafford Lewis--Size .308--1" at 100 yards." "June 27, 1955 J.C. Kotas Good 200 and 300 yards" "April 24, 1950. "Elrick- Iron sights, 1" at 75 yards" "March 29 1949” Harl Lee Jr. "Excellent results"

Not sure if you could find these articles but I'm pretty sure they would have load data in them. I have the 413 and am in the process of trying to get a #20 to compare.

09-11-2009, 04:04 PM
Sounds like some interesting articles, I spent a lot of time with American Rifleman issues that old when I was going to school at Ohio University in the 90's. Probably too much time!

09-11-2009, 04:49 PM
"IIRC I read somewhere that this boolit is designed for squib loads to feed out of either a Krag or Springfield magazine. Col. Harrison noted that it failed at higher velocity. I have had pretty good luck with it but only up to about 1500-1600 fps. "

The bullet wasn't designed for squib loads, but was designed by a fellow whose last name was Squibb. He was from Lima Ohio and designed the bullet sometime before WWII. It was quite popular in it's day with every mold maker offering it's version of the "Squibb bullet". 311413 is Lyman's version.

I have molds for this bullet by Cramer, Hensley and Gibbs, Lyman, and Belding and Mull. I don't believe Modern Bond made one. Someday when I get my round tuit, I will do a series of head to head tests between these bullets. I strongly expect their to be no real difference, but it will be a fun project and who know.

Most folks have found joy with this bullet at or under 1.5 K fps. Frowns develop as the speed goes up. There was a fellow on this board a few years back that went by the moniker of Aladin who produced a custom Lee mold for a 200 grain version of this mold and claimed all sorts of good stuff at long range and respectable speeds. I never tried it, so I can't say for certain whether it did or not.

Back in the early 60's I shot a bunch of 311413s in several 03 and 03A3 rifles and got good results in the 1.5 K fps range. Much over than and they went everywhere. Maybe I just don't have the mojo!

09-12-2009, 03:53 PM
Wilk gas checks might just be the savior for these boolits!
Check out this article:
Starts on page 6.

Imagine getting these boolits up to 2,400 or 2,500 FPS, and having them be accurate?

TexRed turned me on to this idea last night.

Slow powder like IMR 4350, IMR4381, WMR, Rx19 or the like would be a necessity.

Now if I could only find my freaking gas checks.... time to make a GC puncher...

09-13-2009, 03:15 PM
I'm very interested in a cast bullet load with a spirepoint at higher than normal velocity. That probably makes me part of a big, old club. Tried the 413 with a hefty dose of AA#9 a couple days ago, about 3-4" groups at 50 yds. Not good, but if I can get it up to about 2,000 fps and 3" at 100 I'd call it a success. When I find the combo I'll report back, I've gotten a lot of good suggestions here and on the CBA forum, where I'm known as tturner53. EDIT; Am also working with 308334 and 224450. The spire point is secondary, it's the high BC I'm after.

09-13-2009, 04:28 PM
Check out that Wilk gas check article in the link I posted.

Without the extra support in the drive bands that the Wilk GC provides (which acts like a semi-jacket), trying to push these spire-point boolits faster than about 1,600fps is pretty much a lost cause, even if you cast them hard.

IMR 4759 was made for reduced loads in rifles; so these spire-point boolits are a good match for that powder, when you're not trying for anything more than 1,600 fps. AA No. 9 is really a magnum pistol powder. Makes me wonder how reliable your ignition will be and what chamber pressures you'll get in a relatively huge case.

I have a few hundred of these 311413's that were cast, GC'd, sized and lubed 40 years ago. They're going in the melting pot to be fitted with the Wilk GC, as soon as I can find my doggone .30 GC's and make a suitable punch.

09-14-2009, 01:10 AM
I read the article. I can't wait to try it. I'll be out in the garage looking for a punch. Thanks for the tip.

09-19-2009, 02:20 AM
Shot another test load today. Ideal #311314, 9.5 gr. Red Dot, Lyman lube w/gc about 170 grs. 2 1/4" 6 shots at 100 yds, nice round group. CZ 550 FS 30-06, 20.5" barrel 1/12" twist. It's a beautiful Mauser carbine with a full length Walnut stock. I love that gun. Next I'll try harder alloy and Wilke's gas checks, want to up the velocity.

09-26-2009, 08:39 PM
Some progress in this effort. Made up my Super ww alloy; 22 lbs. ww, 2 lbs. Roto Metals Super Hard (70% lead/30% antimony, and 1 lb. of #1 babbit (about 90% tin). I figure this alloy with oven heat treat should be hard enough for what I have in mind. Working on a good way to punch out the gas checks, I need a surface that's hard but not hard enough to dull the punch. Right now they're getting bent a little when I punch 'em out. The plan is to launch these babies at jacketed velocity. Any of you scientific types have a thought on my alloy?

01-09-2011, 01:22 PM
here it is(no lube...duh!).

01-09-2011, 03:23 PM
It appears folks above are right about the speed too. 12.5gr of Blue Dot, it turns out, produces 1575fps from my 30" Krag barrel. Now, I was having problems at the 18gr level with it and the Eagan both. I think my problem was some old Herter's primers because when I changed primer with the Eagan groups really became groups, so I might try creeping the B&M311169 up a bit, closer to 2000fps. I have some hard cast and well aged.