When is old powder, too old?

[Hang Fire]

Looking for some opinions on using old powder for reloading?

I have some different smokeless powders I store in detached garage, they are well over a decade old, still using and it performs well. But, here in this part of Arizona, it can get hot, actually very hot, 125 degrees is not that uncommon.

I have been getting a bit leery of continued use, what think some here on the subject?

[Frank46]

Hang Fire, there was a thread I think on shooters.com when it was still active that when dupont was in the process of selling their line that some lots of powder weren't done just right. I had a can of 4320 that had remained unopen for some years. Out of curiosity I opened it up and the entire can inside was covered with heavy rust. Not one to take any chances I dumped it all over my back yard in the grass. There were large flakes of rust. It is said that you should store it in a cool dry place. 125 degrees don't exactly sound cool and dry. just my two cents worth. Frank

[snowwolfe]

I am still using powder I bought on sale 18 years ago. Performs like it was new. But is has been stored in a cool dry area also.

[Junior1942]

Hang Fire, you might be ok because of your low humidity. However, do like I do here in high heat, high humidity Louisiana--store it in a frost free refrigerator. That's where I keep powder, primers,and loaded ammo.

[Bass Ackward]

If stored correctly, powder has almost an indefinate shelf life. And primers actually improve with age if in a dry place.

The only powder that tends to decompose on me, and it has happened three times, is 3031. Kernels turn pale and get an odor that is unlike anything I have ever smelled around powder. When I was shooting it in fair amounts, I could almost tell when it was going to go bad before those symptoms ocurred.

I inherited some bullseye and some 2400 from the late 50s. And some unique that I bought in bulk for shotguns in 71. All appears still good.

[imashooter2]

I'm shooting up old surplus 8mm loaded in the 40's. Have shot 30 year old reloads that my Grampa put together. Have loaded plenty of 20-25 year old Red Dot of my own and have Herco of the same vintage. Have shot Bullseye from the old foil can with the plug top (not the pull out spout). No idea how old that was. Powder lasts a long time. From the Alliant web site:


How to Check Smokeless Powder for Deterioration

Although modern smokeless powders are basically free from deterioration under proper storage conditions, safe practices require a recognition of the signs of deterioration and its possible effects.

Powder deterioration can be checked by opening the cap on the container and smelling the contents. Powder undergoing deterioration has an irritating acidic odor. (Don't confuse this with common solvent odors such as alcohol, ether and acetone.)

Check to make certain that powder is not exposed to extreme heat as this may cause deterioration. Such exposure produces an acidity which accelerates further reaction and has been known, because of the heat generated by the reaction, to cause spontaneous combustion.

Never salvage powder from old cartridges and do not attempt to blend salvaged powder with new powder. Don't accumulate old powder stocks.

The best way to dispose of deteriorated smokeless powder is to burn it out in the open at an isolated location in small shallow piles (not over 1" deep). The quantity burned in any one pile should never exceed one pound. Use an ignition train of slow burning combustible material so that the person may retreat to a safe distance before powder is ignited.

[sundog]

I've got part of a H4227, 60's vintage, in cardboard container, still seems to work okay. Prolly ought to go ahead and use it up. Hmmmm, sounds like a batch of 30-30 plinking ammo for the grandkids! sundog

[1Shirt]

Hangfire, Bought 6 lb. of H4831 at a gun show that was in the old Hogden red and yellow containers. Has to be at least 20+ years old. Shoots fine, no sign of deterioration. Wish I had bought the other 10 lbs. of the stuff at $5.00 a pound. Many years ago (in the 50's) shot a bunch of mil surplus 30-40, with 22gr. boolits. Had to be at least 40 years old. Shot fine. Some of those cases had split necks. Just pulled the boolits on those, but powder looked ok. Was a teenager then and had limited common sense that I hope has been corrected with age. 1Shirt

[Cloudpeak]

I've got part of a H4227, 60's vintage, in cardboard container, still seems to work okay. Prolly ought to go ahead and use it up. Hmmmm, sounds like a batch of 30-30 plinking ammo for the grandkids! sundog

I just loaded up a bunch of 44 mag ammo reduced loads using H4227 that dates to the early 70's. I also used some 2400 from the same time frame that had never been opened. Both powders were generally stored in a cool dry place but they did spend a few years exposed to temps in the 90's.

Cloudpeak

[Hang Fire]

Thanks guys for all the replies and input, eases my mind on the subject.

I usually go by my nose when I open a can, for Unique it smells of pepper, most all the IMR stuff smells of ether. If I should sniff that bad acrid smell, I will dispose of it, but for now my 3031 still smells fresh. Maybe the saving grace here with the high heat, is the extremely low humidity.

Junior1942, good idea as to the frost free fridge, will see if I can find one to use, cold beer at hand in a hot garage is not a bad thing either.

[454PB]

In all my years of handloading, there were only two powders that went bad.....and both were IMR powders. I had several cans of 4198 go bad, to the point that the dust given off by the powder burned your eyes and nose. I also had a can of 4064, still had the paper seal on the metal spout, and it was full of rust and the acrid dust. These same powders were stored with other containers of ball powder that are fine. For that reason, when I buy bulk powders, I always get ball powder. All the others are bought on an "as needed" basis.

[Ricochet]

You need to get the temperature of your stored powder down. Heat is far more accelerating of smokeless powder's deterioration than humidity. The hotter it gets, the faster it breaks down. The Army's aging tests to predict the deterioration of stored powder in service are run at 150 degrees F, and that'll kill it in a matter of months.

The initial stages of decomposition are relatively slow, and the diphenylamine stabilizer in the powder absorbs the oxides of nitrogen that are released. Once the diphenylamine's used up, the oxides of nitrogen catalyze the decomposition at an ever-increasing rate, and the decomposition releases heat which further accelerates it. If the powder's stored in a mass and the heat can't escape fast enough, it'll spontaneously ignite. Quite a few arsenals, ammo dumps, battleships and the like have gone up in a giant fireball in this way, which is why they do those accelerated powder monitoring tests and sell off powder or ammo that's nearing the end of its safe storage life as surplus.

[Edward429451]

I've been using up some powder from the early 80's, some 3031, 4198, and some 2400. All of it has been good. Some of the other kinds were not so into the rose bushes it went (Interestingly enough, the roses did so much better this year than in the past that it was incredible, AND where they were only pink before, now had a lot of red blooms.??)

Along with smelling it, I also pour some out onto a white paper and look at it. Even if it had no rust coloring in it, if it produced dust as it was poured, I pitched it.

[BruceB]

Good topic, especially for those of us who live in hi-temperature areas of the world.

One thing I do to aid in keeping the situation under control is to DATE each powder batch that I buy. Every container that comes into my possession (also including primers) has a sticker placed on it with the month and year of purchse.

Of course, this won't help us know just how old a batch of surplus powder may be, but I load mostly commercially-obtained components and dating them WILL help track the age of the goodies.

It only takes a few seconds to date a new container, and stickers are FAR more visible than just using a felt marker somewhere on the can. I also use big, bright-colored lettering on stickers to actually identify the powder in the can, even if it is still in the factory container.

It's disheartening to find out how quickly the powder I "just bought a few months ago" turns out to be ten or fifteen years old.

[Kragman71]

Hello,
Back in the 1960's,a Friend gave me a half can of Herculese Sharpshooter powder.This powder was discontinued in the 1930's,bbut was the best powder that I had for my 45/70 Trapdoors,so I nursed the can well into the 1970's. Every last grain was good.
The keyto long powder life is proper storage.
Frank

[454PB]

All my powder is stored at temperatures below 80 degs. maximum, and we have notoriously low humidy in Montana. The IMR powders that went bad were stored in the same conditions as OLDER HS6 ball powder that I'm still using. As Bruce B says, every container of powder and box of primers I buy gets dated. I do this with all loaded ammo as well, and include the recipe.

[Hang Fire]

BruceB:

"It's disheartening to find out how quickly the powder I "just bought a few months ago" turns out to be ten or fifteen years old."

LOL You hit the nail on the head with that one, when read of something I thought was on the news just a couple months ago, I am shocked, I tell you, shocked, to find out it was actually a decade ago.

[PatMarlin]

Where I live it's pretty low humidity cept when a massive Hawian Pinapple Express rainstorm hits with no let up like it is now.

Question is the powder is in a double cardboard box, in a shop trailer... does that stop the humidity any?

[Ricochet]

Humidity's not the enemy. Powder's watered down at several stages in its manufacture, Ball powders are made entirely underwater, and it's supposed to contain a couple percent or so of water which is fairly stable. Keep it sealed up so the volatile residual solvent doesn't get out, and you've got any humidity concerns licked. Heat is the big problem. Most chemical reactions accelerate exponentially with increasing temperature. Keep that powder cool and it'll last much longer.

[The Nyack Kid]

IIRC double-base powder has a much longer storage life than single-base powder . single-base powder will keep , for 30-40 years sometimes longer if stored in a cool dry place . ive got lots of old 3031 from the 70's that ive been using up and its all been good powder other than a little rust on the inside of the cans.

[Ricochet]

It'll keep a lot longer than that, if kept well. The U.S. Army once estimated at least 75 years, but they don't keep any that long. I've got a batch of surplus 4895 I'm using that was made in 1955, and it's fine.

I'm also shooting .45 ammo loaded in 1941 and 1942, Turkish 8mm ammo loaded in 1942 and 1943, Hungarian 7.62x54R loaded in 1956, Yugoslavian 8mm loaded in 1950... All shoots just fine.

[The Nyack Kid]

ive got some 5 boxes of 300 H&H ammo from the 40s . the powder in that stuff has gone bad ,i have no idea how it was stored in the past . around this ranch, it is really hard to keep power longer than 10 years (it gets used up)

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have some IMR4198 & some 700X that is at least 30+yrs. old & still good.
All stored in my basement. cool.