Primer Sensitivity

[rugerman1]

Back when I had my pistolsmith tune some revolvers for me,he only guaranteed the job if I used Federal primers.Foward to post-Obama 2008 primer shortages,,,,Federal primers seem to be in short supply locally.Did I read somewhere that Winchester primers(specifically pistol primers) were redesigned for better sensitivity?If so,that would make finding appropriate primers easier to find.

[44man]

Your smith did the wrong thing by making the mainsprings lighter or changing it. Accuracy can go to pot instantly.
I use OVERPOWER Wolfe springs and can get down to 1-1/2# trigger pulls.
Primers NEED a certain poundage to get consistent fire.
You would be better served by replacing the springs to full power factory specs. That is about 23# for pistol primers and 28# for LR primers.

[oneokie]

FWIW, IIRC, Federal primers are the softest/most sensitive primers made. Lee even warns against the use of Federal primers in their hand priming tool.

[felix]

Primers are soon to become a commodity. Federal has a new material composition to better meet the "new" rules, whatever they are. Mil Spec? It seems that primers are made in this country by all those who have the machinery at the same time. There was a glut of them right after 1995, and a shortage before. Only this time the primers are going to be more identifiable? ... felix

[rugerman1]

Are the new Federal primers as soft/sensitive as they used to be? Are the NEW Winchester primers as soft/sensitive as Federals(either old or new)?

[richbug]

Your smith did the wrong thing by making the mainsprings lighter or changing it. Accuracy can go to pot instantly.
I use OVERPOWER Wolfe springs and can get down to 1-1/2# trigger pulls.
Primers NEED a certain poundage to get consistent fire.
You would be better served by replacing the springs to full power factory specs. That is about 23# for pistol primers and 28# for LR primers.

You get 1.5# pulls out of a DA revolver in double action?


The Federals are still out there locally, but you can't hesitate if you see them, and can't be picky about prices.


That said, I just recently ordered a case of each from Grafs.

[richbug]

Are the new Federal primers as soft/sensitive as they used to be? Are the NEW Winchester primers as soft/sensitive as Federals(either old or new)?

I can't attest to the Winchesters, but the latest Federals are as soft as ever.

[jhrosier]

I can only guess that softer primers would be easier to ignite than harder ones.
I ran pretty much out of Federals about a year ago. I had been using them excusively with my Dillon Square Deal press. When I got the press many years ago, Federal was the only brand that they endorsed. When I got in touch with the tech folks at Dillon, they told me that all of the current domestic primers were OK to use. They also told me that the Winchesters are now about the same hardness as Federal. When I tried the Winchester primers in the leverage-challeged Square Deal press, they were, indeed, much easier to seat than the old ones and fired without any problems in my lightly sprung target gun.

Jack

[felix]

That is not really the whole story. You have to consider the time it takes to get the boolit out of the barrel from the instant of trigger trip. I prefer the system as was stated by the 44man because that kind of set up would insinuate the minimum "lock time", which in a revolter is the most significant part of the "total time". However, the worst scenario is a flint lock when considering "total time". If one can master that system, he should be an absolute master in any other kind of hand holding gun. Everyone should learn to shoot a flinter first and foremost. Then it would make no difference when shooting say a 788 versus a 700! ... felix

[Ghugly]

Are the new Federal primers as soft/sensitive as they used to be? Are the NEW Winchester primers as soft/sensitive as Federals(either old or new)?

As far as I can tell Federal primers are still the softest, and CCI the hardest with Remington and Winchester in between. Not sure about Wolf. I just bought 10K of Federal LP primers at Sportsman's Warehouse. They seemed to have plenty.

[oneokie]

stolen from another site, old info.

Mon Aug 16, 2004

#From my tests by tightening/loosening the hammer spring stain screw on a S&W
model 28 to increase/decrees the force the hammer hit the primer with. The
small pistol primers ranked from softest to hardest were,
Federal
Remington
Winchester
CCI

[44man]

You get 1.5# pulls out of a DA revolver in double action?


The Federals are still out there locally, but you can't hesitate if you see them, and can't be picky about prices.


That said, I just recently ordered a case of each from Grafs.
No, single actions and double actions in single action. I don't shoot any gun double action because I shoot long range and hunt only.
If you shoot close range steel then the mainspring does not matter as long as the gun fires. You don't need accuracy, just speed.
Depends on what you do with the gun.

[44man]

Felix, there is more to accuracy then lock time. Primers need hit with a very specific impact for consistent ignition. Reducing the impact will increase SD, MAD and AV a great deal.
I posted several times about a famous BR shooter that built up a heavy bench gun with a very expensive receiver. It was in 6mm PPC and would shoot one hole groups. It gradually started to spread groups so he bought and worked new brass, bought new bullets, checked bedding, etc. It got worse every time he shot it.
Then while at the bench, the cocking piece and firing pin popped out of the bolt. It had been unscrewing slowly. He tightened it back up and the rifle went back to one hole groups.
He then made an extensive chart by unscrewing the firing pin little by little and recording the group size and pin pressure. He could predict group size with mainspring tension over the whole range.
This is also the reason I would replace my Ruger mainsprings at the first sign of groups enlarging when shooting silhouette. A new mainspring laid next to my old one was a LOT longer because Ruger uses junk springs and they take a set.
For the accuracy I am getting with my revolvers, I use Wolfe over power variable springs.
In the old days, guys would loosen the strain screws on S&W revolvers to lighten the triggers. They lost all of their accuracy and could not figure out why.
Simple---slowly pushing the primer cup in to crush the compound causes all kinds of funny shots. The compound is fracturing into pieces before it fires. It might even break away from in back of the anvil. Hang fire or complete failure to fire.
Just shooting and hitting what you shoot at are two different things! :Fire:

[Hardcast416taylor]

I was reading along on this thread of advice and pretty much agreeing with what was said. Then 44 man said all accuracy is lost by loosening up S&W main springs. Well for 7 yrs I shot competitive PPC pistol courses and ran our clubs indoor ppc range. All this time I shot a S&W Model 14 with Wolfe target springs and eased off main spring tension to about 2 lbs. My load was a 148 gr Lyman wadcutter Boolit with 3.3gr. of either HP-38 or Win.231 powder with a Federal primer igniting it all in Win. brass. If I could figure out how to post a picture here I would show you all the trophies (9) and runner-up placques(3) I have for shooting a pistol that you say "looses all accuracy when you loosen the mainspring". Maybe your guns lose all sense of accuracy but don`t include everybodys elses. The only work done to my Smith was having the action polished and jeweled inside. No ribs or fancy sights or heavy match barrel. I wore out 1 set of Pachmyer Gripper grips and probably should change out this set. So it boils down to my shooting ability with an accurate pistol and load shot with relaxed springs.:mad::?: Robert

[felix]

44man, you are indeed correct. There is no reason not to keep the firing pin action in good repair. Robert is right on as well. However, I prefer a monster mash firing pin even though it is not required for consistency. All my gums, except those you are going to tune for me and you know which ones they are, have hard hitting firing pins. Ignition is everything, you know. ... felix

[44man]

I was reading along on this thread of advice and pretty much agreeing with what was said. Then 44 man said all accuracy is lost by loosening up S&W main springs. Well for 7 yrs I shot competitive PPC pistol courses and ran our clubs indoor ppc range. All this time I shot a S&W Model 14 with Wolfe target springs and eased off main spring tension to about 2 lbs. My load was a 148 gr Lyman wadcutter Boolit with 3.3gr. of either HP-38 or Win.231 powder with a Federal primer igniting it all in Win. brass. If I could figure out how to post a picture here I would show you all the trophies (9) and runner-up placques(3) I have for shooting a pistol that you say "looses all accuracy when you loosen the mainspring". Maybe your guns lose all sense of accuracy but don`t include everybodys elses. The only work done to my Smith was having the action polished and jeweled inside. No ribs or fancy sights or heavy match barrel. I wore out 1 set of Pachmyer Gripper grips and probably should change out this set. So it boils down to my shooting ability with an accurate pistol and load shot with relaxed springs.:mad::?: Robert
Let's see, what did I say? "Shooting close steel or targets does not require accuracy, only speed."
What is PPC? Please bring your guns over and do some REAL accuracy shooting with me! I will be kind and start you at 50 yd's, then we will move out slowly to 500 meters.
Now tell me how you determined you had a 2# mainspring? HOW does a 2# mainspring even dent a primer???? Sorry but you are blowing smoke and I am not standing downwind!
By the way, you can bring any long range handgun with you but it MUST have a 2# mainspring! :bigsmyl2: Better bring a lot of extra springs because you will never get off a shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

good info was posted here. Bottom line is none are as soft as a federal and to reduce double action pull to any appreciable degree means lightening springs which will effect primer strike. Yes it is detrimental to accuracy but not as much as a 5 lb heavier trigger pull is. The trick is getting feds to work with easy to ignite powders and that way not sacrifice much accuracy. Ive got loads in my ppc gun that shoot 3/4 of an inch at 25 yards and 1 inch at 50. If i was a better shot off of bags or had a radsom rest it would probably do better. What do i use? the old standard combination of fed primers and bullseye powder with a firm crimp and good case tension. The double action pull on that gun is 6.5 lbs and it functions flawlusly with fed primers

[44man]

True Lloyd but you have not gotten carried away. It seems as if most autos shooting SP primers need at least an 8# hammer spring but it can become unreliable so 8-1/2# is better. Revolvers need more weight then that and as primers get larger they need even more. Also mag primers need heavier springs.
Move to LP primers and you need 23# for reliable ignition and max accuracy. A LR primers needs 28#.
There is a way to reduce mainspring weight and that is to use a lighter hammer and a FASTER spring. Wolfe makes the best and reduced power springs are FASTER then the heavy springs. The result is that the primer is hit hard enough.
But to claim a 2# hammer spring will fire ANY primer just makes me fall off my chair! If you took out the strain screw on a Smith and ground a bunch off the spring, you MIGHT get to 2# without grinding through the spring, but it would NEVER fire a primer.
But you know yourself that just making a primer "pop" is not good enough.
I am not saying Hardcast is really believing that but he really has no idea what his spring weighs. He is in the zone so it fires and I accept that. I have no way to measure a spring and have to rely on what the spring maker tells me his springs are.
I just say that Hardcast is wrong in his assessment of what his spring really is.
That is the only thing I will make fun of him about, not his shooting because he is good. :mrgreen:

[Lloyd Smale]

i totally agree. A primer needs a good hit. this especially shows up with ball powders that are hard to ignite to begin with. Id bet that half the redhawks that people stuggle with are because of spring kits. Even in single action ruger i will never put a reduced hammer spring in or cut coils on the factory one.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Okay without starting a pissing match about weights let me blow a little "smoke" in your ear. I came up with the 2# spring figure only because that was what a FBI agent jokeingly said it felt like. It would fire a Fed. primer reliably every time. The only other primer it would ignite semi-reliably was a Win. Since I was obviously shooting when you were crawling out of your diapers I`ll explain what PPC is. PPC stands for Practical Pistol Course, it was a modified police shooting series of different distances of from 10 ft. to 20 yds. It was timed and different reload series were done at each distance (4). The last set was strong hand, weak hand and kneeling all from behind a barracade. The course was a 50 round event. Of course the time frame I`m talking about is the 50`s and 60`s when revolvers were the only game most law enforcements used. Now days I`ve been involved with distance metallic silouette shooting as well as big game hunting, deer mostly. My favorite is my worked over,by me, and scoped Ruger BH in .45LC. I don`t think I would try a 500 yd shot, as I don`t like wounding animals. I also have several .44 mags that I shoot quite well, including the 4" 29 I carried as a cop for awhile. So think what you like and beat your chest about being an expert, I`m only saying I`ve been there and have done what I claim. I might take you up in that shoot out some day. I`m a little tuckered out right now after they did a gutting surgery on me for cancer. Thanks for doubting me, I always liked a challenge. My advice to you is to keep questioning peoples claims, you may prove them wrong yet. BTW the third yr I shot competion I went thru 33k fed primers, I kept the empty "brick" boxes as a way to count how many rounds I had fired that year. :bigsmyl2::razz: Robert

[joeb33050]

This is from the book.
joe b.

PRIMER TESTS
C. Dell
I have been told many times down through the years that if a gun has a light hammer fall the groups fired with that gun will string up and down. I had always assumed that this was true as the persons reporting this effect were very respected men who had done a lot of really serious shooting.
Back before the primer shortage developed I had made a test rig to test primers all by themselves (a stand alone test of primers). Basically I was able to hit primers with a very repeatable force and was determining how much force it took to reliably fire them as well as the velocity that they would impart to a specially made pellet. Results were determined by measuring the velocity of the pellets about fifteen feet from the muzzle of the test rig.
This testing was discontinued when the supply of the desired primers for testing dried up.
These tests have not at this time been resumed. Two observations were, however, made from the data collected at that time. One: the observed average velocities were not affected by how hard the primer was hit. Second: about one primer in five regardless of make or grade was to a noticeable amount deviant from the group average. This took the form of either being significantly higher OR lower in velocity than the average.
These properties were discussed with various shooters during the time that supplies of the various primers were not available. I was often asked if the same results would be observed if I were actually shooting cartridges loaded with powder and bullet. There was at that time no practical way that I could test this idea. As a result the question was left hanging with no real answer.
Recently a method was conceived that would readily permit study of this as well as other questions. I had a spare Douglas 32-40 barrel blank with a 1-12 inch twist that could be devoted to a test program. A breech system was devised that would permit various firing pin impacts on the primer to be studied. It is not a fast system but permits one shot to be fired about every two minutes. Bullets are weighed, lubricated and swaged so that they are as uniform as can practically be made. All of the shots in the test were fired from my rail gun at a range of 100 yards. This test was designed to equate obtained accuracy with primer impact.
It was determined that six five shot groups under three different striker impact forces would be studied. The cartridge case was my 32-357 Magnum which was developed back in about 1971 but not really used until about 1993 when I received a barrel blank from Ken Bresein that was cut with Pope style rifling. It is the cartridge that my current competition gun is chambered for. The bullet is a 200 grain basic bullet from a Colorado Shooter's Supply mold. the bullet is subsequently lubricated and swaged before shooting. The swage is one of my own design and build. The powder charge for this test is 8.1 grains of Accurate Arms #7. Primers for this test were the Remington 7 1/2. One cartridge case was used for all shooting in this test. Powder charges were cast from a Redding M 3 BR powder measure and not individually weighed. Groups were evaluated by two methods, extreme spread of the two widest bullet holes and by the mean radius concept which studies all of the shots in the group.
In studying the velocity of all the shots fired on the record groups it was interesting to observe that about one shot in five was deviant from the group average by more than five feet per second. As most groups did not have an extreme velocity spread of more than ten feet per second this was considered significant. The deviance occurred both ways from the average velocity of the group. Some deviant shots measured a low velocity and others a high velocity. When more than one deviant shot occurred within a given group of five shots it would raise or lower the group average. Because of this, all comparisons were to the overall average velocity as all shots were fired under basically the same conditions of loading, temperature and load.
I will report the average velocities of each of the 30 shot study groups and the final
average velocity for the total 90 shots of the test.
In a similar manner I will report the average velocity spread within each set, the average
standard deviation, the average extreme spread and the average mean radius. All averages taken on six five round groups.

Phase I Phase II Phase III
Light Moderate Heavy Average
Impact Impact Impact Overall
Average Vel. (fps) 1227 1227 1228 1227
Avg. Velocity Spread (fps) 8 9 11 9
Avg. Vel. Std. Dev. (fps) 4 3 4 4
Avg. Extreme Group Spread (") 0.695 0.700 0.750 0.720
Avg. Mean Radius (") 0.281 0.252 0.276 0.270

This I believe shows beyond any reasonable doubt that accuracy is not affected one way or another by the force of the firing blow. If the primer goes off it goes off and the amount of energy transmitted to the powder is not affected by the impact energy of the firing pin. Even those primers that had to be hit twice in order to initiate ignition showed no difference from those that went off on initial impact.
While I believe that this eliminates one source of alibis for groups that are strung out up and down, it is one less thing that we as shooters of various old and new guns have to be concerned about. After completing this series of tests I can say without hesitation that accuracy is in no way affected by the force of the firing pin impact on the primer.

[runfiverun]

after reading that it sounds like his conclusion was that primers fired with a bit more or less force.
and his velocities showed them more or less through velocity loss or gain.
maybe this is the reason that primer companies use lot#s of primers that show fewer of these deviations, for their match grade boxes.
same primers, fancier boxes, higher prices. however they are more consistent.

[44man]

Okay without starting a pissing match about weights let me blow a little "smoke" in your ear. I came up with the 2# spring figure only because that was what a FBI agent jokeingly said it felt like. It would fire a Fed. primer reliably every time. The only other primer it would ignite semi-reliably was a Win. Since I was obviously shooting when you were crawling out of your diapers I`ll explain what PPC is. PPC stands for Practical Pistol Course, it was a modified police shooting series of different distances of from 10 ft. to 20 yds. It was timed and different reload series were done at each distance (4). The last set was strong hand, weak hand and kneeling all from behind a barracade. The course was a 50 round event. Of course the time frame I`m talking about is the 50`s and 60`s when revolvers were the only game most law enforcements used. Now days I`ve been involved with distance metallic silouette shooting as well as big game hunting, deer mostly. My favorite is my worked over,by me, and scoped Ruger BH in .45LC. I don`t think I would try a 500 yd shot, as I don`t like wounding animals. I also have several .44 mags that I shoot quite well, including the 4" 29 I carried as a cop for awhile. So think what you like and beat your chest about being an expert, I`m only saying I`ve been there and have done what I claim. I might take you up in that shoot out some day. I`m a little tuckered out right now after they did a gutting surgery on me for cancer. Thanks for doubting me, I always liked a challenge. My advice to you is to keep questioning peoples claims, you may prove them wrong yet. BTW the third yr I shot competion I went thru 33k fed primers, I kept the empty "brick" boxes as a way to count how many rounds I had fired that year. :bigsmyl2::razz: Robert
Now you know I was not getting down on you for anything but the 2# spring and the reference to PPC was only about the close ranges shot.
But you DID rub me wrong about the diaper thing! :bigsmyl2: I have been shooting, casting and loading for close to 57 years.
I too, kept primer boxes for my one .44 mag, I have gone past 58,000 rounds. Since 1956 I have owned 8 .44's, not counting countless guns in other calibers from the .38, .357, .357 max, .375 super mag, .45 Colt .475, 45-70, 7BR, 7R, 7mm-08 and many .22's. I am not counting rifles or muzzle loaders.
Being a part time gunsmith many years, the shots I fired could be quadrupled or more.
PLEASE don't ask me to count the rounds! :drinks:
OK, you explained the 2# trigger thing so I apologize and will not mention it again.
By the way, I will be 71 on the 18th.

[44man]

JoeB, Only one problem with the test. You only used one size primer.
You also do not explain what a "light" striker force measures.
It has not been my experience being a gunsmith far too long. Too many rifles brought in that lost accuracy only to find they were stored with the actions cocked. A spring replacement brought back the accuracy.
Your test did not consider spring speed that goes away when springs take a set. A sluggish spring, even when the gun is locked down to a bench to eliminate lock time effects is still not accurate. Neither is a shortened spring that does not continue force on the hammer and makes the pin bounce.
It is strange that the least amount of trouble are old milsurp rifles and the 1911. Hard to imagine they made better springs back then.
Put 5 rounds in a Mark II magazine for a week and you might get a few to feed. Fill a WW II 1911 mag for years and they all feed.
There is more to it then your testing suggests.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Hey 44man, you young whippersnapper. I do hate to say this but I`ve got you by 3 come Feb. Hard to believe I`ve developed a fondness for reading your writings a "LOVE AND HATE RELATIONSHIP to DISAGREE"??? Thanks for calling me out, that`s the most explaining I`ve done since boot camp! :drinks: Robert

[cajun shooter]

Well to throw in my 2 cents, but mind you I'm just a young whipper snapper at 61. I too shot PPC and was a Law Dog from Jan. 76 to Dec 90. Also a armouer and range officer. When talking about lock time and accuracy, It was my belief that the following was meant. When you lighten the mainspring you slow down hammer fall also and not just hammer force striking the primer. When the fall is slowed down that means you have to hold that front sight on target a longer time. And since we all Know what happens when the front sight moves. That has always been why I prefer the stronger springs. A revolver can be made as slick as owl s----- without any inside frame polishing. I've seen more than one PPC gun screwed up by these moves. John Contro trained me at S&W and he would shake his head when he found this type work. Let me say further that I've shot beside 1500 shooters and that person could probably overcome some problems that the normal person could not. So I don't need to hear what you did with a ground in half mainspring. A Master class shooter is far above a class A or b shooter and this person would have problems with a slow lock time. Oh and by the way I was still shooting revolvers for PPC in 90. That might be 3 cents worth but it is Xmas.

[felix]

CS, What was Archie's last name at Simith? He did my mod 29, scribbled in one of the handle halves and I just cannot read it. Never could. Too embarassed to ask him to sign the other one. Gun tuned in Simsbury CT at a PPC match on the outskirts of town. ... felix

[44man]

Hey 44man, you young whippersnapper. I do hate to say this but I`ve got you by 3 come Feb. Hard to believe I`ve developed a fondness for reading your writings a "LOVE AND HATE RELATIONSHIP to DISAGREE"??? Thanks for calling me out, that`s the most explaining I`ve done since boot camp! :drinks: Robert
Well, doggone it, an early happy birthday to you! :drinks:
But I never get angry or really argue. I just post that which I have had experience with. Others get different results and so be it. We learn one hell of a lot from each other and remain friends even when we don't agree. THAT is what is important and this is the best site on the net. :Fire:
Jim

[joeb33050]

after reading that it sounds like his conclusion was that primers fired with a bit more or less force.
and his velocities showed them more or less through velocity loss or gain.
maybe this is the reason that primer companies use lot#s of primers that show fewer of these deviations, for their match grade boxes.
same primers, fancier boxes, higher prices. however they are more consistent.

You didn't read it carefully enough. Try again.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

JoeB, Only one problem with the test. You only used one size primer.
You also do not explain what a "light" striker force measures.
It has not been my experience being a gunsmith far too long. Too many rifles brought in that lost accuracy only to find they were stored with the actions cocked. A spring replacement brought back the accuracy.
Your test did not consider spring speed that goes away when springs take a set. A sluggish spring, even when the gun is locked down to a bench to eliminate lock time effects is still not accurate. Neither is a shortened spring that does not continue force on the hammer and makes the pin bounce.
It is strange that the least amount of trouble are old milsurp rifles and the 1911. Hard to imagine they made better springs back then.
Put 5 rounds in a Mark II magazine for a week and you might get a few to feed. Fill a WW II 1911 mag for years and they all feed.
There is more to it then your testing suggests.

Evidently you can't read and comprehend either.
Charlie Dell did this testing.
Your spring-getting-tired-take-a-set theory is nonsense, ask Mr. Hooke. I've had loaded magazines for my Ruger MKII sit for over a year, never a pattern of not feeding-random and seldom.
joe b.

[44man]

Joeb, I don't know but all 6 of my Mark II magazine springs will fail after leaving just 5 rounds in them. I have to take them apart and stretch them or they quit feeding. I don't remember having that problem with the Mark I but that was too long ago. No, it doesn't happen when shooting, it has to be left loaded for a while.

Another spring that fails fast just after a few days of hunting is the magazine spring in the Rem 870, also the 1100. I used to buy Wolfe replacements by the dozen. These get weak just leaving the magazine filled for a full day or two when hunting. The guns will only feed one or two shots.
How about some of you other guys posting spring problems?

Yes I read that Dell did the testing but just typed so fast it got by me in my answer.
But please don't tell me you really believe everything in print without actual experience on your part! [smilie=1:
Try this, buy a new Ruger BH mainspring, pull the old one and lay them side by side.
Here is a picture of a few springs from Remington's I have left, both 870 and 1100. Remember they have been out of the guns for years and have relaxed a little. The end springs are replacement springs.
Now tell me you don't see a difference in lengths?

[44man]

I have had to make new springs by hand for years and years. Here is one I made for my flinter after the cheap original took a set and would not spark the frizzen. This spring has been in use for 40 years now.
Joe, I think you have a lot to learn about springs. You will not find smarts by reading a magazine! :drinks:

[waksupi]

Springs can and do take a set. That is just the nature of the metal, and can't be changed.
Many times, feeding problems in an old Mauser can be fixed, by putting in a new follower spring. They just get tired.
I wouldn't want to depend on an article written for a magazine, when I have first hand experience with something. That is why this board works. We go beyond what someone wrote.

[joeb33050]

Springs can and do take a set. That is just the nature of the metal, and can't be changed.
Many times, feeding problems in an old Mauser can be fixed, by putting in a new follower spring. They just get tired.
I wouldn't want to depend on an article written for a magazine, when I have first hand experience with something. That is why this board works. We go beyond what someone wrote.
Waksupi;
What magazine is that?
Let me bring you guys back to your classes in Machine Design and Simple Machine Mechanics, and maybe Physical Properties of Simple Machines.
Hooke's law states that for fairly small proportions of displacement, displacement is a linear function of force. A 1# force displaces a spring 1", a 2# force displaces that spring 2", and so on. This linear relationship holds until the displacement meets the elastic limit of the spring, after which further force affects displacement in a non-linear fashion; and after the elastic limit is exceeded the spring acts in a different fashion, although for small proportional displacements Hooke's law is still in force.
A spring stores potential energy.
Now spring design revolves about Hooke's law, in that the ideal spring is one that in application never exceeds the elastic limit, is never "bent", and always exhibits the linear simple force-displacement relationship.
A "Hooke's law" spring is one that is fairly commonly found. Mechanical watch and clock and chronometer springs, valve springs, auto suspension springs, and carburetor/throttle body return springs are examples of springs that operate as such.
It may be that some design requirements of the mechanism require that the spring be thinner or narrower or shorter than ideal, yet we would expect that the spring, while not Hooke's law ideal, would perform the required function over the expected life of the mechanism.
Improper metal composition, improper heat treating or improper manufacturing processes can, of course, result in a less than proper spring.
To suggest that certain Ruger magazine springs are generically defective is probably an error, and stretching of those springs may be the cause of failure.
Properly made steel springs may take an initial "set" as the spring sees its molecules aligned for the first time/s. However, properly made steel springs do not shorten or lengthen aver time, as long as the elastic limit is not exceeded.
At least that's how the topic was covered at Tech, those many years ago.

Now, to get to the question. C. Dell found that primer strike force and accuracy were not related. I believe that Charlie did the experiment, and that he recorded and reported his results accurately. He cocludes-my words-that the primer either goes off or doesn't, and as long as it goes off, accuracy is independant of primer strike force.
This reminds me of Ricardo, in "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine", where he was clear in stating that the voltage applied to the spark plug had no effect on the burning of the charge in the combustion chamber/cylinder as long as the plug fired. This contention was clearly in opposition to the results with better magnetos, coils (transformers), points, condensers (capacitors), wire and spark plugs. What many, I included, failed to understand was that the lighting of the charge was a digital (yes or no) and stochastic (probability of lighting the charge varies with the quality of the electrical equipment) event.
Clearly the explosion of a primer is not a stochastic event-if the gun fails to fire even rarely, it will be fixed or retired.

Now, C. Dell could have been wrong, but his is the only test I've ever read-all the rest is anecdotal agreement with the generally agreed on but probably incorrect conventional wisdom.

I'd welcome any evidence to the contrary, or in agreement. I would caution the reader that many of the statements about "you need a new spring" are made by spring sellers and manufacturers.

Let the testing begin.
(Maybe this would make a good magazine article.)
joe b.

[44man]

Joe, all I can say is to prove it to yourself. Take one accurate gun and a whole variety of springs down to where the primer JUST barely fires. Shoot many groups with each spring. Only then can you dispute facts. Better yet, test all four primers, LP, LR, SP, SR with different guns.
Specs for springs run the whole range just like aircraft specs are far more stringent then for automotive or bicycles.
Are you trying to tell us that the maker of the cheap Ruger and Remington springs are held to aircraft specs?
Do you store your bolt action rifles cocked or do you hold back the trigger when you close the bolt? If you release the cocking piece---WHY, if the spring is not damaged? Do you put your revolvers in the safe with hammers cocked?
You only prove that you are book reading again about things that do not apply.
How smart are engineers? I worked part time building roof trusses. I was the chief sawyer and cut all of the parts. I helped on the press table. Specs called for a certain nail plate at each junction. I told the boss they were too small. He would not use larger ones because they cost more. The trusses would fall apart when loading on the truss truck. The guys spent hours with hammers and new plates putting them back together. Profit down the drain because some pencil neck at a desk wrote the specs.
Yeah, sure, I believe the books! Experience ALWAYS proves what works.
Joe, stop telling us what the books say! :coffee::coffee:

[44man]

Joe, I have a good idea. I will draw up a spring and send you some steel. You make the spring, harden and temper it, send it back to me so I can break or bend it with the first attempt. I will post pictures! :mrgreen:
You are allowed to use your books.

[runfiverun]

i still get that primer ignition of the powder affects burn and velocity variations.
and yes the primer either fired or it didn't.
but settng at the minimum force required to fire the primer isn't going to effect anything.
unless you have to drive the primer cup down on the anvil to crush the compound.

now a heavy firing pin blow imo will cause some effect to accuracy if it drives the case forward in the chamber as it can be cocked to an extent too.

[44man]

I have watched my Ruger lose accuracy until I was all over the 50 meter chickens. I changed the spring and then shot the same at 200 meters as I was shooting at 50. You will NEVER convince me that just popping a primer is all it takes.
After installing the over power spring in my SBH I took 3 shots for a drop test with my boolit at 200 yd's.
Here are the shots. Now PLEASE show me I am wrong! None of you post those fantastic revolver groups you talk about and most of you don't know there is more distance then 25 yd's.
When a BR shooter proves the theory so well that I have followed it for many years with the same results and none of you have proved it wrong except with what you have thought or read, what am I to think?

[44man]

Many of you have seen this trophy, IHMSA International class production. 79 out of 80 with my SBH. More 39's and 40's then I can count.
Why in the world do you think I am blowing smoke when I am trying to help you shoot better?
You read a magazine where some guy says a gun shoots great with a 2" group from a Ransom rest at 25 yd's and believe it.
I get the fits when I can't break 1" at 50 yd's with a revolver. Some of mine will do under 1" at 100 yd's. I have kept 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yd's with my .475 BFR and clang rams at 500 meters with my 45-70 BFR.
I try to pass along what I have learned and all I get is static.
Well darn it, prove it to me. A lot of you pay over $2000 for a gun or send one in to have all kinds of custom work done, yet I will outshoot them with an out of the box Ruger or BFR because I know what makes them shoot.
I find too many of you will dispute me without ever trying anything but what you have been doing for years. Yet no proof is ever posted. I am NOT afraid to post groups, good or bad. I have even been accused of hiding hits not in the group, got news for you, if I get a flier, it is posted. I think I have posted more pictures on this site then everyone else combined.
It gripes me when someone posts drival by some EXPERT without ever proving the facts tested by themselves. I have done the work, don't quote other people until you prove it. I prove for myself everything I read and some is crap and some is true.
If you don't agree with me yet can't prove it because you throw something you read at me instead of doing your own work, you lose credibility.
I did not join this site to argue but to offer ideas for all of you to try. There are super smart guys here that see what I am saying and I learn from them too. I don't know it all either. No one does.
But to flat out quote someone else to jump down my throat is wrong. I don't believe ANYTHING until I prove it.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Hey 44man, Nice wood on the flinter! Dare I ask how many coats were rubbed in? I also have seen that trophy before, nice control getting it. Hey Cajun, I hate to see ground springs myself, seen em bend or just plain break. I used trapper springs or wolfe mostly. Yes I did change them out on a fairly regular basis, including the main spring that I eased off on. I had my system for shooting that way down or else I wouldn`t have been shooting comp. I carried full strength springs for duty carry and other "social" events. Hunting and silouette spring strength were also stock poundage but smoothed actions. I agree I`ve seen some strange arrangements informal and competing wise. I guess people probably thought we were strange too for our preferences. Stay out of trouble guys. 44man is your B-day this mo. 18th? :coffee: Robert

[cajun shooter]

44 Man, I think my post backed up what you are saying 100%. I too get upset with magazine theory. Alot of these guys make a very nice living by passing on info that would fail in the real world of doing. I think this site is like any other place where you have an exchange of idea's. Some of them are outstanding and I use them right away and others I look at and grin. As I would tell my cops in my firearms classes; the bridges that fall were also designed by engineers. Meaning that you always have the human factor involved. That's one test that shows both winning and losing. That's why I have a brief wording from the Man in The Arena speech for my signature.

[cajun shooter]

Felix, When in Springfield at Smith I met several of the armorers. Archie I don't recall. I had all my classes under John Contro and Steve Murray. In all total I went to 5 S&W schools. I also had a auto pistol class there and my 61 year old mind can't recall the instructors, If I pull my paper work I'll find it. I even spent time at John's house in Chester Vermont. Beautiful area.

[44man]

Hey 44man, Nice wood on the flinter! Dare I ask how many coats were rubbed in? I also have seen that trophy before, nice control getting it. Hey Cajun, I hate to see ground springs myself, seen em bend or just plain break. I used trapper springs or wolfe mostly. Yes I did change them out on a fairly regular basis, including the main spring that I eased off on. I had my system for shooting that way down or else I wouldn`t have been shooting comp. I carried full strength springs for duty carry and other "social" events. Hunting and silouette spring strength were also stock poundage but smoothed actions. I agree I`ve seen some strange arrangements informal and competing wise. I guess people probably thought we were strange too for our preferences. Stay out of trouble guys. 44man is your B-day this mo. 18th? :coffee: Robert
I hunted with and killed a huge pile of deer with that flinter, Also won many groceries. It has been so long since I made it I forget. but I filled the grain with many coats then put 4 more on it. It was a toss together from cheap parts and a short plank of maple I had left. I got the barrel in trade for something. It is a Douglas.
Yes, my B day is the 18th.

[colbyjack]

my 625 wont shoot factory ammo, i can get 1 out of 6 to pop with cci primers. i use federal 150's and get 100% ignition. im running it Double action only IPSC gun. 5 1/2 pound DA pull, light and sweet. with this the primers need to be seated slightly below flush. i go back through and re seat primers by hand after they come out of the press. crank on the strain screw or put a shim in the field like a piece of a business card in there and i can get it to pop any ammo. but this is my USPSA/IPSC only gun. -chris

[Heavy lead]

Many of you have seen this trophy, IHMSA International class production. 79 out of 80 with my SBH. More 39's and 40's then I can count.
Why in the world do you think I am blowing smoke when I am trying to help you shoot better?
You read a magazine where some guy says a gun shoots great with a 2" group from a Ransom rest at 25 yd's and believe it.
I get the fits when I can't break 1" at 50 yd's with a revolver. Some of mine will do under 1" at 100 yd's. I have kept 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yd's with my .475 BFR and clang rams at 500 meters with my 45-70 BFR.
I try to pass along what I have learned and all I get is static.
Well darn it, prove it to me. A lot of you pay over $2000 for a gun or send one in to have all kinds of custom work done, yet I will outshoot them with an out of the box Ruger or BFR because I know what makes them shoot.
I find too many of you will dispute me without ever trying anything but what you have been doing for years. Yet no proof is ever posted. I am NOT afraid to post groups, good or bad. I have even been accused of hiding hits not in the group, got news for you, if I get a flier, it is posted. I think I have posted more pictures on this site then everyone else combined.
It gripes me when someone posts drival by some EXPERT without ever proving the facts tested by themselves. I have done the work, don't quote other people until you prove it. I prove for myself everything I read and some is crap and some is true.
If you don't agree with me yet can't prove it because you throw something you read at me instead of doing your own work, you lose credibility.
I did not join this site to argue but to offer ideas for all of you to try. There are super smart guys here that see what I am saying and I learn from them too. I don't know it all either. No one does.
But to flat out quote someone else to jump down my throat is wrong. I don't believe ANYTHING until I prove it.

44man, let it out.
I don't know 44man, only through this site. I read his posts quite a bit, don't post back much, just listen. About 3, 4 months back, can't remember which thread he was giving someone, who I can't remember some advice on shooting a revolver accurately. At first I was a little taken back, maybe even a little resentful, but I tried what he suggested, and whatdayaknow. He was spot on. He diagnosed something that I was doing as well as the other gentleman he was trying to help (and took a little flack for it too, as I remember). So anyway, my point is for myself taking advise from him has helped my revolver shooting immensly. So thanks 44man, don't stop posting your experiences so far I've found you correct with the suggestions I've tried.

[felix]

Archie was in the field quite a bit extending good will after having got the "reputation" for doing Dirty Harry's gun. ... felix