Driving bands

[NSP64]

What about using copper wire cast into boolits as driving bands????

[docone31]

Wow, that would be an issue.
First, I think they would have to be tinned. That way, the molten alloy could attach itself to the driving bands.
Second, What fun it would be to put cool, tinned rings into an hot mold and have them actually stay there through the molding process.
I would think, an half jacket, pre tinned, might be easier. It would far simpler to put one large ring into the mold, than several smaller ones.
I had wondered that also. I never figuired out a way for myself.
I mean, why not?
An half jacket acting as a gas check/jacket, cast into the boolit. Should size easy also, as it would be an integral part of the casting. Same with rings if that would be possible.
Good food for thought. If anyone figuired it out, I would definately give it a go.

[NSP64]

I was thinking of one large gauge wire in each driving band like they do on steel artillary rounds. We are on reduced workload (lucky to still have a job), so I think I'll try some. Then run them through the sizer wouldn't need lube if the ojive is a bore rider. What is that saying about idle hands....:twisted:

[docone31]

I would still tin them though. That way there would be a bond between the casting, and the wire. Might come in handy in the sizer die.
There is high temp, phosphorus based flux, copper solder that comes in wire form. I have a plasma welder for my gold repairing, so a welding shot on each wire would insure integrity.
I can see a lot of possibilities for that, and some real hassles also.
That is why I went to paper patching.
I can cast anything, probably zinc, size it down, wrap it, resize it, and get jacketed velocities with it. No Key Holes either.
I mostly need a long cylinder with a nose. The lube lands smooth right out.
I had tossed around casting with copper bands. Just never wanted to make my own mold, or had a rolling mill, or precise cutting abilities.
I do not see why not though. I bet it has even been tried before.
I think mass production leads us to think things can only be one way.

[mrbill2]

Gentlemen
Get your hands on a copy of NRA Illustrated Reloaders Handbook. Page 109, Refinements in Cast Bullets by E. H. Harrison. You can read about the idea of using copper driving bands in bullet molds, that has been done in the past.
Mr. Bill

[runfiverun]

and everyone who has tried it says the copper rings are a pita.
i took a 308 spire point mold opened it up and put pieces of copper tubing in it
and pour through it.
works fine but have only shot bout 700 of them so far.
they are hard to size, even with lube.
but since they are 312 the 303 7.7 and 7.65's seem to like them at around 2,000 fps.
a canellure is recommended,two is better.

[docone31]

Yeah, since I use Lee Molds, I can just picture opening the mold, dropping the castings, placeing two hot copper rings in one side of the mold each cavity, closing the mold without jamming the rings, then pouring another set.
I get a little shaky after casting for a bit, and I can just see myself putting the rings a little askew, fixing the issue, then casting when the mold has cooled a bit.
Wrinkles, voids, and in general hassles.
I could see a single cavity mold, with a copper jacket that sets in a spot in the mold. I might not shake that loose as I close the mold.
Rings would be much easier than an half jacket to size. Both will be more effort than simple lead castings.
Might be worth it though.
My .303 British might like it.
Maybe someday I will try it.

[flounderman]

didn't Barnes have banded bullets a long time ago? I don't remember if you bought the bullet from barnes or there was a mold for it

[JeffinNZ]

There is an article in my '97 Handloaders' Digest about a guy shooting a .30-40 Krag and he used a bullet with copper wire on it.

What are you trying to achieve? Sounds like a lot of work.

[NSP64]

What are you trying to achieve?

Not a thing, bouncing ideas on a cold night:drinks:

[docone31]

I have read of bullets that were wrapped with wire. Also cases made from wire, mesh, etc.
I would have to wonder, if a way to wrap with wire might not be simpler than casting through a wire band.
I would imagine, a simple winding jig would wrap uninsulated copper wire. If the last band was to diameter, it would prevent the wire from being sized off. If the wrapping jig had three rollers, it would wrap, and size at the same time.
Much simpler to paper patch.
That though is not the point of this.
Making an accurate, full tilt, simple casting with no leading, and no issues using copper bands and still maintaining the simplicity of casting.
I could see, for example, wrapping 16guage copper wire around a mandrel, removeing it from the mandrel, and setting it up in a jig for cutting much like I make my jump rings.
With a known thickness of .051, it could be calculated to find the size. The gap from cutting would allow for sizing. Sizing would make flat surfaces on the wire. The mold could be machined to allow the rings to be placed into it. The wire before cutting could be drawn through molten tin after soaking in a flux bath, to control temperature before drawing, and prevent oxidation prior to tinning. The wire could then be drawn through a draw plate specific for that application. It would just shave any oversize tin. The tin would melt low enough so the molten lead would make a bond. This way, any sizing would not loosen the ring.
The rings would be sized, leaving the casting the diameter of the lube rings, rather than the driving bands. The wire would be annealed with tinning allowing for sizing at least once without excess work hardened resistance.
Basically, the mold would be the thickness of the lube lands, the wire would be the diameter. A person would have to premake the rings to make it worth while. Not just 20, or 30. Several hundred at a time. This way the tinning would be a match, the sizes would be the same. The rings would have to be preheated during casting.
Boy, does that sound like fun!
I don't see why it would not work though.
That is my .02, after many years of tossing that around without any machineing experience, and untill now little casting experience. At least in low temperature metals.
I just picture little hot rings in my lap, on the floor, slipping out of my tweezers, jamming the mold, getting lead between the mold sides and getting serious wings. On, and on.
I bet though, it will actually work.
I hope someone tries this one day.
It will be great to watch.

[NSP64]

What about just ordering some copper washers, say .310 with a .250 hole in the middle from China;) ordered buy the thousand.

[jhalcott]

A couple fellows I hunted with many years ago bought a mold that used a 3/8" copper tubing inserted into the mold before pouring in the lead. It made a 250 or 300 grain .375 bullet if my memory is correct. The would use a tubing cutter to make the tiny tubes. Then place them on a hot plate and when they and the melt was hot,drop a tube into the mold using needle nose pliers. Immediately close and fill the mold.They said the alloy around the bottom of the tube SHOULD keep it from coming off in the bore. I didn't get involved with this . I could see a partial bore obstruction in the making and said so. I don't know if they had any problems from it though.

[docone31]

That tubing concept was one thing I was tossing around myself.
I never had the courage, or means to even attempt something like that. Even thin walled tubing is twice at least jacket material thickness.
Now that commercial bullets are getting pricey, things like this might be a reality.
Possibly brass tubing found in hobby stores?
Too bad you never heard more on the sleeve idea.
Maybe the thickness is not an issue though, solid copper bullets seem to do well. They mike the same as conventional jacketeds.
Cut to length, anneal, push thru a push thru sizing die, anneal again, pickle, heat, and cast.
Perhaps if the push thru sizing die had the push rod with a center that kept the copper from wrinkleing during sizing.
Another idea. Figuiring the length prior to sizing should not that big an issue. Just cut some and measure from start to finish. I could see where the base of the casting would act like a gas check, just in reverse. Put a crimp groove about half way on the tubing and it will act as a stop midway also.
Hmmmm. Interesting idea.

[longbow]

I've seen pictures of boolits cast into copper tubing as well.

If memory serves, they were a boattail design and I am pretty sure the lead diameter after casting was larger than the the tube ID but smaller than the tube OD so it would be difficult (maybe not impossible) to shed them in the barrel.

I also saw something on a mould that used the copper washer idea at the base ~ similar in principle to the Corbin swage on washer scrapers.

I think unless copper or brass tubing in the right OD was readily available for using in a mould paper patching is likely much less trouble.

Copper wire wrapping might not be too bad if you had a split mould made up with no grease rings then ran a tap into it to provide a spiral to wrap copper wire into. How to keep the ends from lifting though?

Longbow

[runfiverun]

you fold the ends in and they lock into the lead.
years ago there was a commercial bullet that was done with wire wrapping.
actually copper tubing from the hard ware store works fine
now rigid tubing is the right size for some applications.
if you wanna take this a bit further.
some casings are close enough for using as bullets too. 380'and 9mm for the 375 win.
oversized 40 s&w like those fired in a glock are pretty close to 429 o.d.
32 acp you guys get the idea.

[44man]

Just do this. Punch the center out of gas checks and set in the mold.

[docone31]

44man, how did the addition of the second check work out?
That looks like it was a pain to do, but it sure looks cool.
Does it make a difference in the load?

[docone31]

Another thought,
What if.....
The Freechex tool, was lengthened to make a taller gas check? Almost like swageing a cup only smaller.
I could see where sizing it on, the case neck would add to hold it on, and the pressure of firing would keep it to the casting during the barrel journey.
I do not think aluminum cans would be used, but copper flashing run through a rolling mill, then punched to size, and formed.
That might almost be simpler to make an half jacket.
Hmmm.

[NHlever]

There were some detailed articles in the "Bullet Making Annual" magazines put out for a few years by Wolfe Publishing. Both wire wrapped, and punched out gas checks inserted in the molds were covered, and make very interesting reading. I don't know if Wolfe has reprints, or those books on CD, or not. If there is a real interest, I can try scanning my articles, and posting them if that is legal.

[Scrounger]

Yes, those are available on DVDs, I have them.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/listing.cfm?subcategoryid=142

[Wayne Smith]

And they are well worth the cost. I have them also.

[snuffy]

Very interesting, BUT the use of pure copper for barrel contact is one of the problems the original barnes solid copper bullets had. Gilding metal has zinc in it to make it harder/foul less.

You'd be trading leading with copper fouling, without much gain in velocity.

[NSP64]

I believe I accomplished my goal:drinks: Thinking outside the box. Not reinventing the wheel, but maybe improving it.

[docone31]

A rattler of cages eh?
Good for you.
Got them out of the box. We might need that down the road.

[44man]

44man, how did the addition of the second check work out?
That looks like it was a pain to do, but it sure looks cool.
Does it make a difference in the load?
I don't have a problem with any boolit, even PB so I am not sure it is worth the trouble unless soft boolits are shot. It might just do the trick if expansion is needed with a fast revolver like the 45-70.
They are easy to put in with tweezers and when the blocks are shut, push to seat with a dowel, then cast normal.
I have trouble on deer with my 45-70 BFR. Even with a WFN, they go through deer so fast that internal damage does not even equal a .44.
I am going to soften my boolits for next season so this will make a good experiment. I need to make another punch set for the .45 checks.

[PatMarlin]

Just found this thread, and I've been working on an idea for 22cal along the lines of what you guys are discussing here. Figured it's been done before in some form or the other.

I guess shooters minds work in simular ways,.., :mrgreen:

Anyway I will be posting my results when finished if they pan out.

[l-weinrich]

I tried dissolving copper sulfate in water and leaving the cast boolits in the solution for a while. They came out copper plated nice and shiny I was doing it to wadcutters to improve accuracy but it did not make a difference that I could tell. Thinking about it now It might be useful to increase the diameter. Did not need electricity or anything like that.

[NSP64]

I tried dissolving copper sulfate in water and leaving the cast boolits in the solution for a while. They came out copper plated nice and shiny I was doing it to wadcutters to improve accuracy but it did not make a difference that I could tell. Thinking about it now It might be useful to increase the diameter. Did not need electricity or anything like that.

Well you can't just leave us hanging, do tell more. Pictures are good too.

[l-weinrich]

I am new here and have not tried posting pictures yet, I will try to do so. I purchased the copper sulfate at a feed store/garden center I think it was used for some sort of pest or insect control.

[NSP64]

you can go to the testing area to try pics. If you click on the paperclip at the top of the 'reply to thread' box you can upload pictures, then x out of the attatch box, click the paperclip again and your attached pics will be there. click on them then hit enter.

[Boerrancher]

Another thought,
What if.....
The Freechex tool, was lengthened to make a taller gas check? Almost like swageing a cup only smaller.
I could see where sizing it on, the case neck would add to hold it on, and the pressure of firing would keep it to the casting during the barrel journey.
I do not think aluminum cans would be used, but copper flashing run through a rolling mill, then punched to size, and formed.
That might almost be simpler to make an half jacket.
Hmmm.

My home grown gas checks come up a bit higher than a standard GC. I make them out of very soft 16 thousandths aluminum. On my 30 cal boolits the GC goes almost all of the way up to the driving band. I will try and get some pics posted later when I have more time.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[leftiye]

Plus 1 on the interest in copper plating. BTW, if the copper ended up deposited on the boolits in that scenario, I'd guess that you had made some lead sulphate at the same time (ie the lead was removed at the time of deposition, and the copper released from the sulphate attached to the boolits).

[PatMarlin]

Here's may latest effort...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=458716#post458716

[The Dust Collector]

Just a thought: When bands or wire rings are placed in a mould prior to casting the boolit, and if the boolit then needs to be sized, seeing that the alloy is softer and less rigid than copper, what is to prevent the copper inserts from shifting during the sizing process? As in being pushed to the nose or base depending on the sizing method.

DUST

[Jetwrench]

The article JeffinNZ mentioned gives the whole ball of wax, how to modify a tubeing cutter,where to find different size tubeing, how to cast with them, and velocity he got with the loads. I believe he sized the tubeing before he cast them on the bullets. It was a good write up I plan on trying it someday. Jetwrench