Christmas Turk

[Ricochet]

Santa left a SOG M1903/38, as they call them, under my tree. I've only done a preliminary degreasing of the action without taking it out of the stock, there's still a bit of cosmoline down in the magazine and likely beneath the wood. Mine was refurbished and converted to 8x57 in 1937. The receiver, bolt and sight numbers all match, and the fonts match as well. Very little bluing's left, and it's got a handsome patina. The walnut stock has been well used but not abused, has obviously been cared for, and needs no finish touchup of any sort. It's got a nice soft sheen of well-rubbed linseed oil. Its cleaning rod is an original looking steel one in good shape, not one of those wavy brass ones you find in the "M38s." It has about the slickest bolt action I've ever felt. Puts all my other bolt rifles to shame for action feel. The only downside is its well worn bore. It's not a slick sewer pipe like the 1941 K. Kale I have, but the lands are low and well rounded. I haven't slugged it to check bore dimensions. I'll have to shoot it to see if it'll hit anything. It looks about like the well-worn take-off barrel I bought to put on my K. Kale.

The front sling swivel's a bit odd to me. The rear one is a fixed, flattened oval, nearly rectangular, about 1 1/4" across the widest inside dimension and about 1" across the flat part of the bottom. Pretty much like the K. Kale's swivels and the ones on my Vz24 and M24/47. But the front one is D-shaped, very round on the free side (a bit asymmetrical, it's been bumped), the maximum inside dimension being about 3/4".

It's certainly a welcome addition to my small but growing collection. I hope to get out and try shooting it in the next few days.

I don't yet have any loading dies, reloadable brass or mould(s) for 8x57. I've been shooting the milsurp stuff, all Turkish so far, with some '50s Yugo due to arrive in a couple of days. Having 5 8x57 Mausers now, it's about time to start experimenting with loads.

[Ricochet]

This rifle's got a triangular section of wood missing on the right side of the stock along the right receiver rail. The base of the triangle's at the rear. About 1/2" high by 1 1/2" long. It obviously happened long ago, the edges have been smoothed and finished over with linseed oil. I figured, well, it got knocked against something. But tonight I examined it more closely and saw that the receiver rail has an irregular dent/gouge that follows the main outline of the wood defect. The most likely thing I can think of that would leave such a mark is a shell fragment. In that case, the commonly claimed "blood pitting" just might be the cause for the small pits on the action, though they could be rusting from normal causes as could always be the case. The main pits are concentrated on the left rear of the action, on the end and top side of the safety in the "FIRE" position, on the bolt release (which has the biggest concentration) and a few on the top surface of the bolt. (Almost like a spray pattern.) The receiver's pit-free, but all of its original markings were polished off in 1937. Another small, deep rectangular perforation on the left side of the stock is right over the joint of the stock and handguard, punched right down to the barrel, looking like the imprint of a small shell splinter. This rifle was in the possession of the Turkish Army during the Balkan Wars of 1911-13 and WWI and certainly could've been hit, as I believe it has been, twice. Probably wasn't healthy for the Turkish soldier carrying it. It seems to have lead a busy but peaceful life since its 1937 refurbishment, with the wood kept smooth and well rubbed with linseed oil, and the metal free from rust though with the blue nearly all worn off and the bore nearly shot out. I'd bet lots of recruits have carried it, drilled with it and fired it. Now the old war horse has been put out to pasture.

[waksupi]

For all of us Mauser nuts, Shotgun News currently has out an issue specifically on Mausers. Covers most major developments, along with a more or less complete article series on doing your very own Bubba job on them.
I don't know how widespread the distribution is on this issue, as it is not on all the newstands around here, just stumbled across it in a store I don't regularly patronize.

[StarMetal]

and there we have it....Battlefield Detective...by Ricochet

Good job John

Joe

[Ricochet]

Thanks, Joe! :D

That small puncture on the left side of the stick doesn't go quite to the metal of the pipe, there's compressed wood at the bottom. It is very sharply punched out in a rectangle, obliquely sited across the seam between the upper and lower pieces. Had to have been done very rapidly. I think a shell splinter did it.

The irregular object (shell fragment) that took the wood off on the right side gouged a wavy groove in the steel that follows the angle of the missing wood piece, and dented the steel visibly, though not enough to cause the bolt to bind. It has a very nice, smooth action, which of course may be because it's had so much use over the years since it was struck that it's worn away the bulge on the inside.

Wish I had a good way to take high resolution "macro" pictures.

If nothing else, this confirms that the rifle's stayed together since new, somewhat of a rarity among these old things. It helps that the '03 bolts won't exchange with the other '98 types they had, or the '93 types. But they got swapped around among themselves a lot, and as a poll running currently on http://milsurpshooter.net/ in the "Turkish" forum shows, many that have matching numbers have the bolt numbers in a different font than the ring. Probably got rematched in the '30s refurbishment.

The Turks lost a huge number of these things in the Balkan Wars and WWI. There were only some 200K made in the first place. During WWI they were facing a bigger shortage of bangsticks than the Russians. That's how they came to get so many surplus G88s from the Kaiser, followed after the Armistice by buying up lots of G98s, then in the '20s buying nearly all (~60K) of the Czech's 98/22s.

These pieces get no respect because they've been sold cheaply. Most have been bought to cut down and make "deer raffles" out of. It grieves me to see it happen, just as it does when someone buys a nice old '50s Harley and makes a chopper, or chops and channels a nice old '34 Ford. There are plenty of nice modern actions, stronger and better than the old vets. I wish they'd leave 'em alone. I don't respect what the "custom rifle builders" are doing with 'em, even the ones that are doing it with the highest level of craftsmanship. They're just high-class bubbas. The days when it was a good thing to use a milsurp as the basis for a "custom" are long gone.

[jh45gun]

[QUOTE= The days when it was a good thing to use a milsurp as the basis for a "custom" are long gone.[/QUOTE]


Why? You surely do not save anything on a complete custom job but why in your estimation is it bad now but good back in the pre war and post war era????? I have seen lots of turks that were good for nothing else but to customise them. Worn out bores and bad wood headspacing no good. No good but to look at and I do not own rifles to look at if I wanted to do that I would frame a picture. Now some guns of course if in good shape should be left alone. But these "Bubba" Comments irk me as if I paid for it I will do what I want with the gun expecially if it is not shootable as is.

[Frank46]

Ricochet, I think you are missing the point. And I agree with jh45gun. If the rifle has a shot barrel, termites in the wood then at that point its basically useless. Hanging it on a wall is a waste of space and money. Besides a lot of folks don't have the money to get a custom rifle made up using a pre 64 winchester action, or any of the desirable actions. And if the truth be told I'd be willing to bet that the various ginsmiths, gun parts dealers, and gunsmith parts have really taken off with the influx of cheap turkish, yugo and other import actions. But to chop up lets say a 1950's era belgian 98 in 30-06 to make a deer rifle then I'd have to agree with you. There are plenty of dogs out there that will never be missed due to bad barrels or stocks. Frank

[Ricochet]

OK, I'll agree that using a useless milsurp as the basis of a custom rifle's a good thing, "bringing it back to life" as it were. Same with making a hot rod out of an old junker that couldn't be restored. That's not what commonly happens, though, I think more often it's done with serviceable originals, which IMO is gun butchery. As was said, if it's someone's property they can do with it as they wish, but I think it's shameful to deface a piece of history. I take the view that we're temporary caretakers of these things.

[Ricochet]

I ought to keep my mouth shut about my opinions on things, because I just piss people off without accomplishing anything. :)

I've restored old cars and a Harley in the past, and I'm very conscious of the sad truth that one's got to die so another can live. I fixed up my Panhead FLT with stock pieces that people had pulled off to build choppers. There weren't any aftermarket replica parts then.

How about a truce? http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm

[45nut]

great reading there my friend,,if you thought you don't accomplish anything I beg to differ. My spirits were lifted just now. That is quite the task lately. Thanks.

[Ricochet]

I love that story!

Long ago when I was a young boy, my Dad told me a story that his grandpa told him when he was a little boy. His grandpa, my great grandpa, was in the Confederate Army. (He was from South Alabama.) He fought in the battle of Chickamauga, and then they were bogged down in a waiting game on the southern side of Chattanooga, along Moccasin Bend at the base of Lookout Mountain. During the time they were waiting, the Northerners and Southerners did quite a bit of visiting, without permission from their officers of course. They showed each other pictures of their mothers and sweethearts and talked fondly of home. They played cards and traded a few little things.

When Grant got to Chattanooga, all that came to a halt, and the Battle of Lookout Mountain ensued pretty quickly. Great-Grandpa was proud of having fought in the "Battle Above The Clouds," but by that time he'd gotten very ill. I've heard from family members that he had pneumonia, or that he had dysentery. He certainly could have had either or both. It was cold, and he lacked adequate clothing and shoes. He likely wasn't able to do much real fighting. When the Southerners held the Northerners off on the slopes of the mountain until nightfall, they built decoy "campfires" and slipped away to Missionary Ridge. When the Northerners discovered them the next day, they attacked, and the unit Great-Grandpa was with beat a hasty retreat. He was too sick to go with them by that point, and was left lying on the ground. He said that a Northern colonel on horseback rode up, looked at him and pitied him. (Great-Grandpa was a 16 year old, over 6 feet tall and a handsome fellow normally.) He ordered a soldier to take a greatcoat off of a dead Union officer and put it on him. He let him go, telling him to go home. Took him till nearly the end of the war to make it there, with Odyssey-like experiences along the way. But he made it, and returned to an area in south-central Alabama he'd seen along the way to set up housekeeping with his bride.

If it hadn't been for the kindness of that Union colonel, I certainly wouldn't be here. I want to shake that man's hand in Heaven some day.

[Blackwater]

Rioccochet, FWIW, if anything, I understand about the old milsurps and leaving them as is. I'd wanted an original '03 Springfield that my Dad might have carried in 1930's China, and all that I saw were out of my price range until I found one dated '28 on barrel and '29 on receiver. A friend beat me to it, but I asked if he'd consider parting with it a week later, and it came home with me. Now I've got it with sling, oiler, cleaning gear, etc., including the long 16" bayonet just like the one I have a picture of Dad with from his early USMC years. I'd fight to the death to keep that one as is.

However, I've wanted a couple of '03's to make up a sporter that might have been used back in the '30's and '40's, and wound up after getting that good original one, not two but THREE rifles that have already been sporterized. They've been drilled and tapped, and worked over to varying degrees, and I don't mind doing with these already "spoiled" guns what I've wanted to do for years.

Just got one of them reworked, doing considerable work on the stock, making it a schnabble, and working the grip and cheekpiece like I thought it ought'a be, rasping off the monte carlo, etc., and it's now very likely to become my main hunter. Still have some detailing to do, but have some finish on the wood, enough to hunt with, and got it glass bedded, too, so have called a moratorium on it until after deer season closes. Will sight it in and see if I can slay a big ol' buck .... or a flop ear ... with it. Restoring this one to what it ought to have been to start with was, IMO, a gift to it. At least if it can't be a piece of history in military form, it CAN at least be a piece of history from the civilian aftermath between the two Great Wars, which ain't nothin' to sneeze at.

Just got some pics taken, and if I can figure out how to post them, will put them up here for comment. This is just a gun where it all came together for me - balance, weight, length of pull, cheek position - it just FITS and HANDLES like a good sporter from the '30's or '40's OUGHT to. I think I done good to it, and I want to make one of the others into a conventional forearmed sporter, and the 3rd into a sorta' '30's target job with long (27-28") heavy barrel and a Marksman style stock, shaped just so, maybe with a rail and handstop to boot. As they were, they were severely "Bubbaized," but I hope what I've been able to do has at least given them some renewed level of respectability.

I re-realized something during all this, though. As my gunsmith and REAL pro stocker told me, you NEVER really "finish" detailing a good sporter. You just decide to quit nitpicking at some point and finish and checker it. It's no Steven Dodd Hughes rifle, but it's not much of a real "Bubba" any more, either. I've also got a #4 Brit Enfield that I'm waiting on my 'smith buddy to finish a stock to use as a pattern. It's an offhand style, with drop to suit a #1 or #4, and sorta' a combo of Brit and German styles. Has a schnabble forend, slender contour overall, and ought to make a VERY sweet cast bullet shooter. I just built a tool to use in my Dremel that should help polish out the many deep machining marks on the action. It'll be my "Ghost and the Darkness" or "Patterson" rifle. If I ever get to Africa, I think it'd just HAVE to go! It too had already been Bubba'd up, and was non-reversible, so I think that one will also be a worthy treatment, or maybe "restoration" of a worthy rifle.

There are so many Bubba'd rifles around that it doesn't make good sense to use a pristine military one.

BTW, great reading how you did a Sherlock number on the rifle, and deciphered from the clues a bit of its history. You just can't hold one of those old guns and NOT wonder what tales it could tell if only it could talk. Dad never talked about China or any of his experiences much, as is typical of the guys of that generation, but from what I know of those old China Marines, he must have gotten really well acquainted with all the tricks one's sphincter muscle can pull on us. His grandson and then his great grandson will own it in due time, and I'll make darn sure THEY wonder about all that too. That long bayonet sure does help stimulate the imagination, all by itself!

It's good to see folks trying to keep these old pieces of history intact, I think. Many, if not most, will be made into guns that are inferior in most every way to what they could pick up a new Savage for, and there's NO way that metal that old is comparable to the vacuum formed stuff we have now. That's called a "clue" in most places, and many who don't appreciate your comments will likely change their minds on down the road, I think. Not all, but many.

With kids not really being taught history these days, those who become interested in guns, and love a good story, and whose imaginations have been developed, can sit and learn a LOT just by buying a cheaper milsurp rifle. I think that's awfully valuable thing, and they sure aren't making any more of them, as you state. I've already seen certain Mausers that sold originally for $60 to $130 now going for hundreds of dollars, like in $600+ price ranges, and they ARE selling, too, if clean, rare and un-Bubba'd.

Being a tinkerer, I'll keep looking for the Bubbas, and trying to make them into something respectable, so they can hold their heads high once again. Also, if the spit ever hits the fan, I'll have some guns that have ALREADY proven their merit in battle - NOT a small or inconsequential thing! :lol:

Now if I can just post those darn pics!

[Frank46]

Ricochet, you are not getting anyone mad, not at all. You stated your opinion and I respect you for that. Look on any of the auction sites there are plenty of bubbized rifles out there. Folks have two options there. If the bbl is uncut and good then it may be a prime canadate
for restoration given enough time and money. but if chopped and channeled then I would say its beyond restoration and fair game for tinkering. There were 5 1891 argies on gunbroker the last few days. One bubbaized argie started at $130 and I believe it finally went for $375 ouch. Funny thing, one seller had a nice one that had not been messed with.
starting price was $315 the auction ended and for whatever reason it was not sold. As a matter of fact I sometimes look for bubbaized rifles. Being cut up or otherwise unrestorable but with decent wood and a good barrel they really make good fun rifles. Besides they are a good source of spare parts or to use the term truck gun. Frank

[waksupi]

Blackwater, you go throw that Dremel tool out of the door right now, and keep it away from all guns. If you need to polish, you need to do it by hand! I saw one gun totally ruined two weeks ago from Dremel, and see one or two a week that have been damaged by them.

[Ricochet]

Thanks, guys! I do respect fixing up the old sporters and improving the "Bubbaized" ones.

Blackwater, to post a picture you need to first have it posted on the Web somewhere and then put the URL of the picture in your post. A popular site for posting your pictures is:
http://photobucket.com/

[Blackwater]

Waksupi, point well taken. I RARELY use the Dremel, and DO try VERY hard not to, but once in a while, its discretionary use can help in a spot. I'm redoing a couple of guns for a buddy that came out of Katrina'd MS, and the floor plate was a real mess - very heavily and deeply pitted. I'm still amazed at how well it's turned out, and though I'd at first thought the bore was totally gone, a good cleaning with liquid hand soap, mostly, has revealed a nearly pristing 2-groove (I assume Spfld. '03) barrel. The action is a LR Mauser. The trigger guard also has a few deeply pitted spots. I drew out the Dremel, and figured I had nothing to lose, the pitting was so bad. I used the expandable rubber cylinder and a 60 grit sleeve on the floor plate, getting down to the bottom of most pits, and then filed and draw filed, and then went to 220 & 320 wet-or-dry, and finally wet sanded with the worn 320 by the faucet, using water to keep the paper clean and the shavings from clogging or blocking anything, and it actually surprised me by coming out in very useable shape. A lot of work for a low dollar part, but this gun seems to "speak" to me for a number of reasons, and I want to use all the original parts if I can. I think the only replacement parts needed will be a mag spring for the Mauser and a mag spring for the old Ithaca 37 16 ga. Both these guns just seem to have a "spirit" in them, and the devil kinda' made me do it. Well, that and I also wanted to see what I could do. Haven't done much rifle work in a long time, and it was refreshing and educational, not to mention a neat challenge. Both these guns are going to wind up, I think and hope, significantly better than when brand new. The Ithaca particularly, maybe. Will sand stock and receiver together, and remove a mild "hump" from the top of the grip that isn't uncommon in Ithaca pumps. If my buddy who owns them will cooperate, the Mauser will have a wood stock, and I think I may try one more schnabble, despite having sworn off them after the last one I did. These rifles just seem to have some sort of mojo in them, and I think dealing well with them will keep that mojo in them. He originally wanted to get a plastic stock for the Mauser, but wood can be had for the same $, and I wanna' do this one some justice. Anything that survived Katrina and salt water (home only 200 yd. from Gulf shore!) for as long as these two did just HAVE to have some sorta' mojo in them, and I don't want any bad juju fallin' on me for treatin' them less than kindly! ;-)

It's just unbelievable how well these guns have cleaned up. Some surface work and a good blue, and some good polishing of some internal parts, and these two will once again acquit themselves quite finely in the field, I think. I may do my buddy a "favor" and see how that old 2-groove barrel shoots cast before I send it back. Wouldn't wanna' send him a gun that hasn't been "field tested," right? I think he's gonna' spit when he sees them when I'm done.

Sure is good to be back working on guns again. I haven't done much in the past 10-15 years, until recently. Very satisfying hobby, and I've apparently learned a bit in the interim, too. I want to teach my lil' grandson a thing or two. The rascal's really smart, and pays attention, believe it or not, and I think learning more about how they work and why they're formed and modified the way they are ought to stimulate some real interest, satisfy and maybe even intensify his inate curiosity, and maybe get him to read a lot more than he would if we played those @#$%^&* video games or other PC stuff. Kids need to learn very early to wonder about stuff, and to learn how to DO things. By the time he's 12, I'm bettin' he'll be outdoin' ol' grandaddy! HAR! Not a bit proud, either, am I? ;-)

Kids don't get to do much worthwhile stuff these days, don't get their imaginations or curiosity piqued much, and Idle Hands (the old "Devil's Workshop" back when I was bein' raised) DO seem to lead to less than productive behaviors, and even worse, bad attitudes. He got a .223 NEF for Christmas from Dad, and I'm loading some Barnes TSX's for his "deer bullets." They do good work. I'll start teaching him about some of this stuff, giving some shooting lessons, and probably will teach him reloading (let him watch or maybe pull a handle or two), and I think he's going to bit THAT hook like a bass inhaling a bass bug!

Humbling to have a 6 1/2 yr. old grandson who's smarter than yourself, but .... I've done worse!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks, Joe! :D

That small puncture on the left side of the stick doesn't go quite to the metal of the pipe, there's compressed wood at the bottom. It is very sharply punched out in a rectangle, obliquely sited across the seam between the upper and lower pieces. Had to have been done very rapidly. I think a shell splinter did it.

The irregular object (shell fragment) that took the wood off on the right side gouged a wavy groove in the steel that follows the angle of the missing wood piece, and dented the steel visibly, though not enough to cause the bolt to bind. It has a very nice, smooth action, which of course may be because it's had so much use over the years since it was struck that it's worn away the bulge on the inside.

Wish I had a good way to take high resolution "macro" pictures.

If nothing else, this confirms that the rifle's stayed together since new, somewhat of a rarity among these old things. It helps that the '03 bolts won't exchange with the other '98 types they had, or the '93 types. But they got swapped around among themselves a lot, and as a poll running currently on http://milsurpshooter.net/ in the "Turkish" forum shows, many that have matching numbers have the bolt numbers in a different font than the ring. Probably got rematched in the '30s refurbishment.

The Turks lost a huge number of these things in the Balkan Wars and WWI. There were only some 200K made in the first place. During WWI they were facing a bigger shortage of bangsticks than the Russians. That's how they came to get so many surplus G88s from the Kaiser, followed after the Armistice by buying up lots of G98s, then in the '20s buying nearly all (~60K) of the Czech's 98/22s.

These pieces get no respect because they've been sold cheaply. Most have been bought to cut down and make "deer raffles" out of. It grieves me to see it happen, just as it does when someone buys a nice old '50s Harley and makes a chopper, or chops and channels a nice old '34 Ford. There are plenty of nice modern actions, stronger and better than the old vets. I wish they'd leave 'em alone. I don't respect what the "custom rifle builders" are doing with 'em, even the ones that are doing it with the highest level of craftsmanship. They're just high-class bubbas. The days when it was a good thing to use a milsurp as the basis for a "custom" are long gone.

I know four guys in Australia who have a collection of very expensive custom rifles they have had made and two smith's who do this sort of work. The four guys will only use 'junker' rifles and so will one of the smiths ( the other guy doesn't care).

I was at the first smith's shop one day when a client (you are a client when you spend that much money) came in asking about the progress on his custom rifle (all the bells and whistles, he paid a $5000 deposit). The smith said he hadn't started because he had been unable to find a good enough action. The client said, but I gave you an action when I paid my deposit. The smith polietly said, no I wasn't here and you left a rifle with my wife, it is 100% original 1909 Oberndorf and I am not about to pull it apart. The client was gobsmacked. After a bit of negotiation he accepted a pre64 Model70 action in exchange and the work commenced. Naturally that smith gets the bulk of my work when I an in my hme town. I'mm too far away at the moment.

[Ricochet]

My hat's off to that man!

My goodness, wouldn't I love to run across a nice original 1909 Oberndorf (that I could afford)!

I just love the old long military rifles. The short ones, like the K98ks, the Yugo Mausers, '03 Springfields, etc. don't get me nearly as excited. (Though I've got a few snubbies that I really like!)

[Ricochet]

Got out and shot the Turk today. Took along my boy and one of his friends. We put 65 rounds through it, mostly 1942 Turk, 15 rounds of the new 1950 Yugo heavy ball that I just got. Got it pretty hot, really cooked the cosmoline out of it. I'm not worried about the bore, it's nearly smooth already. We went to the plinking area and I didn't try any group testing, but it shoots WAY high! I'm going to have to put a taller front sight blade on it, else shoot slowed-down cast bullets.

My boy's friend fell in love with the old Mauser and wants one of his own. As he's going to be 18 tomorrow, he'll be legal. Told him how to go about getting one ordered by an FFL. May be the start of a new cruffler.

My boy, who'd gotten a bit shy of the centerfire rifles before, liked shooting this one today. I think he'd shot without snugging the butt into his shoulder adequately and gotten himself kicked, but he had no problem with it today.

It was a good time for all of us. I've got the cleaned-up Mauser standing here beside me now.