Fowling shot?

[stringstretcher]

When working up a load and trying them for the first time, I know it is very improtant to get all the copper out from shooting jacketed bullets. My question is, how important is it to shoot fowling shots before shooting for groups and actually what does this do the enhance your accuracy? And should fowling shots be anything different than the load you are trying?

[Bret4207]

IMO if you change lubes or have a completely clean barrel then a fouling shot or 3 helps. I don't notice so much in bores of 35 cal or over, but in smaller bores and definitely in the 22LR when changing brands I notice it. It also shows between a very clean barrel and fouled with jacketed IMO.

I also figure it takes 25-50 shots to establish what a load will really do, other guys will disagree.

[shotman]

I my experience it seems to depend on the rifle. I aways shoot 2 rounds fast to warm up a standard hunting rifle to sight in. then wait 4 or 5 min between shots. A 22 will tend to shoot from cold barrel. A bull type on a hi power tends to shoot good from cold. Just my findings

[44man]

I my experience it seems to depend on the rifle. I aways shoot 2 rounds fast to warm up a standard hunting rifle to sight in. then wait 4 or 5 min between shots. A 22 will tend to shoot from cold barrel. A bull type on a hi power tends to shoot good from cold. Just my findings
Why would you sight a hunting rifle warm? Best to keep the bore fouled for the season and only shoot the gun cold. If it has a tendency to throw the first shot from a cold barrel it needs fixed or sight in based on that shot. I haven't found an animal that will wait for the two fast warming shots! :mrgreen:

[looseprojectile]

unnessary when you shoot loads that leave no fouling!
What is in your bore after you shoot? Eliminate it. Condition the bore before you shoot. Fouling is a bad word, that to me, means something needs to be cleaned out. I try to create a condition in the barrel that is the same before and after shooting.

Life is good

[runfiverun]

your initial shots from a clean bbl are also laying in lube.
from a clean bbl i have noticed it takes from 7 to 11 shots for lube to appear at the muzzle.
it also was noticed on the chronograph that when the lube hit the end of the bbl the variation in velocity leveled off. and became much more consistent.
you could actually watch the velocities rise with each shot, and then level off.

when working with a new load i try and take it to the range under as many different weather conditions as possible.
around here that means spring time cold one day warm the next raining ,snowing.
a load that only works when it is only 30* or 85* isn't much good the rest of the year.

[MT Gianni]

I shake my head at those who need to fire 7 -10 shots to get lube fouling in the bore so it groups well then run home and scrub it out. I leave my guns lube fouled through hunting season and before shooting them in a match. I also scrub out then "re-foul" 22's when changing brands as they foul differently and will not group as tight until re-fouled with the new lube. Gianni

[Doc Highwall]

You can have metal as well as powder fouling. When I go hunting I always hunt with a fouled bore. I let the rifle get cold then fire a shot then let it cool again as long as it takes to simulate hunting conditions when I am sighting it in. When I am done I only run a dry patch through the bore and wipe the out side of the gun with oil so that when I am hunting I have a bore that has no oil in it to throw the shot off. If you were to hunt with a oiled bore you would have to clean and oil the gun after every shot when sighting the gun in to know where the first shot is going from a clean cold oiled bore.

[Larry Gibson]

All good advise about on the general necessity to shoot a couple of "foulers" (conditioners to looseprojectile).

Below are two 10 shot groups I shot yesterday with a M98 Mauser 8x57. The object of the test was to compare the accuracy of Hornady GCs to the accuracy of my own home made GCs. The Hornadys won by .1". That's not enough difference to be conclusive.

The barrel was clean at the beginning of each test string and 2 foulers were fired prior to the 10 shot test strings. You can see where I marked the foulers for each group and they are outside of the circled 10 shot group. The foulers were close enough for hunting deer and I wouldn't have missed the heart/lung area out to 200 yards with them as total group size including foulers of each 12 shot group was 2.25" and 2". Some rifles do throw the 1st one or two shots out of a clean barrel a lot farther out of the group though. That is why testing and knowing where those first fouling shots go is important.

Larry Gibson

[largom]

IMO. It depends upon the barrel, the boolit, and the load. I have some barrels that shoot to point of aim whether clean & dry or fouled "with my load". I also have barrels that shoot better after a couple of foul shots.
I usually hunt with a fouled barrel "just to be sure".
Larry

[adam38654]

I would say about 1 shot per inch of barrel is plenty but it will be different for each gun,lube type,barrel condition,ect.

[Bret4207]

unnessary when you shoot loads that leave no fouling!
What is in your bore after you shoot? Eliminate it. Condition the bore before you shoot. Fouling is a bad word, that to me, means something needs to be cleaned out. I try to create a condition in the barrel that is the same before and after shooting.

Life is good

I think we're speaking of lube fouling, not jacket or powder fouling, the type that destroys accuracy.

[missionary5155]

Looseprojectile
Now I sit here wondering... How to shoot a cartridge and not have ANY fouling ? What possible load could completely consume ALL powder / lube matter? I guess I do not understand what you meant to say.

[runfiverun]

part of my criteria is to not have to clean the bbl for every 5-20- whatever, shots.
but eventually you are going to have something in there you have to clean out.
dry lube,spider web, dust. whatever.
but lube fouling is desired not a big build up, but a coating.
it is better then lead.
i will take a wet lube star if the rifle is shooting it well, then i try and keep the bbl wet between uses.
it seems to lower first shot flyers and the change of impact issues.

[looseprojectile]

I have converted to nearly all micro band boolits. Lee type. Some have gas checks, some don't. Regular lube groove boolits respond nicely also to this method.
I have succeded in making boolits and loads that leave the bore shiny and very very clean. Not a speck of powder or boolit fouling.
I would like to give him credit but haven't chased the posts down. This poster said "Less is better", with liquid alox or Xlox. I believed him. I then thinned the LLA with BBQ starting fluid. A LOT. Coat the boolits using a zip lock bag and stand them on the base and heat with a heat gun to drive off the thinners. When they cool coat them with a thin coat of paste wax using the heat gun to melt the wax and distribute it. I use a heat resistant plastic bowl of some sort. Microwave dinners come in them.
Using the Ranch Dog .432 265 boolit as an example, load twenty grains of H110 in the .44magnum with this boolit and shoot several and look at your bore.
Just amazing.
I started shooting cast boolits in 1956 and have never seen such clean shooting ammunition. Did I say they shoot very clean? You may have to adjust your load for best accuracy. Life is good

[looseprojectile]

Oh, and Larry, damn good shooting. If I were you I would not change a thing.

Life is good

[Larry Gibson]

Re "fowling shot"

So ok, no body mentioned it so I can't resist.

Below are the results of two "fowling shots" :-) !!!!

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Hey Larry----:drinks:
Lucky man, since I moved here I have only seen one pheasant and got it but it was the last one in the county. A bad winter killed all the quail, now there is no use for a shotgun.
How I miss those birds.

[Larry Gibson]

Oh, and Larry, damn good shooting. If I were you I would not change a thing.

Life is good

Well all the cases are loaded so unless I come up with another bunch of 1939 Turk cases I won't change a thing. I was quite pleased to say the least. Especially considering the cast bullet accuracy enhancing things I did not do;

No fire formed, match prepped cases neck sized for concentricity. The cases are unfired 1939 Turk milsurp.

A "hot" berdan primer as that's what's in the Turk cases. No "soft' primer there! with just the primer and fired the flame really comes out the end of the barrel!

The bullets are from a 6 cavity mould with no attempt at sorting by weight or by cavity. Bullets only given a visual inspection.

GC seated, bullet sized and lubed in Lyman 450 without using a pushthrough die first.

Powder was thrown charge using lyman 55. Powder is milsurp 4895. I will concede the dacron filler is accuracy enhancing.

I did not work up this load using these componants. I just used the same load I quickly worked up using commercial cases with the flash holes reamed for a M48 8mm I shoot.

Bullets seated so case mouth just covers lube grooves. No attempt to adjust seating depth to lands.

So it seems that good casting and loading practices will produce good, accurate cast bullet loads if the load is a good one with good internal ballistics and the RPM threshold is not exceded. I think 2 consecutive 10 shot groups at basicly 1 1/2 moa at 100 yards is proof of that. Pretty good "launches", eh? That my home made GCs seem to be as accurate as Hornady's is good too!

Larry Gibson

[looseprojectile]

has veered off a little. Thanks Larry. I am about to embark on the 8mm Mausers. Have three or four of em. Made a check tool and am making checks of .017 copper. Only need a check seater and I am set. Will make one.
Using the Lee 170 grain GC of course. I could just buy a Lee sizer,:roll: .
Do you pre condition your bores? I am using a bore mop and very thin LLA. Works for me. No waiting for the lube star. When the LLA dries out on the mop I dip it into thinner and massage a little, good to go.
Life is good

[Larry Gibson]

has veered off a little. Thanks Larry. I am about to embark on the 8mm Mausers. Have three or four of em. Made a check tool and am making checks of .017 copper. Only need a check seater and I am set. Will make one.
Using the Lee 170 grain GC of course. I could just buy a Lee sizer,:roll: .
Do you pre condition your bores? I am using a bore mop and very thin LLA. Works for me. No waiting for the lube star. When the LLA dries out on the mop I dip it into thinner and massage a little, good to go.
Life is good

No "pre-condition" as such other than shooting the two fouling shots be fore group testing. With many loads in other cartridges the fouling shots go to group at practical cast bullet hunting ranges. That's the "practical" aspect of it. Since I clean between 10 shot groups when conducting load developement I'd be pre- conditioning or shooting two shots. The pre-conditioning sounds interesting with LLA since I mostly use Javelina or Lars 50/50 alox/beeswac for lube anyways. I cast about 600 of the GB C311041s tonight. I'll be away at work for a week so they ill age well and be ready for testing when I get back. Might have to try pre-conditioning with them.

Larry Gibson

[Depreacher]

Larry, Was this target shot with the Lee 170??? Just curious, as I always watch your posts for 8mm load info. I'm too old to read the print on the target picture. Sorry to bother, Mack