Fillers in bottle-necked cases?

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I'd like to know if any of you have tried fillers in cases like 30'06 or 7.62x51.

If so what material was used and what andvantages (if any) were gained by using them.

You tell me your stories, I'll tell you mine ..

Good evening,
Forrest

[grumpy one]

I have experimented with a dacron tuft as filler in the 30-06 when using squib loads of pistol powder with a light plain-base bullet (311255). I did this because the amount of powder was quite tiny in comparison with the case capacity. Results were in all respects unsatisfactory.

Firstly and most importantly, I once made the mistake of pushing the tuft down past the case neck, thus leaving an air space between the tuft and the bullet base. DO NOT DO THIS! The tuft compressed into a dense melted mass which collided violently with the bullet base, and would have ringed the chamber if I had not been using an FN military mauser which is strongly built of quality materials. Each melted, compressed wad (with a rather neat hole through the center due to the primer blast, thus forming a toroid) ended up hot-melted to the rear web of each cartridge case. I did the same thing with a Marlin 336 in 30-30, and did ring the (apparently considerably softer and/or less-supported) chamber. This problem has never arisen when I have ensured that the dacron tuft filled the cartridge case without leaving an air space.

The second unsatisfactory feature of using a dacron tuft was that accuracy was somewhat worse than I achieved without a filler.

Several members of this board use dacron tufts and report improved accuracy, but I think they are only doing this with loads that fill the cartridge case well over half-full with powder. Obviously my pistol powder loads would have only been 10 to 15% of a case-full.

In summary, the use of filler can be dangerous under some circumstances, and many expert shooters recommend that it be avoided. However some experienced shooters have had positive experiences with it. I suggest that you search the topic on this board and read as much of the information as you can.

[mooman76]

I tried both the Dacron filler and drier lint in 2 7x57 mausers I have. They have oversize bores and I don't have a big enough bullet mould for this. They both (drier lint and dacron)seemed to work equally in these two guns. One gun shot dramatically better and the worst of the two guns that had the biggest oversize bore I saw no improvement. I think it acts sort of like a gas check in that it protects the base of the bullet from gas cutting. We told our story but you didn't tell yours yet.

[longbow]

I have been using cornmeal and Cream 'O Wheat in .303 British with pretty good success.

Most recently with 314299 no gas check and also with plain base boolit both over 20 grs. IMR 4227.

So far I have had no trouble with fillers and see advantages to them in both providing 100% loading density for powders that care and also to fill cases when light charges are used so double charging cannot happen. I have used COW over 12 grs. of Unique with the same boolits.

There seems to be some pretty heated discussions about fillers in various threads but so far I have no negative comments about them. I have worked up loads with the fillers and have had no problems. Having said that, .303 British has a fairly small shoulder. A cartridge like .243 Winchester, .22-250, .264 Winchester, 7mm Mag, etc. have large steep shoulders so may present a problem with granular fillers.

I doubt it would be a problem for .30-06 or .308 though.

Here are a couple of websites with filler loads too:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

(if it doesn't take you to the article, you are looking for "Cast Bullets in the Lee Enfield Rifle" by David Southall. He covers fillers and recommends shotgun buffer or COW)

And here:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

This one covers PSB in .308 Win.

Longbow

[Larry Gibson]

I use dacron as filler exclusively. I do not use it as a wad or as a filler with fast powders. I do not not use 'wads" to hold the powder back, I use a filler and then only under certain conditions.

For 'squib" loads I use a fast powder that ignites quickly and uniformly without using a wad of any sort or having to tip the barrel up prior to firing. For such squib loads most often the powder is Bullseye and occasionally Unique.

For "reduced" loads (1400-1700 fps) in bottle neck cases or when using medium weight bullets (130-150 gr) I use a slower pistol/fast rifle powders like 2400, 4227, 4198, 4759 and 5744. I will use one of them that give the expected velocity and accuracy with consistent ignition. Here again I use no filler or wad.

For loads above 1700 fps with medium weght bullets (150 gr in .30 cal for example) I've found 4227, 5744, or 4759 with a dacron filler of 3/4 to 1 1/4 gr to give excellent accuracy and very consistant ignition. A newly developed load and one probably to become a favorite in my M94 30-30s is the GB 312-150-WFN sized .311 over 18 gr of 4759 and a 3/4 gr dacron filler. Velocity out of my 24" M94 Black Shadow is 1910 fps with excellent accuracy. Not a fulle bore load but it is a very comfortable load that can be shot all day long without cleaning the barrel and leaving no leading.

The place I mostly use a dacron filler is with medium and slow powders (less that 90% loading density). The dacron filler is definately a proven accuracy enhancer with these loads. I makes for consistant ignition and cuts down and eliminates vertical stringing. Examples would be with 160-220 gr bullets in .30/31 cals or in the 8mm. I use the dacron filler with the 270 gr cast bullet in the .375 H&H and with 400-510 gr cast bullets in the 45-70. On the other end I use a dacron filler in the .222/.223s, the 6.5x55 and 6.5-280 and the 7x57. The .30/31s is where most of my use is though from the 30-30, 308 CBC, .308W, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R, 7.65, .303 and 30-06. I've loaded many other cartridges over the years using a dacron filler that are too numerous to remember.

The dacron filler under certain circumstances, as mentioned, is a definate accuracy enhancer. It is used to position the powder and keep it positioned next to the primer regardless of the attitude of the rifle when shot. This makes for consistant ignition. Consitant ignition is necessary for consistent accuracy.

BTW; I never have had a dacron filler melt and stick to the base of the bullet. Many times you can see the dacron fluff fluttering down 10-20 feet in front of the muzzle.

Larry Gibson.

[jack19512]

I never have had a dacron filler melt and stick to the base of the bullet. Many times you can see the dacron fluff fluttering down 10-20 feet in front of the muzzle.







I use dacron filler in the 7.62X54 and some others and this is my findings also. I have read about ringed barrels but so far I have not experienced any of this. I have some 7.62X54 loaded right now ready to shoot using the dacron filler. I use only enough to keep the powder next to the primer.

[FirstBrit]

I've worked with various fillers in miltary cases like 308 Win. and 303 Brit. since about 1985. My first efforts were with pure fluffy cotton wool and fast rifle powders like N-110 and Reloder 7. Initially used simply as a powder positioner. Worked well, but I did manage to put a chamber ring in my Steyr SSG 69 ( 308 Win.). Not absolutely sure of reload data since I didn't notice it straight away and didn't really experience any sticky-bolt syndrom or other symptoms. My suspicion is that I used a fluffy material sold her in Germany for cosmetic purposes with the material heading "Viskose". Now, I know that the definition of Viskose here in Germany is a bi-product from cellulose ( wood-pulp) production. But my suspicion is that there is some amount of synthetic material in there. A couple of years later I put another ring in a K-98 system re-build as .308 Win. using "old" reloads that had accumulated over the years. Again, not noticeable immediately but only after cleaning the cases and resizing were the slight ring formation observed. Not really so pronounced as in some reports, but very niggling and costly! Since then I have moved away from the "fluffy" fillers and use the powder/granular fillers like Super Grex or Special Mix # 47. Although today I use a locally sourced product based on PE ( polyethylene). Sofar I have had good results with these filler types and no "accidents" to date. However, I use this filler only in combination with the moderate rifle powders like N-140. In comparing these two basic systems I found the system with N-140 and complete case filler to be more tolerant accuracy wise to small variations in reloading process than the N-110 with a simple powder positioning filler. With N-110 just small changes to Pmax ( my gestimate) brought about by temperature variation, bullet seating depth, necksizing vs FLS etc. were enough to bring accuracy off the boil. With N-140 however such changes/alterations didn't seem to have such a dramtic effect to accuracy.

Best regards,
FirstBrit, Germany.

[primersp]

i use kappock like filler in 257 rob, 30-30 win ,30-284 and 458 win in this cartridge
less filler the flash primer locks the bullet in the throat and dont burns the powder
in all caliber is vectan tu 2000 .
the filler are projected 4 m behind never stuck at the bullet.

have a nice day

[jonk]

I've used dacron, PSB, and Pufflon.

The pufflon really did well in my Mauser 71 with smokeless powder but alas, it is pricey.

The PSB I've only just started with so can't really comment yet.

The dacron showed some improvement in my 30-06 rifles using low charges of 4895. However it never was the most accurate load either so I dropped it. But shooting, say 30 gr of powder with vs. w/o the filler was quite a dramatic difference in accuracy for the positive.

I don't see the need to use it with fast burning powders such as bullseye, unique, red dot, 4759, etc.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I've used Cream of Wheat in 30/30 between 2 grs of Bullseye and .311 round ball. I wanted the COW to hold the ball in place protruding from the case neck as it fed from the magazine of my Mod 94. It didn't work. Ball was pushed back into the case neck and the case would not feed. Single shotting them worked fine and was very quiet. A great skunk killer in my small town. I also backed the load down to 1.5 grains Bullseye and stuck the plug of COW near the end of the barrel a couple of times. So I boosted the load back to 2.0 grs Bullseye. Velocity is approx 500 fps.

[Irascible]

I have succesfully used Powdered Poly shot buffer from Graf and Sons. I use it in my 348, 45-70 and 35 Winchester. I choose a Lee scoop which will fill the case at least half way up the neck with filler and then compress the filler with the bullet. There is no doubt it will hold the powder in place and the accuracy has been primo. Shot a nice Bear with the 45-70 using a 350gr Old West moulds, PB bullet + the filler over a load of 4198 which gave me 1900fps.
I took the 35 Winchester to Canada after Caribou, but didn't find one I wanted to shoot (let 4 small bulls walk and 1 large one which was farther than I wanted to shoot). That was a load of Rel 7 + buffer + a 250gr, Flat nose, "Hammerhead" bullet from Old West moulds. It was going 2012 fps. When I got back I re-checked the loads and they performed the same after a week of damp walking around and a lot of flying.

[Maven]

Forrest, I've tried powdered bran (Quaker brand, run through an elec. coffee mill), aka bf, and poly-filler, aka Grex or Spherical Shot Buffer, in the .30-06, the 7.5 x 55mm (K-31), the 7.62 x 54R and the 8 x 57mm, but only with very slow burning milsurp powders, i.e., WC 860 and IMR 5010, LR magnum primers, and CB's weighing more than 175grs. The results were mixed in that either filler made little meaningful difference* used in conjunction with WC 860, but a statistically significant one with IMR 5010. Moreover, with 5010, the poly- filler did a better job of reducing extreme velocity spreads (and standard deviations) in all of the above mentioned cartridges. I should also add that I generally used 48 & 49gr. charges of 5010 and 1.0cc (Lee dipper) of either filler, with the exception of the 8mm Mau., which needed only 0.3cc.

Hope this answers your questions.


*The only 2 cartridges in which I found the poly- filler + WC 860 + LR mag. primers combination made a difference were the 7.62 x 39mm (~145gr. CB) and the 7.65 x 53mm (195gr. CB). In both instances, I could reduce the powder charge by at least 1gr. (13gr. and 43gr., resp.) and got case necks that were extremely clean, especially in the 7.65 x 53mm.

[Larry Gibson]

Here's 2 groups I shot today testing different GCs. These are from my M98 M24/47 8x57. Cases and primers were 1939 Turk. Bullet was the GB C325-190-FN cast of 60/40 WW/linotype. Bullets were sized .325 and lubed with javelina. The load was 31 gr of milsurp 4895 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler. Velocity for each 10 shot group was right at 1800 fps. SD was les than 20 and ES less than 50 for each 10 shot string. The 10 shot groups sizes are 1.55" and 1.65" with the first 5 shots of each going into 1". This shows the obvious advantage that the dacron filler can provide.

A complete description of the test can be found on the Group Buy results forum.

Larry Gibson

[Mavrick]

I've loaded some midrange loads with boolits with fillers, in bottle-necked cases.
The idea that I have is to load some low-velocity stuff that I can carry around in my pocket, or on my belt, to pop small-game for dinner. The "needs" are for slow, non-expanding, for lessened damage, and to hit in the right spot at close(say 50yards) range without adjusting the sights.
The guns I've worked with are an M94 .30/30, an M722 .300 Savage, an M98 .25x2(a wildcat similar to a .25 Souper) , an M1917 Enfield .300 WinMag, and an M94 .25/35(Impoved).
Almost all my testing is over an Oehler Chonotach, so I can compare powders, and fillers.
If the velocities are in the 1200-1500fps range, the powders are quick, like Bullseye, WW231, 700X, and Accurate #2. The filler I use is Dacron "fluffed" up to take up as much room as possible, to hold the powder against the primer, but not increase the "ejecta" any more than necessary. It appears to be better with a filler for consistency, and accuracy.
If the velocity-range is 1500-2000fps, the better powders would be Unique, Herco, 2400 or 4227. Here the "need" would be less evident. Sometimes, the filler works...sometimes, not so much.
Above 2000fps, the powder would take up more space, so the filler would be less needed. Powders like 4198, 4895, and 3031 can do the job well, eventho' 4895 is quite location-sensitive, so works better when it has a little filler.
I am definitely NOT a fan of reducing the SLOW-burning powders like 4350, 4831, and 7828 to get low velocities, with OR without fillers.
I've never "ringed" a barrel, nor do I find a "plug" of filler stuck to the base of fired boolits.
Sometimes, especially @ lower velocities, I find a "puff" of something go downwind, but there seems to be no residue, otherwise .
I'm Not a fan of COW and the others in BOTTLE-NECK CASES, Dacron, or Grex or something similar work too well, tho' I'm afraid powder will "migrate" into Grex.
Have fun,
Gene

[Maven]

"...tho' I'm afraid powder will "migrate" into Grex."

Gene, Left to its own devices, Grex WILL migrate into the powder charge, but the solution is deceptively simple: You store the loaded rounds with the bases/primers up or facing you.

[Mavrick]

The storage isn't the problem...The walking around while hunting is. You're thinking of target competition, and I agree, but I want to use the rifle for small, incidental, game.
Have fun,
Gene

[Maven]

Gene, In that case I think Iwould avoid fillers altogether. However, bran, powdered or "straight" may be a better choice. As I wrote in my earlier post, I only use 1.0cc in .30cal. (metric or English meas.) cartridges.

[Larry Gibson]

The storage isn't the problem...The walking around while hunting is. You're thinking of target competition, and I agree, but I want to use the rifle for small, incidental, game.
Have fun,
Gene

That's exactly why I went to a dacron filler in the first place; to prevent migration of the powder past a wad during handling and from recoil while in a magazine. Haven't had a single problem with the dacron filler.

I did a test over on the single shot forum for the guys there measuring pressures and velocities while using dacron vs COW. Notice i still use dacron;-)

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

strangely enough that is why i went with the dryer lint as i feel it holds the powder better when being jostled around or being fed from a magazine.
it is also easier for me to get in the case.
i now [my loads,and guns] seem to prefer a bit lighter load and a filler.
the dryer lint does seem to leave a bbl a bit dryer, but doesn't seem to affect accuracy.

[BruceB]

The question of powder migration into the filler material arose here a couple of years back.

Taking a plastic tube of slightly-over .50" diameter, I dropped a powder charge in the bottom and then installed a dacron tuft using my normal technique (tuft a bit larger than airspace, pushed in JUST until contact is made with powder, remainder of dacron tuft outside mouth or barely inside mouth).

I then placed a .50 bullet in the mouth to finish seating the dacron. Because the bullet was a bit insecure, I drilled the tube and bullet for a crosspin to ensure it would be held in position. I then carried the "loaded round" in my jeans pocket for over a week, day and night. NOT A SINGLE GRANULE CHANGED LOCATION.

4198 may have been the powder used for the test, but I'm not sure at this late date. Anyway, I'm sure that similar results will be obtained with finer-grained powders as well. Hmmm.....maybe I'll just try it with 296 or something like it, to be absolutely certain.

The advantage of the plastic tube is, of course, that we can SEE what happens, with no guessing involved.

[Mugs]

I've used a load of 748 in 7 BR with dacron and never had a problem with migration.
Mugs

[Mavrick]

It appears that the consensus is Dacron in a bottle-neck case. I presume you're talking about a hunting/carry situation. I believe that the only trouble that you'll run into with Dacron, or similar stuff, is when you push so much in that it becomes a plug when shot.
Have fun,
Gene

[Maven]

Mavrick, Search our archives for BruceB's post on dacron filler. What he doesn't know about it can't be known! Fortunately, he has generously shared that knowledge with us.

[w30wcf]

FAsmus,
For years, a friend of mine shot a load of 28 grs. of RL-7 topped with PSB under a 210 gr. cast bullet in a M70 .30-06 for NRA High Power silhouette competition. He was very successful with it. I used to kid him that he reinvented the .30-30. Sadly he passed away several years ago.

w30wcf

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

When I started this thread back there in 2009 I said I would tell my story once a certain number of responses were sent in ~ I forgot. Now I'll say what I do and you may consider.

I have a M70 rebarreled to a heavy 26 inch Douglas premium in 30/06. Currently I use the rifle for long range shooting with 21 grains SR 4759 and a RCBS 30-180-SP.

The load with no filler shoots quite well at short ranges - that is things under 250 yards. After that I found that now and then I'd get high/low fliers. These, I presumed, were due to those shots that didn't exit the rifle at the general average velocity.

I turned to fillers to assure consistent power positioning.

Everyone on the thread made good suggestions and related various experiences and I wound up following my own experience using fillers in straight-cases such as 40/65, 444 and 45/70 .. that is I stuck to T/P.

In the 30/06 I charge the case with 21 grs 4759 and then carefully stuff the airspace with 1/4 sheet of Charmin "Soft" T/P, which fills the space quite uniformly. I always stuff the first portion of T/P all the way down on top of the powder but always leave plenty to fill the remaining case space all the way up to the top of the case - leaving the final compression for the bullet to accomplish during the bullet-seating operation.

On the firing line the T/P is visible as a puff of fine fragments of paper upon firing. At long range ( out to 834 yards ) the load provides excellent consistency ~ never do I see a high/low problem unless the condition itself makes it happen.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Char-Gar]

I use Grex/PSB on a regular basis in the 30-06 round. The powder charge is 50 grains of WC872 which is a very slow ball machine gun powder. This powder needs light compression to get a decent burn. I top off the PSB with enough shotshell buffer to get that compression. Results have been outstanding. Velocity is about 1.9 to 2K fps with load depending on the bullet and individual barrel.

I shoot the same powder charge in the 30/40 and .308 but without the filler as there is no need of it. The powder charge fills the case and give a good compression. Again accuracy is outstanding and velocity is as above with the same qualifiers.

I would not use COW, corn meal, coffee or any other natural filler in a bottle neck case. They have been known to absorb moisture and form a hard plug, which is not a good thing in a bottle neck case.

[1Shirt]

There are a number of folks on castboolits that I truely enjoy reading. Larry Gibson and Beagle kind of top my list, and on this subject I appreciate Larry's advise. Then there are 44Man, Lloyd Smiley, Ben, and a couple of others who are like me I think, long of tooth and gray, or white, or bald that are always worth reading. Sure do miss Junior however. It's a shame that he got driven off.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[1Shirt]

Oops! I forgot to add Buckshot to my favorites. Does a great job on HP molds, and writes well also!
1Shirt!:coffee: