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exile
08-09-2020, 12:14 AM
Are you ready for the Rapture?

Is the concept of the rapture of the church even mentioned in scripture?

As a theological milestone, how can we differentiate the Rapture from the Second Coming?

Is the idea of the rapture a solid theological premise or do only a few Christians believe in it?

Is the rapture a new idea or has it always been a concept present in church history?

Who first came up with the idea of a rapture of the church?

Can we predict when the rapture will take place or will it be a surprise?

Is it possible to be ready for such a cataclysmic event?

What do you think?

exile

GhostHawk
08-09-2020, 09:23 AM
No man knows the hour or the day, not even the Son of God or the Holy Spirit know. This one the Lord God Almighty is holding close to his chest.

Am I ready? Yes.

"As a theological milestone, how can we differentiate the Rapture from the Second Coming?"
Not sure you can or why you'd want to. IMO they are one and the same. He will come again.
" “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 "


"Is the idea of the rapture a solid theological premise or do only a few Christians believe in it?
Is the rapture a new idea or has it always been a concept present in church history?
Who first came up with the idea of a rapture of the church?"

No idea, and to me not really important.

"Can we predict when the rapture will take place or will it be a surprise?"
No we can not predict it, it will come when it comes. Most will not be ready.

"Is it possible to be ready for such a cataclysmic event?"

Of course. All you have to do is accept the lord totally.
Accept that it is HIS will that will be done, not ours.
Maintain a solid steadfast relaitinship with the Lord. Repent of your sins, try not to sin again. Do good works in his name.

The last does not have to be horrible terrible work. Spending an hour with an old friend visiting. Visit those you know who are sick and need of company.
"Mathew 25 :40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

So doing a few good works in his name is not hard. By their fruit you shall know them. Those who bring forth worthless fruit or no fruit shall be cut back and cast into the fire. But those who bring forth good fruit shall be pruned and encouraged.

When the Lord comes again in the air at the last trump he will seperate the sheep from the goats. And the sheep will all be of his flock, lovingly tended.
And the goats shall be cast down.

I am no bible scholar. And yet the Holy Spirit asked me to answer you as best I may.

Most of your questions IMO don't really apply.

Keep your faith polished bright.
Honor the Lord
Surrender to his will
Repent honestly of all your sins. Leave your burdens at his feet.
Go forth and try to spread the good news. Helping and loving others. Forgiving those who cause you pain.
Cleanse your heart of all ill feeling, anger, hate. The Holy Spirit can not stay in a heart cluttered with these.
Once you have a pure heart and a humble attitude pray that the Holy Spirit would visit you, guide you.
Once that happens, peace which surpasseth all understanding, peace like a river descends upon you. And it becomes much easier.

Once you learn to still your mind and listen you can hear him.

At that point the rapture has no fear for you. For you have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

dtknowles
08-09-2020, 11:06 AM
I am ready but I don't believe the rapture will be. It is just a man made end of times story.

One should always be ready, not for our salvation but just because right is right and wrong is wrong and we should always do our best to be right. Sure I guess it is better if people to right because they want salvation. Sure it is better if people do what is right because they fear damnation and the fires of hell. Best is if people do what is right because they believe in doing what is right for its own reasons.

If you believe in God and do good so you will be saved you are committing the sin of selfishness - greed.

Praying for or even just hoping for the Rapture because you believe you are ready for it and want to experience it is selfish - evil.

Wanted to put humanity out of its misery now is like putting a dog down for a lame foot. There is still plenty of good in the world and hope for the future. I might be ready for the Rapture but the Planet is not we are far from the time.

A reminder, right and wrong are not limited to the ten commandments. The ten commandments are just an invitation to follow the letter but not the spirit of the law.

It is much better to demonstrate virtue than it is to work to avoid sin.

The guiding virture is Charity - Charity — Love for one’s neighbor as oneself - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony” (Colossians 3:14, ESV).

Prudence is basically practical common sense. It’s saying or doing the proper thing, at the proper time, and in the appropriate manner. It’s also the ability to know and judge whether to say something or do nothing at all.

Justice is the virtue that seeks to promote fair play. It’s the desire and resolve to give each person his due. It demands that you reward goodness and punish evil. Justice can be one of three different types:

Commutative justice is based on the principle of quid pro quo, which is Latin for this for that. Commutative justice requires, for example, that a customer pay a fair price for worthwhile goods.


Distributive justice involves the relationship between one and many — between an individual and a group — a person and the government, for example.

Social justice concerns the relationships between individuals and groups between one another and everyone. The common good and equal treatment are the cornerstones of social justice.

Temperance is the virtue by which a person uses balance. It’s the good habit that allows a person to relax and have fun without crossing the line and committing sin.

Fortitude is the ability to persevere in times of trial and tribulation — the ability to hang in there when the going gets tough. It’s courage to do the right thing no matter what the cost.

If you feel some moral quandary, check to see what the Charitable thing to do would be. Who benefits and who is hurt. Remember hurt can be subtle or in the future. Does your comfort depend on indebting future generations. Did your stash of ammo come at the expense of others who came to find empty shelves. Did you leave the shelf empty, take the last box or did you leave more than you took.

When you bought your groceries did you give any to the food bank?

Are you doing God's work or just working for yourself.

Worrying about and calling for the Rapture is just working for yourself.

Tim

1hole
08-09-2020, 02:56 PM
Here it is: 1 Thess 4:17 "... we will be caught up.."

Paul wrote that to the church in Thessalonica to a people who feared those who had recently died would miss the coming of the Lord for his people. He wanted to assure them (and, by extension, us) that, dead or alive, no Christian can possibly miss that event. In fact, he stresses that the dead will arise first! Then, we who are alive will also be caught up to join them with the Lord in the air. The physically "caught up" of dead and living believers at that time is the Rapture of the church.

Rapture is simply an untranslated Greek word relating to raptors (meaning birds of prey such as hawks, owls and eagles) swooping down to grasp and carry away the sought objects.

Thus the Rapture of the church (the church is the "body/bride of Christ" and includes all believers) is a totally separate event from the Lord's second coming. The next time is when he will complete his second coming on a white horse, followed by all of us. That second coming is when he'll actually land and establish his one thousand year kingdom on earth.

The millenial (1,000 year) kingdom will end with one last Satanic rebellion.

After the 1K kingdom ends, the Great White Throne will see the resurrection and separation of the few remaining "sheep" of the kingdom age and the vast number of "goats" of all ages. After that there will be a Great White Throne judgement for sentencing the already condemned "goats".

See John 3:16-18 to see who will be rewarded and who will be sentenced. Note there is no reference to a heavenly court to see if anyone has been "good enough" to be saved so fears of not measuring up are misplaced. God measures the heart; get your heart right and everything else will be alright!


Now, this is a very brief overview of my "end times" scenerio; but, is it correct? Well, I think it is but it's not really mine and I sure wouldn't die for it! However, I have studied the questions and many expert's proposed answers for several decades. I don't like loose ends and it's the only view I've yet seen that answers all questions without leaving any loose scriptural strings hanging in unsupported space.

Anyone with web access to Youtube should search for Dr. David Jeremiah's messages on the end times. (And almost anything else! :))

Thundarstick
08-09-2020, 10:13 PM
Are any of these conjectures relevant to how I should live my life? Are answers to these questions going to have an effect on how you live and whom you serve? Personally, I find these wranglings about as useful to MY daily walk with God as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?". The ONLY thing that matters to me is what I do from day to day. In the end (whenever that may be) my relationship with God through Christ is all that matters! If your not ready, get ready!

Thunder Stick
08-10-2020, 08:17 AM
The Parable of the Ten Virgins

“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." - Matthew 25:1-13

Stay woke. Don't be "left behind".

1hole
08-10-2020, 10:42 AM
Are any of these conjectures relevant to how I should live my life? Are answers to these questions going to have an effect on how you live and whom you serve? Personally, I find these wranglings about as useful to MY daily walk with God as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?". The ONLY thing that matters to me is what I do from day to day. In the end (whenever that may be) my relationship with God through Christ is all that matters! If your not ready, get ready!

To YOU, the coming rapture has no great meaning and staying ready is certainly the proper goal for all of us. But eminence of the sudden call for God's people to "come up here" is exciting and the very thought of it has daily meaning to a lot of us. :)

It was Exile's specific "rapture" questions I addressed and none of what I posted is a daydream, every bit of it is written in God's Book.

Thundarstick
08-10-2020, 10:16 PM
To YOU, the coming rapture has no great meaning and staying ready is certainly the proper goal for all of us. But eminence of the sudden call for God's people to "come up here" is exciting and the very thought of it has daily meaning to a lot of us. :)

It was Exile's specific "rapture" questions I addressed and none of what I posted is a daydream, every bit of it is written in God's Book.

Get ready! Be ready! Stay ready! The scriptures where written to bolster the faith of those who become impatient and disillusioned because Jesus isn't come quick enough to please them. Don't become tired of doing good, keep the faith, fight a good fight, and run the race like there will only be one winner! Peace!

1hole
08-11-2020, 07:32 PM
Get ready! Be ready! Stay ready! The scriptures where written to bolster the faith of those who become impatient and disillusioned because Jesus isn't come quick enough to please them. Don't become tired of doing good, keep the faith, fight a good fight, and run the race like there will only be one winner! Peace!

There you go.

I get (I stay!) a bit excited contemplating the coming Rapture, and have for decades because there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled before it comes but, excited or not, your post is the bottom line for us all isn't it?

I do get frustrated with those who think and teach that only those who are prayed up, confessed up, worked up, paid up will get to go up! Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there but believers are accorded Jesus' perfect life record. Therefore no true believer is going to be "left behind" at the Rapture because the Son of God has already paid our sin penalty! Thus, regardless of our errors in minor doctrines, all Christians can live and eventually die (physically) in Jesus' perfect peace! I wish everyone knew that. :) <><

dtknowles
08-11-2020, 10:13 PM
There you go.

I get (I stay!) a bit excited contemplating the coming Rapture, and have for decades because there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled before it comes but, excited or not, your post is the bottom line for us all isn't it?

I do get frustrated with those who think and teach that only those who are prayed up, confessed up, worked up, paid up will get to go up! Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there but believers are accorded Jesus' perfect life record. Therefore no true believer is going to be "left behind" at the Rapture because the Son of God has already paid our sin penalty! Thus, regardless of our errors in minor doctrines, all Christians can live and eventually die (physically) in Jesus' perfect peace! I wish everyone knew that. :) <><

I know you already understand but this is where we differ. "Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there" I disagree, God can tell who of us is worthy, God know our deepest secrets and the depth of our love for our brothers and sisters. On this will we be judged. We can be worthy of heaven but is hard.

On this we will agree, "no true believer is going to be left behind" a true believer will have a deep and abiding love for his sisters and brothers.

Tim

dannyd
08-11-2020, 11:39 PM
Yes, because I may be Raptured tonight. Always be prepared.

1hole
08-12-2020, 10:05 AM
Anyone going to God's perfect heaven has to have a perfect, totally sin free life record but only ONE man has ever accomplished that. Therefore, in order to get to heaven, all imperfect men must be accorded that one man's perfect life record or perish.

Anyone can "believe" what he wishes about earning his own salvation but a "good works" based life, i.e., lived as imperfectly self-righteous as the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day, won't get anyone anywhere with God because all our works are as filthy rags before Him and it's not arguable (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:19-25; 6:23; 10:2-4; Eph 2:8-9) THAT'S exactly why Jesus sacrificed himself in our stead! In doing that, a loving Jesus purchased our salvation and presents it to us as an unearned gift. Therefore, if we are saved at all, we are granted - gifted - a pure salvation based entirely on what HE has done for us. Any good things we may do in life are simply our love gifts back to him and we are NOT "earning" our salvation!

Bottomline, if men could possibly earn salvation there would have been no reason for Jesus to go to the Cross. Anyone saying salvation might be earned by doing good stuff diminishes the cost of Jesus' blood bought gift and demeans his suffering for us. Spiritually, following the path of our own "good works" are ego driven bad news and it leads proud men down the meandering broad road of life into the roaring gates of hell (Mat 7:13-14).

None of that's my idea, it's all clearly written in the Book.

ioon44
08-13-2020, 09:09 AM
Right on, good post it is all about Jesus and what he has done for us that we can not do for our selves'.

"All my hope is based on nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteous."

dtknowles
08-13-2020, 10:25 AM
Right on, good post it is all about Jesus and what he has done for us that we can not do for our selves'.

"All my hope is based on nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteous."

All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

dtknowles
08-13-2020, 10:26 AM
Anyone going to God's perfect heaven has to have a perfect, totally sin free life record but only ONE man has ever accomplished that. Therefore, in order to get to heaven, all imperfect men must be accorded that one man's perfect life record or perish.

Anyone can "believe" what he wishes about earning his own salvation but a "good works" based life, i.e., lived as imperfectly self-righteous as the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day, won't get anyone anywhere with God because all our works are as filthy rags before Him and it's not arguable (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:19-25; 6:23; 10:2-4; Eph 2:8-9) THAT'S exactly why Jesus sacrificed himself in our stead! In doing that, a loving Jesus purchased our salvation and presents it to us as an unearned gift. Therefore, if we are saved at all, we are granted - gifted - a pure salvation based entirely on what HE has done for us. Any good things we may do in life are simply our love gifts back to him and we are NOT "earning" our salvation!

Bottomline, if men could possibly earn salvation there would have been no reason for Jesus to go to the Cross. Anyone saying salvation might be earned by doing good stuff diminishes the cost of Jesus' blood bought gift and demeans his suffering for us. Spiritually, following the path of our own "good works" are ego driven bad news and it leads proud men down the meandering broad road of life into the roaring gates of hell (Mat 7:13-14).

None of that's my idea, it's all clearly written in the Book.

Depending on what is written in the Book, a book, any book is fraught with peril. Depending on God to see you for who you are, if you are good, has no peril.

Tim

ioon44
08-13-2020, 11:46 AM
All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

Absolutely, What do place your hope in?

dannyd
08-13-2020, 12:48 PM
All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

Every word in the KJV is true so I'm good come on Rapture. To quote other individuals.

Not Looking for a hole in the looking for hole in the Air. Not Looking for the Undertaker Looking for the Uptaker. Helps me in to Sleep Good at Night. Just feels good writing it. :)

dtknowles
08-13-2020, 03:53 PM
Absolutely, What do place your hope in?

I place my hope in God.

Tim

ioon44
08-13-2020, 04:03 PM
I place my hope in God.

Tim

Which God?

1hole
08-13-2020, 08:41 PM
I know you already understand but this is where we differ. "Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there" I disagree,...

We disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and I chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.


.... God can tell who of us is worthy.

He sure can! And God has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then I don't know which god you trust! I trust the One who says Jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before Him (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (John 14:6; Act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.


... On this will we be judged. We can be worthy of heaven but is hard.

Wrong. YOU say "we can be worthy of heaven" but God says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and He knows it. So, in his love, God provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the Lord Jesus, as saviour. I do, all Christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect God to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.


On this we will agree, "no true believer is going to be left behind" a true believer will have a deep and abiding love for his sisters and brothers.

You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving God in the Biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not Jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so I'll take your word for how deeply you love others but I know you only have a head knowledge belief in God and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (Mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into Adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own God and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for Adam either.

dannyd
08-13-2020, 09:44 PM
THE SEVEN DISPENSATIONS
1. Man innocent.
2. Man under conscience.
3. Man in authority over the earth.
4. Man under promise.
5. Man under law.
6. Man under grace.
7. Man under the personal reign of Christ.

We are in No 6 Saved by Grace and will be Raptured out before No 7 ether by Death or we will be called by the Trump of God.

The first 5 show the failure of man.

It's great to live in the age of Grace.

Sleep tight it may come tonight.

dtknowles
08-13-2020, 11:46 PM
Which God?

There is but one God. The creator of all that is.

Tim

dtknowles
08-13-2020, 11:52 PM
We disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and I chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.



He sure can! And God has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then I don't know which god you trust! I trust the One who says Jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before Him (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (John 14:6; Act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.



Wrong. YOU say "we can be worthy of heaven" but God says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and He knows it. So, in his love, God provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the Lord Jesus, as saviour. I do, all Christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect God to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.



You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving God in the Biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not Jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so I'll take your word for how deeply you love others but I know you only have a head knowledge belief in God and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (Mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into Adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own God and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for Adam either.

I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim

Thundarstick
08-14-2020, 05:35 AM
I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim
If your not saved, it'll be because you didn't follow God's son and submit to his teachings (just like any of us). That, and being a false teacher. Subverting others away from the path of salvation.
We should ALL be extremely mindful of what we teach, as we WILL be held to account for it!

1hole
08-14-2020, 08:53 AM
I don't expect God to see things my way.... If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Sooo ... you don't expect God to see things your way ... but if He doesn't see things your way then He can kiss off and He will have to live eternally deprived of yourself? We know you believe you're worth being saved as due payment for what you do and have therefore earned your hoped for salvation but you haven't told us WHY you think you are so worthy! ??

Tim, your inflated ego and self importance is driving you to death because I think God can handle your loss but you'll fry apart from Him. You most certainly know heaven or hell is your own eternal choice, not His; so be it (John 3:17/18).

Yeah Tim, I know you don't bother to check the scriptures I often submit but I have to do it because otherwise we'd just be swapping "I believe this but not that" arrogant nonsense.

dtknowles
08-14-2020, 04:13 PM
If your not saved, it'll be because you didn't follow God's son and submit to his teachings (just like any of us). That, and being a false teacher. Subverting others away from the path of salvation.
We should ALL be extremely mindful of what we teach, as we WILL be held to account for it!

Yes, we all should. Be careful what bible you teach or even careful about teaching the bible. It was written by men, if you believe it is the only words of God, you are probably mistaken. If I am not saved it could be for any number of reasons most of which have nothing to do with Jesus.

Tim

dtknowles
08-14-2020, 04:15 PM
Sooo ... you don't expect God to see things your way ... but if He doesn't see things your way then He can kiss off and He will have to live eternally deprived of yourself? We know you believe you're worth being saved as due payment for what you do and have therefore earned your hoped for salvation but you haven't told us WHY you think you are so worthy! ??

Tim, your inflated ego and self importance is driving you to death because I think God can handle your loss but you'll fry apart from Him. You most certainly know heaven or hell is your own eternal choice, not His; so be it (John 3:17/18).

Yeah Tim, I know you don't bother to check the scriptures I often submit but I have to do it because otherwise we'd just be swapping "I believe this but not that" arrogant nonsense.

Preaching to me from the bible only means to me that you believe the bible. Me, not so much, bible verses rarely change my beliefs.

Tim

1hole
08-14-2020, 07:25 PM
Preaching to me from the bible only means to me that you believe the bible. Me, not so much, bible verses rarely change my beliefs.

Yes, we know, nothing shakes your deep spiritual belief in yourself. Good luck.

dannyd
08-14-2020, 10:33 PM
I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim

None of us are worthy of being saved that's why Jesus died on the cross. It's his free gift to us for believing, realizing we are sinner and ask for forgiveness. My opinion, there as been many a man walk from their cell to Angola's (Louisiana State Penitentiary) death house and been saved on the way just like the thief on the cross got to go to Paradise. They were saved because like the thief they had a true repetitive heart.

Dieselhorses
08-15-2020, 02:36 PM
we disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and i chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.



He sure can! And god has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then i don't know which god you trust! I trust the one who says jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (john 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before him (isa 64:6; rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (john 14:6; act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.



Wrong. You say "we can be worthy of heaven" but god says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and he knows it. So, in his love, god provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the lord jesus, as saviour. I do, all christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect god to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.



You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving god in the biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so i'll take your word for how deeply you love others but i know you only have a head knowledge belief in god and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own god and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for adam either.

amen!

frkelly74
08-15-2020, 02:47 PM
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth just as in Heaven.

dtknowles
08-15-2020, 05:59 PM
None of us are worthy of being saved that's why Jesus died on the cross. It's his free gift to us for believing, realizing we are sinner and ask for forgiveness. My opinion, there as been many a man walk from their cell to Angola's (Louisiana State Penitentiary) death house and been saved on the way just like the thief on the cross got to go to Paradise. They were saved because like the thief they had a true repetitive heart.

Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim

dtknowles
08-15-2020, 06:12 PM
Yes, we know, nothing shakes your deep spiritual belief in yourself. Good luck.

This is not about me. This is about saving those that need to repent their evil, hateful, unloving ways. I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. Those that do not take it to heart will not be saved.

When Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I believe he means that you must act toward your fellow humans as he has shown, believing Jesus is God is not what saves you, heeding his message is what saves you. it is not about the man it is about the message. The message is right even if Jesus was never born. The Bibles could be total fiction but the message would still be valid. Weigh you conscience against what Jesus would do, if you do not regret every time you did not do as Jesus would have done even if it meant your death then you might not be saved. If you would not die so that others would be saved, how could you be saved.

Tim

dannyd
08-15-2020, 06:12 PM
Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim


That's your opinion and that's fine before long we will both know the answer.

dtknowles
08-15-2020, 07:39 PM
That's your opinion and that's fine before long we will both know the answer.

I am not sure we will know the answer but before long it will no longer matter. If we are wrong, I doubt God is going to explain and if we are wrong I don't think there will be anything to explain it too.

Tim

dannyd
08-15-2020, 07:58 PM
I am not sure we will know the answer but before long it will no longer matter. If we are wrong, I doubt God is going to explain and if we are wrong I don't think there will be anything to explain it too.

Tim


Time will tell.

Dieselhorses
08-16-2020, 01:36 PM
This is not about me. This is about saving those that need to repent their evil, hateful, unloving ways. I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. Those that do not take it to heart will not be saved.

When Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I believe he means that you must act toward your fellow humans as he has shown, believing Jesus is God is not what saves you, heeding his message is what saves you. it is not about the man it is about the message. The message is right even if Jesus was never born. The Bibles could be total fiction but the message would still be valid. Weigh you conscience against what Jesus would do, if you do not regret every time you did not do as Jesus would have done even if it meant your death then you might not be saved. If you would not die so that others would be saved, how could you be saved.

Tim

Why you say...
I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved.? When you believe that Jesus was a fictitious character?

dtknowles
08-16-2020, 03:06 PM
Why you say...? When you believe that Jesus was a fictitious character?

I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. First because I think it is right. I also think if you act in concert with Jesus' teachings even if you never heard of Jesus or even if you don't believe in Jesus, you will be saved.

I never said I was sure Jesus is a fictitious character I have said I think it is likely the Jesus portrayed in the new testament is a tall tale, exaggerated and it could be Jesus was never born.

What Jesus taught, to love one another, is not a message unique to Jesus. It is a self-evident truth. To not love all of God's creations is to be evil.

Good Christians will be saved, bad Christians will not be saved.

Tim

dtknowles
08-16-2020, 04:09 PM
So if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, how can you be a Christian at all, more less a good one

I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not.

Tim

1hole
08-16-2020, 04:20 PM
I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not.

If you don't believe men must be Christians (meaning followers of the Lord Christ Jesus) to be saved then what do you think men need to be saved from ... and too? And on who, or on what, do you base YOUR beliefs and suggest others follow?

dtknowles
08-16-2020, 05:10 PM
If you don't believe men must be Christians (meaning followers of the Lord Christ Jesus) to be saved then what do you think men need to be saved from ... and too? And on who, or on what, do you base YOUR beliefs and suggest others follow?

It was right there in the post before yours. "I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not."

It is not just men who are saved it is women too. Saved is what God does when good people die. I don't know what that is but I am certain it is better than not being saved. My beliefs are based on my experience, conscience and education. I have lived, read, and learned a lot. Somethings are obvious when you take a broader view of the universe.

I suggest everyone do the right thing, be good don't be evil. Follow the 7 Cardinal Virtues and avoid the 7 Deadly Sins. Follow the Golden Rule. Obey the 5th thru the 10th biblical commandments. Make the world a better place while you are here. If you do something wrong, make it right. Be a good Samaritan. Help the poor and disadvantaged. Try to help other people smile. Give comfort to those who are hurting.

Don't be a jerk.

Tim

Dieselhorses
08-16-2020, 06:44 PM
I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. First because I think it is right. I also think if you act in concert with Jesus' teachings even if you never heard of Jesus or even if you don't believe in Jesus, you will be saved.

I never said I was sure Jesus is a fictitious character I have said I think it is likely the Jesus portrayed in the new testament is a tall tale, exaggerated and it could be Jesus was never born.

What Jesus taught, to love one another, is not a message unique to Jesus. It is a self-evident truth. To not love all of God's creations is to be evil.

Good Christians will be saved, bad Christians will not be saved.

Tim



Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim

Yes, we are supposed to love our fellow man and do unto them as we would have done unto us, but that isn't what saves us. Yes, the Bible says "we will be judged according to our works" but that is referring to the rewards we will receive in Heaven. Not arguing the "Spirits", just saying what I learned since I was young. There was a time when thought exactly as you believe now. Then God made himself "real" in my life, touched my heart and I felt His love, mercy, grace and forgiveness all at one time. It was pretty overwhelming (in a good way!) But it was done HIS way, not the way anybody around depicted Him and in His time. And Jesus's death did matter. If it didn't then there would be NO Salvation. He was the ultimate sacrifice and this was the only way to cover the sins of all mankind-both then, now and forever. The resurrection of Jesus was necessary to fulfill God's promise.

1hole
08-16-2020, 07:46 PM
It was right there in the post before yours. "I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not."

But my question was, and remains, to what and from what do you think people will be saved? And what evidence do you base your nebulous beliefs on?

dtknowles
08-16-2020, 11:08 PM
But my question was, and remains, to what and from what do you think people will be saved? And what evidence do you base your nebulous beliefs on?

I don't know to what or from what people will be saved. Saved is just the expression some people, mainly Christians use. I believe that when our mortal bodies perish, God will have a plan, a use maybe for some of us. I believe God will have a use for those of us who are good. If you are not good maybe your soul dies with your body or maybe you are reincarnated. Even the Bible is not clear on what comes after the death of our bodies.

Tim

dtknowles
08-16-2020, 11:24 PM
Yes, we are supposed to love our fellow man and do unto them as we would have done unto us, but that isn't what saves us. Yes, the Bible says "we will be judged according to our works" but that is referring to the rewards we will receive in Heaven. Not arguing the "Spirits", just saying what I learned since I was young. There was a time when thought exactly as you believe now. Then God made himself "real" in my life, touched my heart and I felt His love, mercy, grace and forgiveness all at one time. It was pretty overwhelming (in a good way!) But it was done HIS way, not the way anybody around depicted Him and in His time. And Jesus's death did matter. If it didn't then there would be NO Salvation. He was the ultimate sacrifice and this was the only way to cover the sins of all mankind-both then, now and forever. The resurrection of Jesus was necessary to fulfill God's promise.

I am glad you found your way. It might not be the same for others. There might not be just one way.

Tim

Thundarstick
08-17-2020, 08:24 AM
There might not be just one way.

Tim It's just as likely there might be just one way.

1hole
08-17-2020, 08:42 AM
It's just as likely there might be just one way.

Well noted. In this "what if ... ", stuff it seems some never admit their stance just may be a double edge sword. Oh well, determined self righteousness has no limits does it? Okay, yes, it does have one eternal limit and it's not a challenge or fun.

Thunder Stick
08-17-2020, 09:42 AM
I don't know to what or from what people will be saved. Saved is just the expression some people, mainly Christians use. I believe that when our mortal bodies perish, God will have a plan, a use maybe for some of us. I believe God will have a use for those of us who are good. If you are not good maybe your soul dies with your body or maybe you are reincarnated. Even the Bible is not clear on what comes after the death of our bodies.

Tim

Hi Tim!

My words mean nothing. But the Bible tells us that being good is no help. For there is no one who is good...

Romans 3:12


All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

Then what hope is there for us? We are justified freely by the grace* of Jesus Christ.


Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

*Grace - God's Riches At Christ's Expense

Salvation is a free gift from God. It is not earned and there is no sliding scale of one person was more or less good than another. That would be a salvation by works. You see, Christianity is unique among all faiths. In every human religion, one must "do" something in order to obtain a reward. It is works based salvation. In Christianity it is "done" for you by Christ because He is the only one who was good among all mankind. But being our kinsman, fully human and fully God, he is our kinsman redeemer. He paid the price for our sins. We are reconciled to God through Christ alone. It is the free gift of a loving God. Gifts are not earned.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

1hole
08-17-2020, 12:21 PM
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

And that IS the gospel, i.e., the Good News of salvation is from God, not from self righteousness, lest any man should boast (Titus 3:5-7).

Virtually ALL of the (many) self righteous people I've ever met expect to "earn" their free gift and usually like to tell everyone about how many good things they do! When their error is shown they often say something like, "Well, I'm doing the best I can and if God isn't satisfied with that, so be it." They just don't get the wonderful point of the gospel so they can never know the peace of God; that's truly sad.

dannyd
08-17-2020, 01:10 PM
That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

Thunder Stick
08-17-2020, 01:44 PM
That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

LOL! :lol:

Dieselhorses
08-18-2020, 12:24 PM
That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

^^^That's classic!^^^

Dieselhorses
08-18-2020, 12:47 PM
266387

dtknowles
08-18-2020, 09:27 PM
It's just as likely there might be just one way.

If there were just one way then only one person would be saved.

There are certainly many ways but there could be a common trait, like love of Jesus and acceptance of him as your savior. I don't believe that is the case but others do. To each his own. I respect most people's beliefs. I think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindi, etc. are saved as well as Christians.

Tim

ioon44
08-19-2020, 08:32 AM
John ch 14 v 6.

1hole
08-19-2020, 08:50 AM
To each his own.

Sounds nice. But .... when the hazards are real, the failure to warn isn't nice, it's deadly neglect.


I respect most people's beliefs. I think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindi, etc. are saved as well as Christians.

You "respect" deadly error? That's sweet but it's hardly as wonderful as you seem to "think". God's heaven and hell are real, not day dreams. I respect everyone so much that I'm not indifferent to their spiritual mistakes and cry out to them in warning!

As a "highly eddicated liberal" locked in an empty spiritual world it seems you still can't grasp that Christians can - and do - respect other people without also believing we can "think" them into God's own salvation.

Christians speak for God's truth but, unlike you, we don't try to think for God.

It should be obvious even to you that God doesn't care what you think about who He is or what his salvation is. And he sure ain't Allah, et al.

exile
08-25-2021, 03:01 PM
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (E.S.V.)

exile

Bloodman14
08-25-2021, 03:37 PM
I wanted to let all of you know that I have been paying rapt attention to this and a few other threads. I have not been in church for YEARS but have had a minor(?) relationship with God for all my life (at least since the age of accountability). Recent world events have re-awakened my interest in the end times, concerning timelines and such. Several of my questions have been answered, and the explanations have given me some comfort. I thank all of you for your comments and input.
God Bless.

dannyd
08-25-2021, 04:38 PM
It’s great to be Rapture Ready :)

Looking for the Uptaker not the Undertaker.

Spell checker: uptaker is not one word but undertaker is; guess we know how the World sees it.

Combatmedic63
01-05-2022, 05:45 PM
Maranatha Believer here! I'm definitely ready for the rapture and to leave this terrible world.

exile
01-13-2022, 05:33 PM
"Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him."

Genesis 5:24 (E.S.V.)

exile

Good Cheer
01-22-2022, 06:07 AM
Anyone familiar with Dave MacPherson's works concerning the origins of the pre-tribulation rapture theory?

augercreek
01-22-2022, 07:37 AM
Check out Johnathan Cahns' you tube videos. I believe his teachings will clarify some issues here.

Good Cheer
01-23-2022, 01:04 PM
2Thessalonians
Does it matter who's right about the theory as long as you were chosen from the beginning?
As long as you aren't deluded and believe the lie?

Good Cheer
01-24-2022, 07:58 AM
Anyone familiar with Dave MacPherson's works concerning the origins of the pre-tribulation rapture theory?

The ones I've kept are The Incredible Cover-Up and The Rapture Plot.

1hole
01-24-2022, 09:28 PM
The ones I've kept are The Incredible Cover-Up and The Rapture Plot.

Anyone wanting to get a glimpse of the when/where/why the pretrib rapture "plot" got started needs to read and understand 1 Thess 4.

Good Cheer
01-25-2022, 10:11 AM
Yeah, that's about it. Those who have already died rise first.
Then after that is when those few of us who are still in these meat suits are changed.
When that resurrection of the dead happens is really cut and dried but the many people twisting scripture to make it fit their needs are not going to put down their torque wrenches. With that in mind it would seem the best thing to do is to set the argument aside and pray they don't worship the first christ that shows up.

Fact of the matter is it's a lot more fun to discuss the birthing of the beast system any how. The system comes first and that rascal is getting ready to burst forth from Kane's chest before we know it.

1hole
01-25-2022, 12:04 PM
My "cut and paste" is broken so I'll use exile's Thess. post to give a brief pretribulation defense:


"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul had told the church at Thessalonica about the coming Rapture. They accepted the Rapture teaching but members of their group were dying and the living began to fear the already dead were going to miss out. Paul heard about their fear and wrote this second letter to them partly to correct that mistake in their expectations; i.e., Paul told them the dead in Christ will rise first and that information was comforting!


For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

This is the Rapture, meaning it's an event to snatch up believers and it seems to occur pre-tribulation - it's a "SURPRISE!" event. Note that there is NOT a word about Christ coming all the way down here to set up his 1,000 year Kingdom on earth at the time, itonly says that believers - the Church - will be called UP into the heavens to be with Him.

The common idea that the Rapture and so called "End of Time as we Know It" is the same event is CLEARLY NOT TRUE!

Time wise, the broad historical sequence the Bible gives us is: Rapture; 7 Years of Tribulation/Great Tribulation; Return of the Lord; 1,000 Kingdom; release of Satan and his final war; seperation of sheep and goats and the Great White Throne Judgements; eternity! Thus, there will be not less than 1,007 years between the Rapture and the final - second death - judgements.

Finally, it's not knowing too much about end times that causes confusion. Confusion is caused by ignorance of the truth and ignorance is caused by too little personal study; seems people who actually know something about Bible prophecy are much less likely to swallow a load of religious B.S. from some half-baked end-times goofus.

Johnny Diamond
01-25-2022, 12:52 PM
1hole, I concur wholeheartedly, and see NO need to add or take away!
Johnny.

FINEM RESPICE ~ MEMENTO MORI

Good Cheer
01-26-2022, 11:41 AM
Anyone wanting to get a glimpse of the when/where/why the pretrib rapture "plot" got started needs to read and understand 1 Thess 4.

After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way and that the toes on my meat suit will likely curl up first.

1hole
01-26-2022, 12:59 PM
After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, ....

You're right that the doctrines of eschatology are not neatly gathered in one small place to simplify it for casual examination by casual people and without study. In fact, that's what Biblical "study" is about as Paul put it to Timothy (2 Tim 5:15) and, by extension, to the rest of us. If all understanding was childishly easy it wouldn't require much "study" at all ... but we are grown ups and study is exactly what we are told to do!

Division comes when one child disagrees with another without a firm foundation. Forcefully proclaiming, "I believe thus and so..." without accurate Biblical support is childish.


... that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way ...

Doctrinal positions often get established by denominational traditions and/or some established firmly "prophet", often totally devoid of any significant Bible support. Left unchallenged a traditional theory becomes "truth" to its unquestioning followers. THAT is why the religious Jews of Jesus' day rejected their Messiah and THAT was, and still is about a lot of other details, a meaningful mistake!

Thing is, a lot of ideas can be formed on isolated bits of scripture but wrong ideas always leave stray bits that just don't fit the theory. WHEN WE FINALLY GET IT RIGHT ALL OF THE BIBLICAL DATA MUST FIT WITHOUT FORCE! It's taken me decades of study to get my beliefs loose strings to fit together properly.

Good Cheer
01-26-2022, 03:07 PM
1hole,
As you are aware I'm not a devotee of pretrib rapture theory. You are and I don't have a problem with that.

1hole
01-26-2022, 07:56 PM
1hole,
As you are aware I'm not a devotee of pretrib rapture theory.

I gave a short but focused response to the rapture issue as Paul discussed it in 2 Thess. Now you tell me you're not a devotee of pretrib rapture but you don't say a thing about WHY you're not a pretriib "devotee", OR anything at all about what you do think about the rapture. So, okay, you disagree with me but we already knew that. But, knowing no more about your rapture belief than you disagree with me really doesn't advance your no doubt sincerely held point of view an inch does it?


You are and I don't have a problem with that.

Do we have "a problem"? Heavens no!

Cheer, I believe you're a blood bought brother in Christ. So, even with your obvious theological imperfections (;)), I would be delighted to share a lengthy huntin', fishin' or Christian mission trip with you.

I fully agree that nothing about theological disagreements with anyone here should or ever would be personally offensive to me.

If respectful and friendly doctrinal disagreements, even while strongly searching for answers, were impossible very few of us would have many church friends. (I have a lot of church friends and I suspect you do too!) Now I ask:

1) What do you believe is the biggest error to a pretrib rapture?
2) What scripture(s) do you base your belief on?

Good Cheer
01-27-2022, 06:08 AM
I'm not playing with your wrench.
We need to be ready for when we meet Him.

Lloyd Smale
01-27-2022, 06:19 AM
when one trys to tell me how God thinks and has to use big words and fancy talk. I tend to avoid it. God is much more simple then that. I always got a kick out of bible experts preaching on a gun forum. In my opinion it should even be allowed. If you want to argue scripture go to a bible fourm or your preacher. Problem with that is most that post on gun fourm would get burried by someone that really knows. Thats why there here.

Good Cheer
01-27-2022, 07:50 AM
I like it because I'm a happy clinger.:guntootsmiley:

1hole
01-27-2022, 09:20 PM
... I always got a kick out of bible experts preaching on a gun forum. In my opinion it should even be allowed. If you want to argue scripture go to a bible fourm or your preacher.

Lloyd, if I can follow all that correctly, and IF the "Deep Theology" label on this forum is correct, and if the label with "The Rapture" on this thread tells you anything at all it seems you should know we have done exactly what you have taken the time to suggest.

What puzzles me is why you seem to feel compelled to read and make negative comments on forums, threads, people and topics you profess to object to. It's really easy for people like you to avoid people like us.

You don't even need an "Ignore" feature to prevent yourself from reading anything we post and we won't be offended if you don't. In due respect for your deeply held religious sensitivities, why don't you try that? :)

Kosh75287
01-27-2022, 09:39 PM
Are you SERIOUS?!? I'M not even ready for the rush-hour TRAFFIC that I must face in the morning!
RAPTURE?!?! You want me to ponder the deeper metaphysical and theological implications of the world suddenly ending, while I'M still trying to figure out what makes TEFLON stick to FRYING PANS!?! No more, I BEG YOU!

1hole
01-27-2022, 10:38 PM
But Kosh, the Rapture of believers is easy. And heaven will be much better for blood bought Christians than most people understand; that's why I LOVE to talk about it!

The next prophetic event in the Bible is the "Surprise guys, here I am!" rapture. Right then, both "dead" and living Christians get remade and we'll finally be really alive, then, in the twinkling of an eye, we'll all be "caught up" (raptured) and leave to be with Jesus in heaven for at least seven years. During that time nothing that happens back on Earth will have any impact on us.

(After the seven years of Tribulation will be the second coming of the Lord, him along with us, all wearing white choir robes and riding on white horses, to set up His 1,000 year kingdom on earth!)

That's it buddy, that's the sum total of the Rapture to the end in a nutshell. And I do look forward to it!. :)

.429&H110
01-28-2022, 12:00 AM
Don't miss the Boat:
You might sit on the dock waiting for the Boat, and argue with the crowd on the dock about what the Boat will look like or who can get on it. You could sit on the dock and read the Book about the Boat. For me, I want to go find those who might miss the Boat, time is short to reach people who don't know about Jesus, so they can choose or be chosen. I believe the Lord's arrival will settle all doubts and fears. Forever. Soon.

Even so, Lord Jesus come quickly. Amen.

Rfeustel
01-28-2022, 12:16 AM
After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way and that the toes on my meat suit will likely curl up first.

GC: I kind of got to the same place. I find it fascinating how our adversary can create division over topics of debate within the Church (ala Screwtape Letters kind of stuff). Pre, Mid, Post has split churches.

Lloyd Smale
01-28-2022, 06:34 AM
Lloyd, if I can follow all that correctly, and IF the "Deep Theology" label on this forum is correct, and if the label with "The Rapture" on this thread tells you anything at all it seems you should know we have done exactly what you have taken the time to suggest.

What puzzles me is why you seem to feel compelled to read and make negative comments on forums, threads, people and topics you profess to object to. It's really easy for people like you to avoid people like us.

You don't even need an "Ignore" feature to prevent yourself from reading anything we post and we won't be offended if you don't. In due respect for your deeply held religious sensitivities, why don't you try that? :)

because as long as i stick by the rules i can post my opinion. EVEN if it contridicts yours. there are moderators here that determine if my posts break rules. Not self appointed forum police. Want my real opinion. Ive been on this site since its inception. For at least half of that time NOBODY talked religion or even politics. It was about casting bullets. Boggles my mind that someone would even come to a cast bullet forum and want to talk religion. Theres hundreds of religion sites you can post on and argue your belief that your right and someone else is wrong. What ive found is on about any gun site that allows religion to be talked about is it doesnt nothing but cause bad feelings. Most of the time posts are from people who come here because theyd get ate for lunch on a forum where people actually knew and studied the bible. So dont judge me unless you want to be judged. But i believe the bible says theres only ONE judge. But if i broke a rule feel free to contact a moderator. Maybe im wrong and have broke some rule (forum rule not your rule) i have done it in the past. But until i do break a rule please dont tell me what i can read and what i can reply to,

Good Cheer
01-28-2022, 06:46 AM
GC: I kind of got to the same place. I find it fascinating how our adversary can create division over topics of debate within the Church (ala Screwtape Letters kind of stuff). Pre, Mid, Post has split churches.

Uh oh. Went to my semi-annual check up yesterday.
Blood pressure is great, cholesterol is great...
Might live longer than I thought.

You know Rfeustel, there are so many wonderfully amazing aspects and happenings in this reality that others call a religion, so much we can discuss and enjoy without butting heads over where in the chain of events we'll see Jesus face to face. Yeah, we shouldn't concentrate on something that's so custom made to order for driving a wedge. But, that's my opinion and that said, I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

1hole
01-28-2022, 11:52 AM
because as long as i stick by the rules i can post my opinion.

Lloyd, I don't know what you're objecting to. Note that I didn't even hint you not post anything you wish, I only suggested you not read posts you object to if they bring you pain. Rules or no rules, your strongly worded objections to posts on this site's clearly labeled religious forum seems to be a bit overbearing. :)


Ive been on this site since its inception.

Ah. Perhaps we've gotten to the real basis of your presumptions!

Actually, I've been here quite awhile myself but I've never presumed my date of enlistment grants me any automatic stature over newer guys.


For at least half of that time NOBODY talked religion or even politics. It was about casting bullets.

Okay. Do you feel the site managers have allowed topics that are too far outside your comfort range? If so, the genie is really out of the bottle now so what do you think they should do?


Boggles my mind that someone would even come to a cast bullet forum and want to talk religion. Theres hundreds of religion sites you can post on...

Some minds are more easily boggled than others but the clear path to you not seeing religion threads at all is still before us.


But until i do break a rule please dont tell me what i can read and what i can reply to,

Fully agree. And, ditto to you. :2_high5:

Hoping you have a very nice day.....

1hole
01-28-2022, 02:36 PM
Don't miss the Boat: You might sit on the dock waiting for the Boat, and argue with the crowd on the dock about what the Boat will look like or who can get on it. You could sit on the dock and read the Book about the Boat.

I may be wrong but I believe everyone seriously interested in the Boat is already in it.


For me, I want to go find those who might miss the Boat, time is short to reach people who don't know about Jesus, so they can choose or be chosen.

Time is indeed short and your's is a common hope but it has to ignore that each day far more people die going to hell than to heaven. Therefore, I hope the Lord comes for his church soon but I also hope he won't be asking me if his timing is right!


I believe the Lord's arrival will settle all doubts and fears. Forever. Soon.

Right on!

Lloyd Smale
01-28-2022, 03:29 PM
Lloyd, I don't know what you're objecting to. Note that I didn't even hint you not post anything you wish, I only suggested you not read posts you object to if they bring you pain. Rules or no rules, your strongly worded objections to posts on this site's clearly labeled religious forum seems to be a bit overbearing. :)



Ah. Perhaps we've gotten to the real basis of your presumptions!

Actually, I've been here quite awhile myself but I've never presumed my date of enlistment grants me any automatic stature over newer guys.



Okay. Do you feel the site managers have allowed topics that are too far outside your comfort range? If so, the genie is really out of the bottle now so what do you think they should do?



Some minds are more easily boggled than others but the clear path to you not seeing religion threads at all is still before us.



Fully agree. And, ditto to you. :2_high5:

Hoping you have a very nice day.....

takes more then that kind of crap to pull my chain. God bless you!!!

1hole
01-28-2022, 04:10 PM
I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

Cheer, IF you're right about the O.P.'s point of view, so what, change our minds! We have no fixed borders surrounding our discussions, this is an open forum and everyone is free to speak.

You said you don't believe in a "pre-trib" rapture. However, the only reason you've given so far is simply that you don't "believe" in a pre-tribulation rapture. Okay, so you don't believe in it but this being the "Deep Theology" forum invites discussions based on more than "I believe this but I don't believe that." Just posting "I do/don't believe" anything is hardly a convincing position.

By definition, "Deep Theology" means a serious study of scripture. But, a deep - or even shallow - theological "study" without scriptural backing really isn't theology at all, it's just human religious opinion and there are some dangerously stormy waters there!

So, again I'll ask you to cross the invisible topic lines and tell us What you DO believe according to your own pre/mid/post trib Rapture "theory" and what scripture(s) do you base your beliefs on?

Who knows, you may prove yourself to be right .... but it'll probably take more than just saying "I believe this and that and you should too!"

exile
11-19-2023, 08:51 PM
"And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'"

Acts 1:9-11 (E.S.V.)

exile

Bloodman14
11-21-2023, 04:50 PM
320207

Recent events have prompted me to do something I haven't done in 30 years; open my Bible. I've been questioning my own salvation in regards to the rapture, and along the way, I found this. Very helpful to me. I am going to make an appointment to speak with the pastor at one of the facilities (nursing home) that I service to speak further.

Alabama358
11-21-2023, 07:03 PM
320207

Recent events have prompted me to do something I haven't done in 30 years; open my Bible. I've been questioning my own salvation in regards to the rapture, and along the way, I found this. Very helpful to me. I am going to make an appointment to speak with the pastor at one of the facilities (nursing home) that I service to speak further.

Bravo Brother!!
The best course of action a person can take when they have doubts is to open the bible with a glad heart and get in to the Word of GOD.

Some folks can really get on Tilt when they start to have doubts... but consider this, John the Baptist doubted Christ himself and Jesus said that there was never a better man born to a woman. that's a pretty awesome reference considering the competition with the likes of Moses, Elijah, Joshua, David and all the other greats.

Matthew 11:3-4
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Matthew11:11
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


The Chart is a good one... I only see a few discrepancies. Thanks for posting it

Bloodman14
11-22-2023, 06:03 PM
Alabama, what discrepancies do you note? I read the appropriate verses and it seems to be right in line with scripture.

Alabama358
11-22-2023, 11:13 PM
Alabama, what discrepancies do you note? I read the appropriate verses and it seems to be right in line with scripture.

The biggest discrepancy is that whomever built that chart (and it is a nice one) assumed that 1 Thessalonians 16-17 happens before even the first Seal is opened but with a little study and comparing Scripture to Scripture it is easy to see it just isnt so... For example

The First letter Paul wrote to the Christian church members of Thessalonica

1 Thessalonians 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Second letter Paul regarding the same subject to the same church members to relieve some doubt that they had missed the day of the Lord

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

As one can easily see, Paul's second letter tells the church not to let anyone deceive them that the day of the LORD has already happened, and it will not happen until there is a great falling away (apostasy, many folks turning their back on Christ teachings) and the man of sin, the son of perdition revealed and the abomination of desolation has taken place.
Pretty much everyone agrees that the abomination of desolation happens at the midpoint of the 7 years.

Matthew 24:1-51 (Christ disciples came to him and ask for the details of his return, and he lays it out plain and simple)
Mark 13:1-37
Luke 21 1-38
Revelation 6: 1-17

All of the above are great books, chapter and verses with regards to end times rapture study... they all show Christ return at the midpoint of the 7 years after the abomination of desolation and also after the Sun & Moon are darkened

So the red arrow that shows the rapture happening before even the first seal is opened is just not Biblical, I would move that to just after the 6th seal (that is how Christ describes it in Matthew 24 to the earliest Church members and I think he knows)
If anyone starts trying to feed you the "it has to be a total surprise" or "7 year marriage" and church members are secretly disappeared before even the wars and rumors of wars (1st seal) Ask them for chapter and verse to back it up...
My guess is that they will not provide any actual scripture but will give you a bunch of platitudes and cute sayings and finally will tell you that you just need to be able to rightfully divide the word to understand.

If a person reads and studies the above listed chapters with an open mind for understanding they will probably get it

I have them all (book chapter and verse) laid out in a spreadsheet so that you can look at them side by side... but I cant figure out how to insert it into the thread... if anyone can tell me how to do it I would be happy to share it.

Bloodman14
11-23-2023, 10:18 AM
Alabama, if you could do that, I will print it off and show it to my pastor, just to see what he says.

Thundarstick
11-23-2023, 01:44 PM
https://youtu.be/Oaogr-DtKjI?si=MTa0ebHSgD-lYmpM

The latest in Dr. Tabor's review of end time prophecies.

ioon44
11-24-2023, 09:40 AM
https://youtu.be/Oaogr-DtKjI?si=MTa0ebHSgD-lYmpM

The latest in Dr. Tabor's review of end time prophecies.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=Dr.+Tabor&mid=9A462E4397D3442DB5279A462E4397D3442DB527&FORM=VIRE

Thundarstick
11-25-2023, 07:29 AM
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=Dr.+Tabor&mid=9A462E4397D3442DB5279A462E4397D3442DB527&FORM=VIRE

What's this video have to do with rapture theology, or prophecies?