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Red River Rick
12-02-2008, 01:35 PM
This post is a continuation from here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=37607&highlight=sabots

I finally had the opportunity to try out some of the new BPI BLS-12 Sabot. The end result looks very promising, but as usual, there is always room for improvement.

I loaded and fired over 50 rounds, with varying charges using Blue Dot for a propellant. I started off using 30 grains and worked my way up 40 grains. All loads used the BLS-12 sabot and a 460 grain, 0.510 diameter, HP bullet cast from WW (mould available from KAL Tool & Die). Loads were all roll crimped.

All shots were fired at 60 yards from a makeshift bench, nothing fancy, using a Remington 870 Express Magnum with a 23” fully rifled barrel. I mounted a cheap Bushnell Banner 2.5x scope on it since the barrel comes with a cantilever mount (not much better than sights).

Hull: Remington Express (unibody construction)
Primer: Winchester 209
Powder: Blue Dot (30 – 40 grains)
Gas Seal: Winchester White Wad / Petals and cushion removed
Sabot: BPI BLS-12
Bullet: 460 gr. HP, 0.510” diameter cast from WW
Crimp: Roll


Here are a few scanned images of the targets.

Group measures 2.375” center to center, 34 grains Blue Dot
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/slug1.jpg

Group measures 1.800” center to center, 33 grains Blue Dot
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/slug2.jpg

Group measures 2.125” center to center, 31 grains Blue Dot. Second group measures 3.600” center to center, 35 grains Blue Dot
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/slug3.jpg


I did manage to recover some of the sabots for visual inspection and found none had blown holes thru the base. Closer inspection did reveal that the sabots are actually being compressed up and around the bullet, causing slight deformation on the bullet’s base (recovered slugs). I’m thinking that the material used for making the sabots is not strong enough. The base of the sabot should also be thicker and the cushioning could be eliminated as well. There’s no need for the cushioning, were not shooting a shot charge here, so pellet deformation is not a problem.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/Slug006.jpg

I did load a few rounds with 40.0 grs of Blue Dot to see what the results would be. These rounds are the only one’s that had holes blown in the base of the sabots. Seems to me that these sabots cannot handle the high pressures generated with the hotter loads and are more suited to light to medium loads.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/Slug008.jpg

I’m going to remove the cushion from some of the sabots and use hard card wads to fill the void. As mentioned by one of our members previously, the hard card wads will definitely offer better support and perhaps help reduce or eliminate the blown bases.


My opinion would be that these new sabots from BPI have a lot of potential. With the right combination, groups less than 3” at 100 yards could easily be obtained.

RRR

BABore
12-02-2008, 04:38 PM
I've had similar results. I'm using an X12X gas seal and nitro card wads below the sabot. I'm also tumbling the sabot in motor mica. Seems to improve the release and make it more consistent. Also increases velocity some. Note the sabot imprint on the base of your boolits. More cushion, hard cards, required. I also shot a few groups with the sabot's cushion base removed. Promising. Looks like a good, firm wad column, without all the springy plastic cushion stuff, is the way forward. If you look at the Barnes sabot, and all the commercially loaded stuff, the sabot is nothing but a slit plastic cup. Some have tits like the BPI, others don't. Even found some that had a steel washer under the boolit. Omly the BPI has a cushion base to it.

Red River Rick
12-02-2008, 06:10 PM
BABore:

As you mention, the support under the bullet is important. I'll load a few more rounds up, bringing the powder charge up slightly and hard card wads for support and see what the difference is.

Another thought was using the Ranger Steel wads from BPI. I'd have to make a mould that casts a 0.650 diameter slug, but that wouldn't be a problem. Rather than roll crimp, I would just fold them with a 6 point crimp.

Here's a pic of the 0.510", 460 gr HP mould I made for the BPI sabots.

RRR




http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/SlugMould002.jpg

Blammer
12-02-2008, 10:18 PM
Nice mould!

Blammer
12-02-2008, 10:19 PM
I'm lookin forward to seeing a 20ga sabot for slugs. :)

Red River Rick
12-02-2008, 10:27 PM
Thanks Blammer. But the design is based on the dimensions posted in the earlier thread by Dixie Slugs, I just added the HP.

A 20 gauge sabot would be great. Hopefully BPI will make some changes to the BLS-12 before taking on the 20 gauge. Some changes are needed which would greatly enhance the product.

RRR

turbo1889
12-03-2008, 02:01 AM
. . . . All loads used the BLS-12 sabot and a 460 grain, 0.510 diameter, HP bullet cast from WW (mould available from KAL Tool & Die). . . .

Okay, I jumped when I saw that posting of another company out there that will cut custom molds -- especially if that includes hollow point and hollow base molds. Ran a google search and came up with this as the main result:

http://www.kal-mfg.com/

Is this the place we are talking about -- what do their prices run and what kinds of cuts are thy capable of ??? I order custom cut molds way too often and pay way too much for them at present. Any potential alternatives for quicker, cheaper, or better service are definently worth a look.

Red River Rick
12-03-2008, 02:34 AM
turbo1889:

Wrong website. I'm the one who cut the mould shown above. Click on the link at the bottom of this post. Or, send me a PM, perhaps I may be able to help.

RRR

Dixie Slugs
12-03-2008, 09:34 AM
Excellent indeed! The basic Dixie design has now been worked with by a number of fine fellows....and seems to be a good design indeed. The real problem comes from blown sabots and is due to the cushion base on the BPT sabot. There is a pressue level that when exceeded, the result is blown sabots. Dixie continues to work on a general hunting load. The so-called Flex-Seal just does not work! Bullet diameters fron .500" up have been tried. Dixe has settled on a finsh dropped
.503" hard cast.
There have been some excellent work done wih the basic hard cast design. The bullet is right in all respects....it's the sabot that is causing the problem. It must have a firm hard wad column. No one knows right now what the final velocity/powder weight and type will be?
The final work to solve these problems will be done right here on Cast Boolits indeed. The basic design for the bullet is right....some of different diameters and alloy. Anyone just starting work with this sabot can save some sweat by following what has already been proven.
Regards, James

turbo1889
12-04-2008, 01:44 AM
turbo1889:

Wrong website. I'm the one who cut the mould shown above. Click on the link at the bottom of this post. Or, send me a PM, perhaps I may be able to help.

RRR

Thanks for the re-direct, from looking over your sight it becomes apparent that you specialize in smooth sided molds for paper patching. You also seem to specialize in hollow base (and hollow point from your above posted picture) molds including adjustable molds. Those are three things that send most mold makers into the "take a great big jack to the price tag and start pumping the handle" mode. It also appears that you are willing to offer multiple core pins for the same mold -- something that also sends most other mold cutters into "quadruple the price" mode. And you are doing all this at reasonable prices -- so long as the mold is a smooth sided cut.

As of present the molds on my drawing board don't include any smooth sided designs but I have had them cut before and very well may need them cut again. I will be looking you up again if and when such a mold design is on the drawing board. In fact I quite frankly wish I had found you about four months ago -- I've got a smooth sided adjustable mold on order with another mold cutter and it cost me a bundle and it still isn't done yet or even started for all I know. :roll:

Dixie Slugs
12-04-2008, 10:13 AM
I followed the link over and looked at his molds, etc......I am very impressed, to say the least, with what I see indeed.
I already see one I would like to order for my 1853 3-Band Enfield.
Now...the introduction of the BPI sabot. even with its apparent problems, will open up an entire new reloading project for many cast bullet fans.
Smooth side molds are not a new concept. Many of the Brit guns used them. What is great is there is a mold maker out there that can service those that desire to work with the BPI sabot. Dixie was the first to come up with a bullet design expressly for the BPI sabot....includuing the great work from some others that set the final shank length to fit under the tits on the sabot. The basic design is showing excellent longer ange accuracy for many that are working on the overall design for the BPI sabot.
The basic problem, at present, is not the bullet design indeed.....but rather the problen with the cushion part of the BPI sabot...it's just not needed. Rather it needs a firm wad column....that was discovered early!
Dixie has a different set of problems/needs than the reloader. In order for us to put a sabot round on the market.....we have to use unaltered components! We can not be cutting the cushion part off, etc.
And final...I think there is a pressure level that the present BPI sabot will fail, no matter what the loader does. I do not think the velocity that some may want can be reached......not with a bullet over 300/350 grains. Only time will tell about that.
The next problem is....do we invest time and money developing a finished sabot/bullet design....where BPI, due to the bad press, might dump the sabot?
It's happened before and left many with molds, etc that can not be used. This also is to be seen.
Regards, James

BABore
12-04-2008, 10:58 AM
I sure have been pondering the following;

Where does Barnes Bullets get their sabots for the 10 rnd, do-it-yourself reloading kit? They include a X12X, sabot, and their copper HP. Load data is included and rather limited. Velocities are fairly mild, but they shoot like gang-busters. When I contacted them about more agressive data, they replied back that there was a very narrow velocity window where they could get a stable bullet release and not overly abuse the sabot material.

What is the sabot material that's used on the T/C, Knight, and Hornady magnum muzzle loader sabots? They all visually appear to be from the same supplier. They hold up to some pretty impressive velocities.

Would it be possible to use the same material as the mag MZ sabots and combine it with the Barnes sabot design or something similar.

Can we use the power of the Group Buy to fund the injectionmold cost along with a large sabot order. One where a certain commercial loader may participate. I don't think any of this is rocket science. We just need to find the right manufacturer and material for the sabot. Since most of the major's already have a design on the market we have plenty to go by. Might even be able to piggyback an order on an already existing design. We already have our own ability to make boolit molds and boolits to match a sabot.

And finally, is there any hope of convincing BPI to make a sabot run without the cushion base? Hell, even pull the pins and mold it solid instead of cushioned.

Dixie Slugs
12-04-2008, 12:12 PM
You are asking lots of questions I can't answer. I do not think consideration of cost for molds and the number of sabots needed for a realistic run is being taken into consideration.
I have talked to Dave Fackler in detail and I do not think they will alter their molds for the BPI sabot....ergo a solid base as they think it would cause fractures (their answer, not mine).
I have gone as far as I have time to with the changing of the sabot . I have posted all I know or could find out. As I have said before, in order to put a sabot load on the market, Dixie must have a standard component...and at a price we could compete with.
We have a working round now using the BPI sabot (as is) and our .503"- 450 gr designed hard cast bullet. But, the final velocity has not been established (based on the highest pressure/velocity without blowing the sabot).
Let's be realistic.....there are other sabots on the market...but, the price to Dixie would mean we could not be competitive.....nor are we willing to commit to the volume a maker of sabots would want, since we have no idea what loaded round price the market would bear.
Dixie original plan was to make a moderate velocity general hunting round. There is no way I will let Dixie get into the pissing contests I see on some of there so-called slug shootig forums dicussing (cussing) the different sabot loads on the market.
Bottom line is this.....the present BPI sabot will work, as is, for loads below the pressure limits of the BPI sabot. What those pressure limits are and at what the final weight bullet/velocity has not been established.
Maybe this is not what people want to hear, but the facts are there is no way for Dixie to know if the shooter/hunter would even buy a finished load.
Dixie is happy to share with reloaders any, and all, data we work up on a finished load. But...very few, if any, reloaders would buy our finished ronds. That's just the nature of the reloader market. So..I have to wear two hats on this...one as an ammo maker and one that will try to cater to the reloader. That ain't easy!
Regards, James

44man
12-04-2008, 02:33 PM
I do not believe the cushion is the problem. I believe the bottom of the sabot is too thin at .110", combined with little front support to hold a boolit. I think more could have been done with no increase in price.
I pulled out one of my Hammer head slugs and you can see it is made from cheaper material, (Polyethylene.) has no petals but has a bottom .205" thick. The slug top edge sits on top of the sabot and half the push is on the front of the slug. The slug can not move back through the sabot as it is fully supported front and rear.
The Hammer Head sabot has TWO cushion areas and a gas seal.
It was designed so the sabot stays on the slug to the target acting like vanes on an arrow. Accuracy at 100 yd's is unreal.
These cost me $20 for 25 sabot's, slugs and primed cases and included a roll crimp tool. All I needed was powder.
I have shot 1-1/2" to 2" 100 yd groups and the slug is supposed to be accurate to 150 yd's.
The Hastings sabot loads are EXACTLY THE SAME HAMMER HEAD SLUGS.
I am sure BPI could have done a lot better without a price increase and they might have been cheaper.
All of the ammo companies have developed great shooting sabot loads but none has equaled the Hammer Head for accuracy.

44man
12-04-2008, 02:43 PM
Now guys, why not make a boolit with a front edge like the hammer head to sit on the middle of the front taper and also at the base?

BABore
12-05-2008, 10:35 AM
I am generally ignorant on shotgun slug loading. With help from James, I'm learning. In the meantime, I'm testing and falling back on my cast boolit and ML loading-sabot shooting knowledge.

With a ML, anytime you distort the sabot, usually from jamming it down a fouled bore, it won't shoot worth beans. Applying this to the BPI sabot, I would think you would want to see them in perfect condition when recovered. i.e. no holes burn marks etc. Also, take a look at the base of the recovered boolits pictured at the start of this thread. See how the boolit's base is imprinted with the inside bottom of the sabot cup. To me, that means it's getting slammed hard.

I saw the same thing happening in my initial test loads. I never got any blown sabots, but I was also listening to Dixie's advice on support. I eliminated the boolit base upsetting in a couple of ways. I heat treated the boolits. While this did nothing to help the slamming, they didn't deform anymore. To reduce the slamming I tried two methods. The first was to crush the cushion sabot base with my press, prior to roll crimping. The second was to just remove the sabot's cushion. In both cases, slamming was eliminated. I agree that the solid portion of the sabot base should be thicker. I believe that the cushion is just too soft and wimpy. It sort of acts like a wad of dacron tamped down tight on a powder charge instead of a loose tuft. But, it is what it is. I uderstand that James can't simply wack of the cushions for a production load. Maybe just collapsing the cushion column will work just as good. All's I know is when I eliminated the slack from the cushion, my recovered sabots looked like you could reload the over again. No scorching what-so-ever. A good firm, soild, wad column of NC wads seems like it does the trick.

I'm half tempted to make up a new mold/boolit for the Precision TUPR123 steel shot wad and try that for a sabot. The only thing stopping me is that there are no tits to keep the boolit from shifting forward when it slams into the forcing cone.

Dixie Slugs
12-05-2008, 10:58 AM
I am very pleased indeed to see all you folks working on this BPI project. I am also pleased to see that you are understanding the difference in a production load and one that the reloader can make for his situation.....many can not seem to understand the difference.
I like to see these How-To-Do posts! We see so little of that in the Hot Gas being pumped out in the Gun Rags!
Last night. Todd Corder and I had two long telephone comversations. He has sent me a DVD movie showing the tactual shooting tests of the Dixie Tusker at the John Linebaugh Semianar....really great stuff. We plan to have he DVD cut and edited where it can by posted on Dixie for all to see.
Todd and I also talked about some new projects that Dixe is considering. Some are quite interesting and are aimed at general hunting situations.
Dixie is in constant communication with ground zero hunter/shooters and the feed back is most important! There have been hundreds of deer and hogs put down with the Dixie Tri-Ball loads. the folks here on Cast Boolits are light years ahead of any other group (forum) on working with the BPI sabot! They undersatnd cast bullets, large and small, and will solve the problems before anyone elas indeed!
It goes without saying that Ole' Dixie leans toward cast bullets....of all sizes!
Regards, James

44man
12-05-2008, 11:17 AM
I have not made a decision on how important the tits are or if they are strong enough to grip hard lead, or any lead for that matter. The Hammer head has nothing to hold the slug in, just a snug fit. Yet I only recover the sabot after they go through the targets at 100 yd's. At impact, the sabot rolls back evenly just like it was roll crimped as the slug expands. For not having anything to hold the slug in, it actually works.
I tried support with the BPI and the slug poked a hole through the hard cards and the gas seal. I did use the load from their paper and think it is too hot or the powder too fast.
I don't know how much pressure you needed to crush the section but 80# does not even move it. I really think we need a new design with the whole bottom of the sabot solid, just remove the holes in the crush section. Other crush wads can be used under it. Then there should be a front ledge instead of the full taper on the fingers. Why do we even need fingers? Make it solid.
By having to try all kinds of funny things and just getting one thing to work somewhat, it shows a basic flaw to the design. This thing should shoot anything stuck in it with a whole range of loads. I don't know what else to say but to waste 50# of lead and to make special molds just to get a few to shoot shows they need to go back to the drawing board.
Now the funny thing about the Hammer Head is that the outside of the sabot is only .715" yet it grips the rifling just fine. The material is soft enough to expand into the grooves without damage. Recovered sabot's show rifling.

Al in Mi
12-26-2008, 08:36 AM
Rick, do you sell just the bullets?

thx, Al

Greg5278
12-29-2008, 01:08 PM
Some people have mentioned the tits retaining the bullet. If it is a problem in heavy recoiling loads, I have a solution. You can use a small amount of Permatex High Tack gasket maker. It sticks to the bullet and wad or sabot well. You only need a dab near the base. The idea is to give a little grab, without glueing the bullet to the Sabot. It has worked so far in my Machined Delrin Sabots, which are very slick.

Greg

Dixie Slugs
12-29-2008, 02:32 PM
Who is Rick?.....Regards, James

turbo1889
12-31-2008, 02:17 AM
The guy who started the thread and cut the mold has a screen name of "Red River Rick" --- I presume that is who "Rick" is.

eye shot
02-10-2009, 09:57 PM
A hunting load I'm working up with the BLS-12.
420gr. .511" hard cast boolit, knurld on file.
25mm brass Cheddite primed 2 3/4 hull roll crimped.
1/8" nitro card under sabot.
1- X12X gas seal.
38gr. Longshot.

This load had a mild recoil and the sabots opened up nicely with no punch threw the center of sabot. I chronyed them at 1640 fps. out of a 24" barrel. Since the boolit is a little lighter than the BPI recipe for .500 slug I'll work up to a couple grs. more powder, but want to stay at or under 1700fps. for a 1-34 twist barrel.

Red River Rick
02-11-2009, 03:53 PM
Eye Shot:

Good information. I was wondering about the velocity, I wasn't able to chronograph my loads but I know they where moving along pretty good, your data strengthens my beliefs.

Once it warms up around here, I'll resume my testing.

RRR