"Did Jesus Rise from the Grave?"

[exile]

Did Jesus rise from the Grave? Fact or Fiction? Myth or Reality? Sure and Certain Hope or Baseless Vanity?

What do you think?

exile

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If you are a Christian, then you'd better hope that he did........ to paraphrase Paul, if He didn't then there is no hope for our resurrection. Yes, of course he did. If you believe the Holy Bible, His resurrection caused quite a stir at the time, and He later appeared to his followers. If you don't believe in the events recorded in the Holy Bible, then there is no point to your question as you are an atheist. His resurrection is "what's it's all about." It is the Gospel.

[dtknowles]

If you are a Christian, then you'd better hope that he did........ to paraphrase Paul, if He didn't then there is no hope for our resurrection. Yes, of course he did. If you believe the Holy Bible, His resurrection caused quite a stir at the time, and He later appeared to his followers. If you don't believe in the events recorded in the Holy Bible, then there is no point to your question as you are an atheist. His resurrection is "what's it's all about." It is the Gospel.

Not believing the Bible does not make a person an atheist, it just means they are not a Christian. You can believe in God and not believe in the Bible.

Tim

[1hole]

A lot of people witnessed both the crucifiction and resurrection of Jesus then went to their own cruel deaths because they would not recant what they knew. Dieing the way so many of them did takes more than "blind faith", it takes certainty.

So, yes, by any reasonable standard, Jesus was/is risen. And He is not "a" god, He IS God and there is no other.

[dtknowles]

There is but one God. The creator of the Universe.

Tim

[dtknowles]

A lot of people witnessed both the crucifiction and resurrection of Jesus then went to their own cruel deaths because they would not recant what they knew......

You know this, how? Where do you find this history? What do you consider a lot of people? Do these people have names?

Tim

[johnho]

If you are a Christian, then you'd better hope that he did........ to paraphrase Paul, if He didn't then there is no hope for our resurrection. Yes, of course he did. If you believe the Holy Bible, His resurrection caused quite a stir at the time, and He later appeared to his followers. If you don't believe in the events recorded in the Holy Bible, then there is no point to your question as you are an atheist. His resurrection is "what's it's all about." It is the Gospel.

How can you say that if person doesn't believe in the Bible they are an atheist? There are many different religions in the world what makes your religion the only one? this was the very meaning of our independence and the meaning in the First Amendment. One thing almost all religions have is the belief in a single God. What difference does it make how one reaches out to God? for you to say that simply supports the same ideology of Islam, believe in my way or else. I believe in the Bible but only in the Old Testament. I am not an atheist and for you to claim I am is repugnant. I looked up what the meaning of your handle is. Maybe I'm not surprised by your statement after all.

[dtknowles]

.......... And He is not "a" god, He IS God and there is no other.

God is God and is neither a he nor a her.

Tim

[Der Gebirgsjager]

How can you say that if person doesn't believe in the Bible they are an atheist? There are many different religions in the world what makes your religion the only one? this was the very meaning of our independence and the meaning in the First Amendment. One thing almost all religions have is the belief in a single God. What difference does it make how one reaches out to God? for you to say that simply supports the same ideology of Islam, believe in my way or else. I believe in the Bible but only in the Old Testament. I am not an atheist and for you to claim I am is repugnant. I looked up what the meaning of your handle is. Maybe I'm not surprised by your statement after all.

Wow, John, lighten up a bit, will you? I never heard of you before, don't know you, am not a mind reader or psychic. I did not claim that you are an atheist. Are you? It doesn't matter a whit to me-- be what you want to be, just as shall I.

Take a deep breath, and consider this: Every religion in the world believes that they are the true, correct religion. Is that not so? If they didn't believe that then there would either be only one religion, or none at all. I mean, would they waste their time subscribing to a set of beliefs and behavior that they didn't believe in?

Yes, Islam claims to be the one true religion, and so does Christianity. Christianity teaches that there is only one way to salvation, doesn't it? I didn't make that up. As an aside, it's a nice thing that Christians don't behead you for non-belief, whereas the same can't be said for Muslims.

Since you believe only in the Old Testament I take it that you are Jewish? And because my "handle" is German in origin I take it that you find that offensive because of the holocaust? My, my--sensitive aren't we? You'd need to research a little more to understand the meaning of the name, but if it's any comfort my relatives left Germany in 1923. It's about as fair for you to make that insinuation as for me to speculate that your relatives are pawnbrokers. If you are indeed of Jewish descent, then you must know that your ancestors persecuted the early Christians, demanded that Pilot crucify our Lord; and that the Torah and the Hebrew religion, although they may attempt to live in peace with other religions, believe that theirs is the only true religion. So why do you find it unreasonable that a Christian should believe the same about his religion? Rather intolerant, aren't you?

I stand before you to say that the only way to salvation is through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. You may reject it, put it out of your mind, rail against it, but someday all of us, Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc. shall stand before God and be judged. I'll offer you this, which is quite in conflict and contrast to the conventional Christian doctrines: I believe that all will be given the chance at that time to accept the sacrifice and salvation, no matter what beliefs they adhered to in this life. When we see him on his throne with the nail marks in his wrists and ankles and the mark of the spear in his side, it will be impossible for most to deny him. Only the truly, incorrigibly evil shall be thrown into the Lake of Fire to suffer the second death. Far out, eh? Study the Book of the Revelation-- not found in the Old Testament.

Religion, politics, and Gew 88s bore sizes are all bad subjects in which to engage, as the conversation almost immediately becomes conflict. I regret having answered the OP, and shall disconnect from this thread. But John-- lighten up a bit, will you?

[GhostHawk]

Beyond all doubt. "He is Risen! He is Risen indeed!"

If you do not or can not believe that, well there is Islam, Buddism, Zen, you name it. Many many choices.

But if you call yourself a Christian, you have to believe he was Raised from the dead.

[BNE]

Yes, He rose.

[Pilgrim Sojourner]

I believe the Bible is the Word of God. He is risen indeed!

[ioon44]

Yes, He has risen indeed and He lives for ever more.

[Outpost75]

[Sarcasm Mode ON]

Somebody explain to me the Scientologists concept that Christ was a shape-shifting space alien that was beamed up to the Mother ship? Does Tom Cruise read this forum?

[Sarcasm Mode OFF] Bless me Father for I have sinned...

[ioon44]

My guess would be deception, Jesus warned us 4 times in Matthew ch 24 about being deceived.

[wv109323]

There are many beliefs about diety in the world. If there is one God then there is one way to please him and I believe that is the Holy Bible. As specific as things are in nature,then I assume God has a specific way in which He wants us to worship him. My personal research has concluded that the Bible is Gods Word and we should abide by it.
If there are different conflicting beliefs how many can be correct? Would an all powerful God have many ways to approach Him? I think not. God honors obedience.

[Snow ninja]

There are many beliefs about diety in the world. If there is one God then there is one way to please him and I believe that is the Holy Bible. As specific as things are in nature,then I assume God has a specific way in which He wants us to worship him. My personal research has concluded that the Bible is Gods Word and we should abide by it.
If there are different conflicting beliefs how many can be correct? Would an all powerful God have many ways to approach Him? I think not. God honors obedience. This is where my questions come in. Out of 7.3 billion people on this Earth, Give or take 5.3 billion people disagree with you. What makes this one the ONLY one?

[Dieselhorses]

"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

Hebrews 4:12


"Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:47

Yes He has risen! He is our ONLY hope! My belief is not persuaded by a book full of words, my belief is persuaded by a God is omnipotent-the same yesterday, today and forevermore!

[1hole]

Do any of our doubters want to suggest any other person who has had the lasting impact on history and humanity than that of Jesus after his mortal death and eternal resurrection?

[Hogtamer]

Another thread separating the sheep from the goats.

[tankgunner59]

This is where my questions come in. Out of 7.3 billion people on this Earth, Give or take 5.3 billion people disagree with you. What makes this one the ONLY one?

Hallelujah, He is risen!

In His word He warns us that many will be unbelievers. What makes HIM the only one for me is not the Bible, which is His unerring word, but it is that He has spoken to me many times. Before you ask, no I have never heard His voice... with my ears. But I have many times "heard" His guidance for my life with my spiritual heart. If you wish to know about God and His Son, our Lord and Savior, why don't you ask Him? But, if you truly desire to know Him, then be respectful and quiet your mind, open your heart and listen. He will answer you, if you're not interested in being sincere and serious then believe what you choose. Perhaps you should read 1 Kings 18:20-40.

The Lord tells us, " be in the world, but not of the world". In other words don't do what the world does just because that's what the world does. Don't be a follower of the world!

[dtknowles]

Do any of our doubters want to suggest any other person who has had the lasting impact on history and humanity than that of Jesus after his mortal death and eternal resurrection?

Your Eurocentric world view blinds you to the greater world. Buddha, Dalai Lama, Muhammad or Confucius.

Tim

[Snow ninja]

Hallelujah, He is risen!

In His word He warns us that many will be unbelievers. What makes HIM the only one for me is not the Bible, which is His unerring word, but it is that He has spoken to me many times. Before you ask, no I have never heard His voice... with my ears. But I have many times "heard" His guidance for my life with my spiritual heart. If you wish to know about God and His Son, our Lord and Savior, why don't you ask Him? But, if you truly desire to know Him, then be respectful and quiet your mind, open your heart and listen. He will answer you, if you're not interested in being sincere and serious then believe what you choose. Perhaps you should read 1 Kings 18:20-40.

The Lord tells us, " be in the world, but not of the world". In other words don't do what the world does just because that's what the world does. Don't be a follower of the world!

I'm familiar with the story of Elijah. And I have, many times, sat in silence and listened. I guess my personal issue is with blind Faith. Billy Graham could've built a campfire and asked the Lord to light it, do you think it would've spontaneously combusted? The people of Moses witnessed miracle after miracle and still doubted and did not believe. I personally cannot just blindly follow something that I cannot witness. I really wish I could.

[1hole]

Your Eurocentric world view blinds you to the greater world. Buddha, Dalai Lama, Muhammad or Confucius.

Tim

I haven't a clue what your Eurocentric world means but Christianity rose in the mid-east.

Do you seriously think God - or we - cares what your beloved innerlecsually blind "greater world" believes? God's spiritual world is truth; truth is NOT a subject to be settled by taking a vote of mush headed spiritual no-nothings.

When all is said and done, much more is said than done. After all of it, one fact remains; no one in has had the historical impact of Jesus' sinless life, vicarious death and victorious resurrection.

[Thundarstick]

Another thread separating the sheep from the goats.

Amen, that's what most of them seem to be anymore. If you can't, our won't believe the witness recorded, view the historical evidence, or recognize the power of the resurrection and Jesus intervention for us, then God help you on the day you are resurrected to stand before THE GOD with no intercession from his son!

There's plenty of evidence that Jesus is God's son and arose from the dead. It's up to each of us what we do with it.

[dtknowles]

Amen, that's what most of them seem to be anymore. If you can't, our won't believe the witness recorded, view the historical evidence, or recognize the power of the resurrection and Jesus intervention for us, then God help you on the day you are resurrected to stand before THE GOD with no intercession from his son!

There's plenty of evidence that Jesus is God's son and arose from the dead. It's up to each of us what we do with it.

There is no witness recorded evidence only hearsay. What evidence there is has weak providence and convoluted chain of custody. I don't think doctrine says we are resurrected to appear before God, we meet God the moment of our death. I have no fear of appearing before God to be judged without Jesus. How are you going to feel if Jesus is not there?

Tim

[dtknowles]

I haven't a clue what your Eurocentric world means but Christianity rose in the mid-east.

Do you seriously think God - or we - cares what your beloved innerlecsually blind "greater world" believes? God's spiritual world is truth; truth is NOT a subject to be settled by taking a vote of mush headed spiritual no-nothings.

When all is said and done, much more is said than done. After all of it, one fact remains; no one in has had the historical impact of Jesus' sinless life, vicarious death and victorious resurrection.

Eurocentric world view disregards the beliefs and cultures of native peoples of Asia, Africa, Australia, Pacific Islanders and the Americas. Jesus' historical impact on the World is less than it appears you imagine. Less than one third of the people of the world are Christian. A quarter are Islamist. It is a close call on whether the Christians or the Islamists have done more evil. It is not clear if Jesus has made the world a better place. I think the world would be a better place of we were all Confucians. Confucianism revolves around the pursuit of the unity of the individual self and the God of Heaven.

Tim

[1hole]

Surprise, surprise! :) Thank you for all that help but even little ol' me knows what the book definition of Eurocentric is. What I still don't know is how you think it means anything in this conversation.

While I suppose Eurocentric is an impressive sounding word, I don't believe it means a thing as you first posed it because I believe all, or nearly all, of us know a bit about all those other religions and have rejected them without a single thought of how Europeans believe. ???

[dtknowles]

Surprise, surprise! :) Thank you for all that help but even little ol' me knows what the book definition of Eurocentric is. What I still don't know is how you think it means anything in this conversation.

While I suppose Eurocentric is an impressive sounding word, I don't believe it means a thing as you first posed it because I believe all, or nearly all, of us know a bit about all those other religions and have rejected them without a single thought of how Europeans believe. ???

It was the Spanish, Dutch, British and Portuguese that spread Christianity to Asia, Africa, North America, South America and Australia. You are probably a European, you can't help but think like a European. There was a time when most North Americans were Europeans. I am a European who made it a point to look outside my European/American culture to find something better.

Tim

[Dieselhorses]

We should fear God. He isn’t the end of the day “time clock” that we punch after living. And how are you gonna feel if Jesus is there? After all Jesus said..

Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32

Ever heard of having something and not needing it as opposed to needing something and not having it? We all take pride in gun ownership, shooting, reloading and spreading the holy sacrament of the second amendment. God looks down sometimes and just wishes and hopes we all would take stock in Him like that! I’ll be the first to admit I need to put more into this Admiration! But yes, there will be a judgment day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1hole]

I am a European who made it a point to look outside my European/American culture to find something better.

Tim

Ah, yes, there it is! But, you aren't the first man to think you have found better ways than God's way; Adam would totally understand you.

It's sad that you "know" so much and understand so little.

[Dieselhorses]

All of us here who are self proclaimed Christians, born again, washed in the blood, sanctified, redeemed, opted to have our names written in the "Lamb's Book of Life", baptized, converted, turned from all old ways to Follow Jesus, started believing....or however you want to put it, we all understand things on a spiritual level. As someone mentioned earlier "we're in this world, but not of this world".

Our responsibility is to exhibit the same love Christ has for us to others, not to judge or dictate or argue the spirits but instead convey that unconditional Agape love that only the Father and the Son has for us. We were all given free will. We all have the capacity to believe whatever. The kicker is, "God" is "God" and Him being "God" is not going to love a serial killer ANY less than a divine Christian! Jesus is there with open arms to accept ANYONE who wants to let Him lead their life. The devil once tried to oppress me with the thought that by handing my life over to Jesus that I would be joining a "cult". NADA, I told him! Oh the peace and tranquility and the feeling of being "wanted, welcomed and warmed" in the arms of Jesus!

I know there is so many questions, so many things people want "pre-defined", evidence-things you have to see to believe! It's just not how it works! "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things NOT seen" Hebrews 11:1

I would implore everyone who doesn't know Christ as their personal Savior to get to know Him right now! Would I thumb my nose at you if you didn't? Turn my head or roll my eyes? NEVER! It all comes down to the promise God made in John 3:16. But like I said, in the mean time, no matter what you believe-God still loves YOU!

[peachhead]

Not believing the Bible does not make a person an atheist, it just means they are not a Christian. You can believe in God and not believe in the Bible.

Tim

Sure you can, but why would you want to? The Bible is the word of God. Why would you not want to explore it in hopes of gaining some more understanding?

[peachhead]

There is no witness recorded evidence only hearsay. What evidence there is has weak providence and convoluted chain of custody. I don't think doctrine says we are resurrected to appear before God, we meet God the moment of our death. I have no fear of appearing before God to be judged without Jesus. How are you going to feel if Jesus is not there?

Tim

What is written in the Bible is not hearsay. I don't have any doubt at all that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of his Father. I'm sorry you do.

[ioon44]

Yes, well said.
There is nothing better than a relationship with Jesus Christ, any thing else leads to eternal destruction with weeping, wailing & gnashing of teeth.

[salpal48]

God was Created by man to explain the Unexplainable. There are many beliefs throughout history and the world that are Unexplained, does that make then beliefs.

[dtknowles]

Sure you can, but why would you want to? The Bible is the word of God. Why would you not want to explore it in hopes of gaining some more understanding?

I have and do "explore the bible" I find much in the bible to be admired and practiced. If the New Testament is just a parable, fictional story, sometimes called the greatest story ever told, it is still a valuable lesson. I model my life after Jesus but I think the story is a tall tale. I also find the words of Confucius valuable lessons and I try and practice what he taught. Confucius never claimed to be God or that his word were the words of God but his lessons are as valuable as the lessons of Jesus. Reading the Bible and studying what we know of the time and place. The claims that Jesus arose from a tomb and ascended into heaven and then returned in the flesh to appear to his disciples are not substantiated with enough evidence to be convincing. I can't say for sure they did not happen but I would never try and convince anyone that they did, I don't believe they really did happen. People who believe are pretty much taking the Bibles word that the Bible is true. The only thing that says the Bible is the word of God is the Bible.

Tim

[dtknowles]

What is written in the Bible is not hearsay. I don't have any doubt at all that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of his Father. I'm sorry you do.

Much of the bible is certainly hearsay. The authors are repeating stories they heard and did not witness first hand.

Tim

[1hole]

Much of the bible is certainly hearsay. The authors are repeating stories they heard and did not witness first hand.

That's an odd statement, apparently based on your own hearsay because you cite no personal example. Fact is, virtually everything written in scripture is either by personal knowledge or direct revelation from God and retold by personal knowledge.

And, I suppose that from your point of view, "much" of history is only questionable hearsay because very few historians actually participated in the great events they write about so, to them and then to us, it's only hearsay. (Did I get all of that right?)

Ah, Tim, it's sad that you know so much about everything yet seem to understand so little of anything.

[dtknowles]

That's an odd statement, apparently based on your own hearsay because you cite no personal example. Fact is, virtually everything written in scripture is either by personal knowledge or direct revelation from God and retold by personal knowledge.

And, I suppose that from your point of view "much" of history is only hearsay because very few historians actually participated in the great events they write about so, to them and then to us, it's only hearsay. (Did I get all of that right?)

Ah, Tim, it's sad that you know so much about everything yet seem to understand so little of anything.

Scholarly history is based on recorded eyewitness testimony backed up by physical evidence. The authors of historical books don't have to have witnessed the events if they can cite records of the actual eye witnesses. Do you understand how scholarly history books are written? The bibles are the recording of oral traditions with no references to recorded eyewitness testimony. They are stories passed verbally from one person to the next sometimes over a period of centuries before they were recorded in the bible. The New Testament stories were recorded by authors who did not witness the events and maybe did not actually talk to the witnesses. Some of them were not even written by the suggested authors.

The Bibles are not scholarly history books. They are more accurately referred to as Legends.

legend
1a: a story coming down from the past
especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable.

Legends often suffer from a bit of embellishment.

Why do you think that Jesus rising from the grave means Jesus is God? After all his mother did not even die, she was taken up to heaven, living body and soul at the end of her life.

Several scriptural passages have been theologically interpreted to describe the ultimate fate in this and the afterworld of the Mother of Jesus. Various apocryphal documents do contain narrations of the Assumption of Mary.

Tim

[Dieselhorses]

Scholarly history is based on recorded eyewitness testimony backed up by physical evidence. The authors of historical books don't have to have witnessed the events if they can cite records of the actual eye witnesses. Do you understand how scholarly history books are written? The bibles are the recording of oral traditions with no references to recorded eyewitness testimony. They are stories passed verbally from one person to the next sometimes over a period of centuries before they were recorded in the bible. The New Testament stories were recorded by authors who did not witness the events and maybe did not actually talk to the witnesses. Some of them were not even written by the suggested authors.

The Bibles are not scholarly history books. They are more accurately referred to as Legends.

legend
1a: a story coming down from the past
especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable.

Legends often suffer from a bit of embellishment.

Why do you think that Jesus rising from the grave means Jesus is God? After all his mother did not even die, she was taken up to heaven, living body and soul at the end of her life.

Several scriptural passages have been theologically interpreted to describe the ultimate fate in this and the afterworld of the Mother of Jesus. Various apocryphal documents do contain narrations of the Assumption of Mary.

Tim

Munch on this...https://truthfaithandreason.com/a-case-for-the-bible-the-importance-of-understanding-how-eyewitness-testimony-corroborates-biblical-accounts-when-practicing-christian-apologetics/

I guess my question is, in the grand scheme of things, why on earth would someone have any doubt about a "book", that is not advertised on TV, endorsed by the media, not forced down peoples throats, but is free to read and/or believe by anyone and just sits there in the bookstore waiting to be purchased. In addition, the Bible has a certain degree of complexity and is not easily perceived by your average reader. There are scriptures in the Old Testament that are relevant to events in the New Testament.

I know one thing, if a person had endless documents, proven historical eye witness accounts and all the concrete proof in the world, the kind of belief you would gain after the fact is not the kind of belief necessary to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven!

https://www.truthortradition.com/articles/did-god-really-forsake-jesus-christ-on-the-cross

[Blackwater]

Much of the bible is certainly hearsay. The authors are repeating stories they heard and did not witness first hand.

Tim

Gee whiz, Tim! Many of the stories and parables you refer to were written down by those who DID see and hear what transpired, and then were copied in perpetuity by people who are humble enough to want and need to know about these writings. Your denials are very obviously based on your inner desire to DENY their truth. So be it. But your one-man religion will NOT stand you in good stead, I don't believe, at the Throne of Judgment, and I believe it's because of your haughty desire to DENY their Truth. God help you.

[Blackwater]

I believe that Christ suffered himself to be scourged and put to death, and that He then rose from the dead, and sits in Heaven to this day. He HAD to rise from the dead. No other leader of any other religion has ever risen from the dead. Only Christ, and THAT is what separates Him from all the other central figures of all other religions. If the son of the living God couldn't arise from the grave, from dead to the living, how could he legitimately claim to be a real god???? God sent all manner of prophets and miracles and wonders, and yet, people STILL would not believe and submit. What else was left but to SHOW us the real power of a legitimate and living God? God did NOT create us and the world we live in just to see us blown away like dust in the wind. He LOVES us, and wants us to thrive and be happy. He left a very large book full of advice and direction that, if we simply follow, will lead us to joys and pleasures and satisfactions beyond our wildest dreams and aspirations. If only we'll humbly submit and follow.

Sometimes I wonder if we don't read the Bible just looking for something to argue about. But that's not why God gave it to us. It's the key to unlocking all that we want and need to know - all that the human mind needs to overcome our more "natural" tendencies to go or drift slowly astray. Would that we simply used it this way - as a personal key to unlocking the answers to the questions that naturally arise. But faith and trust are part of the process, too. Without faith and trust, nothing is elucidated, and never will be. Those who have no faith or trust, and who rely ONLY on their own sensibilitiess, will never "see" all that's in there.

[dannyd]

I believe he did rise from the Grave. That's my opinion your mileage may very.

[dtknowles]

Munch on this...https://truthfaithandreason.com/a-case-for-the-bible-the-importance-of-understanding-how-eyewitness-testimony-corroborates-biblical-accounts-when-practicing-christian-apologetics/

I guess my question is, in the grand scheme of things, why on earth would someone have any doubt about a "book", that is not advertised on TV, endorsed by the media, not forced down peoples throats, but is free to read and/or believe by anyone and just sits there in the bookstore waiting to be purchased. In addition, the Bible has a certain degree of complexity and is not easily perceived by your average reader. There are scriptures in the Old Testament that are relevant to events in the New Testament.

I know one thing, if a person had endless documents, proven historical eye witness accounts and all the concrete proof in the world, the kind of belief you would gain after the fact is not the kind of belief necessary to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven!

https://www.truthortradition.com/articles/did-god-really-forsake-jesus-christ-on-the-cross

The Bible is the most advertised and promoted book ever written. There are even versions written specifically to indoctrinate pre-school children. Are you kidding me when you say the Bible is not advertised on TV? It certainly is endorsed by the Media. It is endorsed by the Christian Media. More free copies of the Bible are distributed than any other book except maybe the Quran.

if a person had endless documents, proven historical eye witness accounts and all the concrete proof in the world, you would have belief based on reason and not based on faith. Why should you have to believe in something not proven to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? It is hard enough to get people to believe what has been proved. It seems it is easier to get people to believe in lies they want to hear than the truth they don't want to hear.

Tim

[Ozark mike]

I usually try not to get involved in these debates I think people are focused on the wrong thing he came to teach men and lead by example show us the wrong of our ways yet people argue about whether he was the son of god and if the miracles he preformed really happend where did we go wrong

[dtknowles]

Gee whiz, Tim! Many of the stories and parables you refer to were written down by those who DID see and hear what transpired, and then were copied in perpetuity by people who are humble enough to want and need to know about these writings. Your denials are very obviously based on your inner desire to DENY their truth. So be it. But your one-man religion will NOT stand you in good stead, I don't believe, at the Throne of Judgment, and I believe it's because of your haughty desire to DENY their Truth. God help you.

I do not have a one man religion. I just believe what I believe, that is not a religion.

Name more than a couple bible stories or parables written by the eyewitnesses. Name the eyewitnesses and then produce a reference to the document produced by their own hand.

I will make it even easier. Produce a reference to a document of a bible story written by someone who claims to be an eyewitness. It is clear that none of the Apostles or Authors of the New Testament were eyewitnesses to either Jesus' crucifixion or his reresection. None of the Authors claim to be eyewitnesses. I do think it is likely that Jesus was crucified but still no eyewitness record.

Tim

[dangitgriff]

Did they ever get a positive I.D. on this Jesus fellow? How can we be sure it’s him and not an alien overlord when he comes back as predicted? Will they allow him to vote?
The cosmos is incomprehensibly vast...what are the odds we’re the only planet in the whole of the universe privileged enough to rate a messiah? What if our planet is already doomed to destruction and none of its biological life forms are responsible for the outcome? What if faith is ignorance wrapped in bliss?
Only the dead know for sure.

[dtknowles]

Did they ever get a positive I.D. on this Jesus fellow? How can we be sure it’s him and not an alien overlord when he comes back as predicted? Will they allow him to vote?
The cosmos is incomprehensibly vast...what are the odds we’re the only planet in the whole of the universe privileged enough to rate a messiah? What if our planet is already doomed to destruction and none of its biological life forms are responsible for the outcome? What if faith is ignorance wrapped in bliss?
Only the dead know for sure.

It might be a bad thing to educate the ignorant who are living in bliss unless they are doing harm.

Only those who have achieved life after death know for sure, the rest of the dead know nothing. Then there is the possibility that everyone has a life after death, just some have a nicer life than others.

Tim

[1hole]

... Then there is the possibility that everyone has a life after death, just some have a nicer life than others.

That's much more than a possibility, it's a certainty.

[dtknowles]

That's much more than a possibility, it's a certainty.

You know this how?

Tim

[dannyd]

You know this how?

Tim

We know though Faith. Man would not give eternal life without getting something in return because of his greed. Your there on the Gulf next Hurricane comes take the boat out in it. It's an awesome experience and It will show you the wonder of God's Power. But the best thing about it is that Everything is going to be Alright no matter what happens because your saved..

[1hole]

Tim, I rarely wrestle pigs in their own mud, the pigs enjoy it and it just gets me muddy without accomplishing anything good.

Our job is to tell others of Jesus, not to beat truth into other's heads; we've done that so our obligation before God has been fulfilled so your blood is not on our hands.

[dtknowles]

We know though Faith. Man would not give eternal life without getting something in return because of his greed. Your there on the Gulf next Hurricane comes take the boat out in it. It's an awesome experience and It will show you the wonder of God's Power. But the best thing about it is that Everything is going to be Alright no matter what happens because your saved..

Have you ever taken a boat out into a hurricane, I mean really into the hurricane?

I am not an athiest. Their is God, the creator of all that is. I don't need to be shown anything more about God's power, I believe God created everything that is? That is not faith, that is reason, it could be no other way. I don't know how God did it, it was probably sort of like what is written in the Bible but that does not explain much.

My first Hurricane was was Ginny in 1963 we lost power and the streets flooded. The next was David in 1979 again lost power and had many trees down. I have ridden out or evacuated for at least a dozen hurricanes since then including Katrina where I could not get back to the house for two weeks, when I got back a tree was down through the roof and ceiling of the master bedroom. I slept in a spare room while I (with the help of contractors) repaired the house so my wife could move back home.

Hurricanes are nothing compared to Krakatoa or Mt. St. Helens or a Super Nova. What God can't do can't be done. Often it is hard to understand what God won't do. Those are the things books like the Bible are written about to ease human minds.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Tim, I rarely wrestle pigs in their own mud, the pigs enjoy it and it just gets me muddy without accomplishing anything good.

Our job is to tell others of Jesus, not to beat truth into other's heads; we've done that so our obligation before God has been fulfilled so your blood is not on our hands.

I expect you are sure you are right. Be careful what you preach as you may as yet have blood on your hands. Nobody is more mistaken than when they are absolutely sure they know something especially when they take it on faith.

If you are arguing to convert me you are missing the whole point of this discussion or at least my point. I am preaching to the whole forum that they need to practice what Jesus taught not count on just believing in Jesus as a path to salvation. Jesus death and resurrection don't matter what is important is Jesus message to love your neighbor.

There are the greedy, prideful, selfish, hateful people who need to hear the message and not just think they will go to heaven if they believe Jesus is a risen God.

Tim

[1hole]

...I am preaching to the whole forum that they need to practice what Jesus taught not count on just believing in Jesus as a path to salvation. Jesus death and resurrection don't matter what is important is Jesus message to love your neighbor.

There are the greedy, prideful, selfish, hateful people who need to hear the message and not just think they will go to heaven if they believe Jesus is a risen God.

Jesus death and resurrection certainly does matter but, for the rest of it, no one has said otherwise.

What has been repeatedly explained back to you is that Biblical "belief" is NOT just a head consent to "believe" in Jesus (which is all you're doing). Biblical belief includes the ideas of personally following, clinging to and trusting in the one who is believed; then the good works you are hung up on will follow, then your good works would be atribitual to Him, not yourself. Your error is that you effectively put the cart before the horse by seeking to be a "worthy" Christian BECAUSE of your good works; that's self righteousness and it fails, everytime. Thing you're ignoring in this is that God measures the heart, not the list of good things you did last week while trying to be sufficently self righteous to be saved.

Bottom line, good works are good accomplishments so far as that goes but none of us can put God into debt to us because we think we've probably done enough good works to be owed His salvation.

Right now you're spiritually blinded, adrift in rocky waters without anchor, paddle or compass and there be many monsters there.

[dannyd]

Have you ever taken a boat out into a hurricane, I mean really into the hurricane?

I am not an athiest. Their is God, the creator of all that is. I don't need to be shown anything more about God's power, I believe God created everything that is? That is not faith, that is reason, it could be no other way. I don't know how God did it, it was probably sort of like what is written in the Bible but that does not explain much.

My first Hurricane was was Ginny in 1963 we lost power and the streets flooded. The next was David in 1979 again lost power and had many trees down. I have ridden out or evacuated for at least a dozen hurricanes since then including Katrina where I could not get back to the house for two weeks, when I got back a tree was down through the roof and ceiling of the master bedroom. I slept in a spare room while I (with the help of contractors) repaired the house so my wife could move back home.

Hurricanes are nothing compared to Krakatoa or Mt. St. Helens or a Super Nova. What God can't do can't be done. Often it is hard to understand what God won't do. Those are the things books like the Bible are written about to ease human minds.

Tim


I have covered the whole Gulf of Mexico from west Key West back to West Key West. Did it Three times trying to outrun Hurricanes. Also the Atlantic. North Sea, Black Sea, Mediterranean Sea, Indiana Ocean, Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. Rode out the Perfect Storm in the Atlantic in 1991 (plus many other can't remember all the names) also that year was in a Mediterranean Hurricane they are few and very bad. The great thing we had a load of new Christian on those real bad nights. :)

[dtknowles]

I have covered the whole Gulf of Mexico from west Key West back to West Key West. Did it Three times trying to outrun Hurricanes. Also the Atlantic. North Sea, Black Sea, Mediterranean Sea, Indiana Ocean, Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. Rode out the Perfect Storm in the Atlantic in 1991 (plus many other can't remember all the names) also that year was in a Mediterranean Hurricane they are few and very bad. The great thing we had a load of new Christian on those real bad nights. :)

So you did not take a boat out into a hurricane, you did your best to avoid hurricanes in a ship or at least a yacht not in a boat.


A boat is a watercraft of a large range of types and sizes, but generally smaller than a ship, which is distinguished by its larger size, shape, cargo or passenger cap…

My skipper father in law claimed over 28 ft. a water craft is a yacht I have seen other places that the line is at 33 ft. either way anything that size or bigger is not a boat. It could be you were in something smaller but it would be hard to understand how something smaller could have that kind of range with a load of new Christians.

If I was in that kind of danger I might pray to God to save me but that would not make me a Christian.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

There is no witness recorded evidence only hearsay.

The Gospels of Matthew and John were both written by eyewitnesses. I can't prove this you. But I doubt anything would be sufficient for you anyway.

[dtknowles]

The Gospels of Matthew and John were both written by eyewitnesses. I can't prove this you. But I doubt anything would be sufficient for you anyway.

Who are the eyewitness authors of those Gospels, Matthew and John were both with the other apostles hiding. It was the women who went to Jesus on the cross and it was the women who went to the tomb to find it empty. If you are talking about Jesus coming to the apostles after he was risen, yes that part could be eyewitness accounts, you know the Thomas thing and such. Regarding the Thomas thing. Will Jesus have the scars of his crucifixion forever?

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

Who are the eyewitness authors of those Gospels, Matthew and John were both with the other apostles hiding. It was the women who went to Jesus on the cross and it was the women who went to the tomb to find it empty. If you are talking about Jesus coming to the apostles after he was risen, yes that part could be eyewitness accounts, you know the Thomas thing and such. Regarding the Thomas thing. Will Jesus have the scars of his crucifixion forever?

Tim

There was more to see of Jesus than his rising from the dead. These Apostles saw his miracles, his risen body and his ascension to heaven. More importantly, they heard what he said.

[William Yanda]

There are two schools of thought on that. The Pharisees and Romans conspire to circulate the rumor that his body was stolen. On the other hand, believers through the ages agree that He "rose again on the third day'.
Likewise there are two groups of people at the final judgement. Coincidence? I think not.

[Scott.M]

No, but then again, Christ is not God

[ioon44]

Jesus Christ son of the living God, fully man and fully God.

No one comes to God the Father but through Him.

[Scott.M]

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me"


Christ IS the path to hell.

[ioon44]

Not accepting Jesus Christ is the path to hell.

[1hole]

Many Jews who were witnesses to Jesus' physical return lost everything they owned, including family and friends, and quite a few were murdered because they would not renounce what they had seen.

Think about that; surely you know people won't willingly be stoned to death or be humiliated outcasts and impoverished just to start a brief conflict within their local social structure. And that's all they could have thought about it in the event, none of them could possibly have guessed what lay down the next 2,000 years.

Jesus was and still is as much God as the Father and Holy Spirit.

[dtknowles]

Many Jews who were witnesses to Jesus' physical return lost everything they owned, including family and friends, and quite a few were murdered because they would not renounce what they had seen........

Where is this recorded?

[GhostHawk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN77HjfAc8k&pbjreload=101

[1hole]

Ghost, that's magnificent!

A short story: My dear wife has been playing Christian music since she had to stand and reach up to the piano keyboard. She's now 78 and is still at it. About forty years ago she was also the church music director and she directed an Easter Cantata with our small choir. The lead voice was a strong country low tenor (now dead) who did a professional rendition of Christ Arose to her playing. Since then it has never failed to make the short hairs of my neck stand up and try to shout every time I hear it! Thank you.

[.429&H110]

Did Jesus Christ rise from the dead?
I believe He did.
For me, my proof is, I am alive.

A movie went around on Starz
"Risen"
Tells Matthew 28
From the Roman's POV.
Centurion has a problem
the body is missing
his task is to find it.
Centurion finds the Risen Christ
whom he had crucified.
I liked the part where
the centurion's god was Mars
until he met Jesus
at John 20:27
and John 21:6
Filmed on Malta
a walled city of that era.
Accurate, not preachy.

Motion to adjourn?
Seconded.

[1hole]

Motion to adjourn?
Seconded.

Motion to adjourn has been made and seconded.

By majority consent, the motion has passed and we are adjourned.

[flyingmonkey35]

Really.

I can not prove he did or didnt.

But he was also not he only one to be brought back from the dead.

Nor was he the only one to ever be burried / entomed while still alive.

Im going to go with the theory that he was brought back from near death by advanced alien tecnologly.

And then went on space ship ride visited differnt parts of the world and went back home.

Of course i could be wrong.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[.429&H110]

No, you can't prove
It's a belief thing.
Your choice.
Believe or not.

[1hole]

Really.

I can not prove he did or didnt.

But he was also not he only one to be brought back from the dead.

Nor was he the only one to ever be burried / entomed while still alive.

Im going to go with the theory that he was brought back from near death by advanced alien tecnologly.

And then went on space ship ride visited differnt parts of the world and went back home.

Of course i could be wrong.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

All that would be funny if everyone knew it to be humorous nonsense. But, sadly .......

[Chemoman]

every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that jesus christ is Lord. end of story no need to say more.