Best alloy for deer?

[stubert]

I am loading for 44 mag. both Rugers, one a SBH 7.5" and the other is a SRH 7.5". The SBH wears a red dot and the SRH wears a Luepold m-8. I have pure lead, wheel weight lead, and Lyman #2. The molds I have are 245 gr. Lyman SWC non gas checked, and the Lee 430-310 gas checked. I use 296 powder. what might be the best choice for whitetail deer? Last year I hit a deer broadside with the 300 gr. Sierra jsp, found the deer two days later and was NOT impressed with the wound channel. It was a good heart/lung shot but the deer took off and never looked back. I don't want a repeat. Any one that has any experiance with either of these two, I would welcome your expertise.

[jhalcott]

I shot 2 deer with in 5 minutes one year. The first dropped right where he was hit. The other stubborn SOB ran over a hundred yards. Both hits were thru the lungs with the same bullet and load. WHY did one run and not both?? Any way I use air cooled wheel weight or Lyman # 2 for hunting, I go with what ever is the most accurate in THAT gun. I see no real need to pound my hands with a bullet heavier than about 260 grains, 240 is just as good! I have used a lot of 2400 in my loads. Recently I got a can of Blue Dot and am trying it under some 245 grain rnpb bullets. Sub 2" 5 shot groups at 25 yards with 13 1/2 grains right now.

[Bret4207]

Isn't the 300 gr bullet sort of a heavy game bullet? I thought it was a hog/elk design. I'd either go to a tried and true 240 gr SP/HP jacketed or a 240-250 gr FN/SWC cast design in straight WW. At 900-1300 fps it should do all you can expect from a handgun.

After re-reading your post I'd use the 245 gr Lyman and WW loaded to 11-1200 fps or so.

[S.R.Custom]

Isn't the 300 gr bullet sort of a heavy game bullet? I thought it was a hog/elk design...

Indeed. The Sierra 300 grain "soft point" bullet is as hard as a rock. It's got a heavy jacket over a 6% antimony core (!!!) and is intended to be a through-and-through pig bullet.

On the other end of the scale is their 240grain JHC, which I've found to be too soft. I can't even seat it without damaging the nose...

Experience has shown me the Hornady 240 XTP to be the best all-around game bullet for the .44M when inflicted on deer-- good expansion and excellent accuracy. The hotter the load the better it performs-- it and 25.5 grs of 296 works better on game than any cast bullet I've come up with. Can't speak to how hard their 300 grain XTP is, tho, as I haven't shot anything with it. Yet.

[Snapping Twig]

I use Lyman 429244 with straight WW over 22g W296 with a strong crimp.

Game I've shot with it was pole axed. Placement is probably most important and your 300g loads are more than adequate.

[NHlever]

I'm using the same bullet, and alloy as Snapping Twig, but load it over 23.0 of H110 wich is about a max load. It shoots very well in both my 5 1/2" SBH, and my Winchester carbine.

[Bret4207]

Well, there's your answer then. You used the wrong bullet. Been done before. Try that 429421.

[JDL]

431244 worked fine out of Marlin's 1894 carbine @ 1538 fps for my Grandson. Described under the Hunting Section.
JDL

[Blammer]

Per my experience with the 44 mag this year, I'd opt with 250gr boolit at about 1350 fps and just air cooled wheel wts.


:)

I can post a link to my thread if you want to see the results! :)

In short, at 12 yds I shot diagonally through a deer, MASSIVE wound channel all the way through.

[mikenbarb]

Cast up some good ol Lyman #2 alloy and dont look back.:-D Another trick I use is to hollow point my handgun hunting boolits with either a drill bit centered or a BB or ball bearing in the cavity nose depending on the nose size and after it cools you remove the BB and it leaves a perfect hollow point. Makes a hell of a hole coming out. All my handgun hunting bullets and boolits are hollow points because I have found after killing many deer and black bear with my pistols that solid's dont work as well as big hollow points for closer ranges.

[Lloyd Smale]

about any alloy will kill a deer but i to probably would prefer #2

[44man]

That Sierra is a tough bullet for sure. I have zero problems with the Lee 310, the 320 LBT WLN or WFN boolits from the .44. Huge amounts of blood on the ground and I see the deer fall. As long as your boolit has a good meplat, about any work fine.
If you have been following my other thread, I have been finding that a hard boolit even with a large meplat starts to fail on narrow, soft deer when the velocity gets too high. They just zip through too fast and need some expansion. This is happening with my 45-70 BFR.
However the .44 works fine with hard boolits as long as the nose has a large flat. With the heavy boolits you can get away with some expansion without losing penetration. So you can make the .44 boolits a little softer too. Just don't go for anything light and fast expanding because they won't get through a deer.
I have too many 240 gr jacketed bullets recovered from deer that left hardly any blood on the ground.
The .44 has a wide range where it works as long as you have a good meplat. They can be from 245 to 320 gr, can be hard or a little softer. But you can go either way too far with a tough, pointy bullet or a light quick expanding one just like any other caliber.

[Gohon]

I shot 2 deer with in 5 minutes one year. The first dropped right where he was hit. The other stubborn SOB ran over a hundred yards. Both hits were thru the lungs with the same bullet and load. WHY did one run and not both??

I'm going to have to look for the magazine so I can be accurate and give a reference but the article was about a culling activity done somewhere by a couple of guys and they experience the same situation as you described. Dozens of animals were shot using the same gun and load and all heart shots. Some dropped on the spot and others ran considerable ways before expiring. A autopsy was performed on all animals and the amazing discovery was the animals that dropped immediately had brain tissue that was scrambled and look like mush as if their brain had exploded where as those that ran had normal looking brains. Conclusion was, as the heart pumps, the discharge side of the heart to the brain is momentarily pressurized until the inlet side of the heart opens to relieve pressure. Of course this all takes place in a micro second but if the heart is interrupted just at that period before the inlet side of the heart opens completely the heart forces a double shot of blood into the brain and literally over pressurizes the brain. Result is a instant interruption of the brain that drops the animal on the spot. This might be one of those believe it or not but makes sense to me......

[Larry Gibson]

stubert

I prefer #2 all for PB bullets driven to 1300-1400 fps in the .44 also. I follow Bret4207 in voting for the 429421 cast of #2 and driven to 1350 fps. I've killed numerous deer with just that load without problem. For the Lee 310 gr GC'd bullet since it is GC'd I'd go with a softer alloy like 50/50 WW/lead and air cool them. Driven hard with 296 you will get expansion also. You might look at mikenbarb's trick with ball bearings to create a hollow point in the Lee bullet. I've done it with BBs in several moulds and with the correct size bearing it would work nicely in the Lee mould.

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

if you want expansion pick up one of the lyman devestator hp molds. that bullet flat shoots in my guns and ive killed animals as big as a 1000 lb buffalo with it.

[Bullshop]

This may help some folks decide and applies to non-hollow pointed boolits.
Over the years I have come up with a basic rule for expansion. It may not be exact but works out perty close. It is that to get expansion the impact velocity must not be less that the bhn x 100. Remember this is impact velocity not muzzle velocity. Velocity over the minimum will give more expansion.
So if you want a boolit to expand and it is cast of ACWW at bhn-12 and you have a muzzle velocity of say 1500 fps then roughly depending on cal, boolit nose shape and whatnot but roughly you can expect expansion out to about 100 yards.
Now if your shooting a QWW at bhn-24 you will have to have a muzzle velocity of 2600 to 2700 to make the minimum at 100 yards. Most are gona have trouble with getting to that. Now if you add some pure lead to them WW and air cool for a bhn- 10 or so it gets much easier to get expansion with the type of loads most folks shoot with thier boolits. If you use a gas check even with a bhn of 9 or 10 they can still be pushed quite nicely to 1800 fps or so muzzle velocity with good accuracy.
So I cant say there is a right alloy for hunting that is right for all conditions. What I can say is that there is a different right alloy for the different conditions each hunter will set up. Maybe this info will help some to figure out what will be best for them under thier conditions.
BIC/BS

[FN in MT]

I've shot a mess of MT whitetails as well as a few mature elk with a 6 1/2" .44 mag. The Keith #429421 cast from WW's or softer. Over 20.0 grs of new 2400 for a crono'd 1300 fps. Wound channel's are impressive and on whitetails real "BANG...flop" results. On elk...both were through heart lung and they simply walked off a few yards, stood there then fell over. Did also shoot one with a FA in .45 Colt with heavy Keith slugs at +P 1100 fps velocity. Worked as well as the forty four.

Can't tell if any of my Keith slugs expand as I've always gotten through and through penetration.

I've shot a lot of deer, all the larger northern sub species not the little southern guys. And I have to say after dozens and dozens of them I've NEVER found ANY deer to be difficult to kill...IF hit in the heart/lung area. I think that the average deer hunter grossly OVER THINKS whats needed.

FN in MT

[Larry Gibson]

FN in MT

eeh gads! How can that be? Ever since Ross Seifried (SP?) killed a water buffalo with his custom Vaquero .45 with 300 +/- gr bullets down Australia way and wrote about it in G&A we all just know that it takes that huge heavy bullets to kill deer. All of a sudden with that article everything Keith designed was obsolete and no longer could kill deer let alone elk. All of a sudden penetration for a 2000 bound water buffalo was needed for a 200 lb deer. All of a sudden the deer's hide got as thick as the water buffalo's. My good greif man, but don't you know what a backwards step you are asking us to take....go back to Keith bullets because they work? Just unheard of these days! Just ask the enlightened, they will tell you all about it.

Must be why I still have Keith type SWC moulds for my .357, .41 and .44s.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Deer ARE easy to kill unless you just poke a hole. I helped a fellow drag a tiny PA deer to his car. He shot it with a 180 gr 30-06 bullet. He tracked it half a day in the snow and his sixth shot finally kept it down. I could cover all six shots in the chest with my hand. Not one of the silvertips expanded. That deer would be hard pressed to weigh 80#.
Another guy I knew hit a small doe 11 times with 12 ga shotgun slugs before she gave it up. Miles of tracking. Total burger on the hoof!
You had better believe they can hang on to life.
Yes, the Keith works and the only reason I use other boolits is because they are more accurate in my guns.

[eka]

OK, I'm hooked. I've never heard tell of the BB trick. That sounds so simple, I'm gonna have to give it a try. Now, do you just drop the BBs into the cavity of the mould and fill her up as usual. Then drop, let cool, and pick them out. Is that all there is to it?

Keith

[Irascible]

I did some testing before my Caribou hunt and settled on 5 lbs WW / 4 1/2 lbs pure / 1 bar of 50/50 solder. Shot a 35 cal, 250gr, gas check bullet at 2000 fps, out of a 24" brl with no leading. Through a water jug into cardboard showed expansion at 50Yds as did firing into wet phone books (even more expansion). BNH was about 11 after 10 days. Bullet into the wet phone books showed the alloy to be mallable without too many pieces broken off.

[KCSO]

I like my deer alloyed 100 % meat but 99% meat and 1% gravy works too.

For hunting I like shoooting deer with w/w or a little softer if possible. In under 1600 fps guns pure lead alloyed to 1-30 or less is fine and in 2000+ I likw W/W with up to 1/4 lino if necessary.

[Old Ironsights]

Not a .44, but: C358180RF, GC, ACWW 1800 fps, small deer (65lbs skinned/dressed) at about 62 paces.

1/2" dia through & through. No bone frag. Trotted about 20yds spraying out about a foot to each side after being spun around.

(State park Depredation "Brown & Down" hunt...)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/DSP001.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5721.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5722.jpg

I can't imagine that the ACWW expanded at all, but it still left a 1/2" hole.

[nathan99]

OK, I'm hooked. I've never heard tell of the BB trick. That sounds so simple, I'm gonna have to give it a try. Now, do you just drop the BBs into the cavity of the mould and fill her up as usual. Then drop, let cool, and pick them out. Is that all there is to it?

Keith

It sounds very implausible.

Steel BBs or other ballbearings are much less dense than lead, so would just float up inside the mould. Just the same as wheelweight clips float on top of the melt.

I've never heard of this trick before, and frankly I don't believe it.

Perhaps mikenbarb would care to give more explanation of his method ?

[jhalcott]

You need a mold with a nose small enough to center the BB and a fast pour with alloy JUST hot enough to solidify as soon as it hits the bottom of the mold. The BB WILL float on the alloy if every thing is NOT correct. I' ve tried this with BB;s and stauinless ball bearings. It can be quite frustrating to get it all together. I found that a HOT mold is best.

[waksupi]

I remember Kevin Fire, back on the old Shooters board, used BB's in the nose of his boolits, in the .338 Win Mag. I seem to recall they killed North Dakota whitetails just fine!

[Larry Gibson]

I use BBs in HP moulds when I don't want the HP. They do need to fit in the nose to center. I never had a BB even attempt to "float to the top" and I've cast them about every which way you can. Do you know how quickly the molten lead solidifies? I even leave the BBs on top of the Lyman furnace so they are hot going into the mould (use tweezers to put them it BTW) as hot BBs keep the nose from having wrinkles. With a soft alloy they will get driven back into it on impact and assist expasion.

Larry Gibson