What if we tried to make an inexpensive jacketing rig?

[guy_with_boolits]

I know that one place makes jacketing rigs but it seems to be about $1000+

I'm a machinist and I've got to think I could make something that creates an FMJ.

Does anyone know what is actually happening to make one? I'm guessing a cavity has a partially drawn blank installed (like a 22 rimfire case), which is then forced to size by a mandrel. Then the lead wire is dropped in and crushed to fill out the void?

[guy_with_boolits]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-vQpwgiHbA

its a shame LEE Hasn't come out with an inexpensive swaging system

[guy_with_boolits]

I think the blackman system might be roughly half the price of the corbin system?
https://bulletswagingsupply.com/BULLET%20SWAGING%20SUPPLY%208.5x11.pdf

[Vdubman27]

Yea I think you about have it down but to make the jack it take several draws though a couple of dies check out the Corbin website he has them but they are not cheap at all even has a set to make copper pennies into 30 cal jackets

[guy_with_boolits]

I guess the dream would be a $300 die set and mold that lets you cast the blanks and then do all the swaging operations on a progressive press

Seems like that is something that could exist. LEE's dies would seem to have the same high quality machining and materials and are much less expensive (4 die set for $75?) . Maybe LEE could actually make the die set since they offer custom dies with a tooling charge?

[mdi]

A cheap alternative is making jacketed bullets out of spent brass. I see posts (on other forums not cast boolits forum), using 22 rimfire brass, 9mm brass and 40 S&W brass. There may be others but the process doesn't interest me enough to do any more research. The closest I came was an old Speer (?) half jacket kit, but that was at least 30 years ago and I no longer have it or remember much about the process...

Googled "home made jacketed bullets". And at the bottom of the page id a link to making jacketed bullets out of copper tubing; https://www.google.com/search?q=home+made+jacketed+bullets&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS874US874&oq=home+made+jacketed+bullets&aqs=chrome..69i57.8900j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Idz]

There is a whole swaging forum on this site with lots of info and plans. For a simple press look up Vickery's "Advanced Gunsmithing" book. Biggest problem is stresses are too high for normal reloading presses to handle.

[Huvius]

You could spend a year reading the swaging forum right here on Castboolits!

If you're talking starting from scratch, with a copper blank (cylinder) you will need to design and fabricate a massively strong press.
Machining and hardening the dies is another hurdle and it's a big one.

Starting with spent brass cases or pre-formed jackets puts the average swager way ahead and with the proper dies and press can make boolits that are every bit as good or better than factory.

What, exactly, are you wanting to do?

[guy_with_boolits]

You could spend a year reading the swaging forum right here on Castboolits!

If you're talking starting from scratch, with a copper blank (cylinder) you will need to design and fabricate a massively strong press.
Machining and hardening the dies is another hurdle and it's a big one.

Starting with spent brass cases or pre-formed jackets puts the average swager way ahead and with the proper dies and press can make boolits that are every bit as good or better than factory.

What, exactly, are you wanting to do?

I dont think we'd need to start with a solid cylinder. Copper tubing or 22LR cartridges are fine.

Basically something that has the same pricing as LEE dies but is cleverly designed to work on a progressive press to take as input copper tubing/22LR cases and unsized cast lead blanks both in feeders, and pump out jacketed boolits (so would size the cast blanks and then do the multi step process on the cases to get them ready for the blanks)

Seems to me all these steps are no different in complexity or magnitude than the normal reloading steps.

This is part 1 of a multi part video that shows all the steps using the blackmon system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-vQpwgiHbA

[guy_with_boolits]

There is a whole swaging forum on this site with lots of info and plans. For a simple press look up Vickery's "Advanced Gunsmithing" book. Biggest problem is stresses are too high for normal reloading presses to handle.

doesnt have to start with a solid blank, seems like the press that can handle 22LR cases isnt particularly stout, or at least no more than a typical reloading press.

https://i.postimg.cc/3JSM571g/Untitled.png

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I've been thinking a lot about how to make cheaper jacketed boolits. Swaging is only cost effective if you use found fired cases. I priced out several manufactures of jackets and you're looking at about $0.16 per 30 cal jacket. At that price I can buy an already made Hornady bullet in bulk.

My idea was to make a gas check that was as long as the bullet up to the ogive. This could be done with thin copper or aluminum. There are many gas check makers out there but to make one this long it may take a few steps. After that you'd need a mould with a really long shank then find a way to crimp it on well enough so the jacket wouldn't spin independently of the core. Sure you could cook it on but that takes more time and energy. I'm sure there could be a creative way to put a series of crimps like a Lee factory crimp die but for the boolit itself. Just an idea.

[country gent]

Worked in a can plant that had several 2 piece can lines a 211 can (16 oz)starting station blanked and formed the initial cup which was about 4" in dia and 1 1/2"tall, It then drew this down to about 3" dia and 2 1/2" tall final draw brought it to size and a burnish station brought to size . The open end was then trimmed square and flared for the end. THese cans stayed with in a .001 thickness thru forming. the presses doing this were bigger machines and ran around 1000 cans a minute.

to make good accurate jackets may take several steps from the "coin" to maintain accurate wall thickness. I dont know of any progressives that have the power or strength to do 3-5 operations at a time. Sierra and J-4 jackets are extremely consistent and matching that may be hard with hand equipment.

I have considered a set of swage dies to form PP bullets for bpcr rifles. these would be pure lead or 20-1 from cast cores. These would need lube with the PP and could be formed in maybe 2 passes 1 to rough size and bleed to weight, second final form and cup base. Maybe set ejector up so it forms a small hollow point. I believe this could be done in a rock chucker or similar press. Bleeding a small amount off will maintain a very good weight and lower pressures a little.

[guy_with_boolits]

I've been thinking a lot about how to make cheaper jacketed boolits. Swaging is only cost effective if you use found fired cases. I priced out several manufactures of jackets and you're looking at about $0.16 per 30 cal jacket. At that price I can buy an already made Hornady bullet in bulk.

My idea was to make a gas check that was as long as the bullet up to the ogive. This could be done with thin copper or aluminum. There are many gas check makers out there but to make one this long it may take a few steps. After that you'd need a mould with a really long shank then find a way to crimp it on well enough so the jacket wouldn't spin independently of the core. Sure you could cook it on but that takes more time and energy. I'm sure there could be a creative way to put a series of crimps like a Lee factory crimp die but for the boolit itself. Just an idea.


Yeah something like this. This is all very old technology and techniques, just seems like none of the major mfg's have decided to make it part of their reloading systems. If LEE did some kind of jacketing setup it would be inexpensive and work great. Its a shame they havent

[RU shooter]

Problem with Lee doing it is their CQ a lot of times they can't get their sizers within .001 of target dia..

[36Power]

I would think for this kind of thing you might have better luck using a turret press...although I imagine the swagging would put an awful lot of stress on the indexing lugs.

[fredj338]

Yeah head to the swaging section. I have a rig for making jacketed 223 out of 22lr brass. Some guys are making 40+ out of 9mm brass. I just find casting & coating easier & faster for pistol.

[36Power]

An inexpensive jacketing rig:

265226

[guy_with_boolits]

An inexpensive jacketing rig:

265226

what is that??
plater?

[Traffer]

There are quite a few guys who have made their own dies for converting 22lr cases into .223 jackets. I made a set for the heck of it. And I am a noob machinist at best with only a cheap 7x10 Chinese minilathe. I made them out of 7/8 14 bolts. There is a place selling good bolts on eBay for the process. They are "Bowmalloy" bolts with 12 marks on the head, indicating that they are equivalent to what would be a grade 14 bolt. Kind of hard to machine but doable. I don't know how long mine will hold up but I don't even have a 223 so I won't be using them much. Just did it as an experiment.
As a machinist you CAN make the drawing dies and do the whole nine yards of making your own dies. It will be a lot of experimentation but once you get it down you will be able to make any jacketed bullet you want.
Here is the BEST set of videos on it that I have found on the internet. I watch a lot of videos. If you want a list of good machinist videos, PM me. There are some TRULY amazing craftsmen out there making videos. Anyway...this guy goes by the name "NYC CNC". He has produced many many videos related to machining. Making these drawing dies is one of his projects:

https://youtu.be/o0JVm76Y37I

[guy_with_boolits]

There are quite a few guys who have made their own dies for converting 22lr cases into .223 jackets. I made a set for the heck of it. And I am a noob machinist at best with only a cheap 7x10 Chinese minilathe. I made them out of 7/8 14 bolts. There is a place selling good bolts on eBay for the process. They are "Bowmalloy" bolts with 12 marks on the head, indicating that they are equivalent to what would be a grade 14 bolt. Kind of hard to machine but doable. I don't know how long mine will hold up but I don't even have a 223 so I won't be using them much. Just did it as an experiment.
As a machinist you CAN make the drawing dies and do the whole nine yards of making your own dies. It will be a lot of experimentation but once you get it down you will be able to make any jacketed bullet you want.
Here is the BEST set of videos on it that I have found on the internet. I watch a lot of videos. If you want a list of good machinist videos, PM me. There are some TRULY amazing craftsmen out there making videos. Anyway...this guy goes by the name "NYC CNC". He has produced many many videos related to machining. Making these drawing dies is one of his projects:

https://youtu.be/o0JVm76Y37I

wow that is cool! It takes more skill to machine things properly on lesser machines so my hat is off to you

heres an off-topic video question for you: ever see anyone make a bullet mold on a CNC milll?

[36Power]

what is that??
plater?

Yeah, copper...was just yanking your chain with the 'jacket' bit :)

[Traffer]

wow that is cool! It takes more skill to machine things properly on lesser machines so my hat is off to you

heres an off-topic video question for you: ever see anyone make a bullet mold on a CNC milll?

I probably have but don't recall anything specific...memory is going on me....There are lots of ways of making bullet molds. The trick is precision. The more precise you can be the better the mold will be. CNC would be probably the best. But it can be done on a lathe or even a drill press. Another BIG factor is the material used. Most people use aluminum. I think you would be better off using steel. Bronze or cast iron would be great but Bronze is expensive and cast iron (as far as I know) is pretty hard to get nowadays.

[guy_with_boolits]

Yeah, copper...was just yanking your chain with the 'jacket' bit :)

do you have a link with more info about that? looks like fun

[dverna]

.224 SP 55 gr Hornady jacketed bullets are $420/6000 delivered when they go on sale. That works out to $7/100. Maybe you can make 100 bullets an hour but they will not be "free", so your time is worth less than $5/hr.

A progressive press will not be able to produce even .224 jacketed bullets. You will be looking at single stage and multiple operations.

Of course, I am not considering the "fun" or "accomplishment" factor in such an endeavor....just the costs and effort needed.

But looking at the numbers, there is almost no economic incentive for someone like Lee to get into the business. The market is too small. Even if I could make bullets for $.03 each, I would not spend the time to do it if I can buy them for $.07.

[country gent]

For years a heavy machine similar to a drill press with a fixed spindle was used with a double acting or self centering vise. the cutter was a cherry in the shape of the desired bullet. The vise was closed slowly opened chips blew out and closed several times. the cherry set the size and form. In the mill it can be done this way or the blocks set to a known opening and half the cherry each way on the dials. the cherry and dials set the size roundness. In the cnc machines ti van be done several ways , An undersized cherry and a circle pocket program cuts the cavities and sets the size. or the bullets form can be programmed in and a small boring bar used to cut the cavity.

Brass is more expensive to buy but cuts easy and clean. Tooling last longer so this offsets material costs some. Aluminum is cheaper and cuts okay ( gaulding and finish can be problems) but is more abrasive lowering tool life some. Cast Iron is in line cost wise but usually comes in much larger sizes than needed. It machines a little harder and slower. Do to the carbon content it is harder on tooling. other materials may work but arnt used do to machining and costs. Granite might make a nice mould but would be hard to machine and get threads into.

[Scrounge]

There is a whole swaging forum on this site with lots of info and plans. For a simple press look up Vickery's "Advanced Gunsmithing" book. Biggest problem is stresses are too high for normal reloading presses to handle.

My paperback copy arrived today. THIS IS YOUR FAULT! ;) $12.64 & tax from Amazon. Looking through it, I've found the source for a bunch of plans I'd collected off the internet for years! Thanks!

[fcvan]

I thought about swaging for a little bit, read extensively in the swaging section here. Ultimately, I decided it was too rich for my blood. I dabbled with copper electroplating and actually got good results using of all things, a solar power cell. I also had a small adjustable power supply but the doner copper for the plating was a pain and not cheap. I make my own gas checks and they work well. I even have plain base gas check dies to place soda can aluminum checks on boolits not designed for gas checks.

Then I moved on to ESPC and ASBBPC (spray powder coating and tumble powder coating) and haven't looked back. .308/30-06 running at 2250-2450 fps with gas checks, .223/5.56 at 2250-2450 fps without gas checks. Higher velocity is not needed to disrupt a light/heavy jacket. Longer distances would require a heavier boolit design but I keep my shots between 100-200 yards. I figure if I can hit a soda can off-hand at those ranges I can hit the vital organs. Still, I sometimes think I should continue pursuit of swaging jacketed bullets for more target shooting at longer distances.

BruceB (RIP) had a great has a great and lengthy dissertation here at CB on shooting out to 600 yards with his M1A and cast. Many folks have paper patched cast through modern cartridges (think 60-06) with great results. I want to try them all and even though retired, I just can't find the time. Twin grandsons in May, and 4 other grand kids before them. Priorities, heck my 4 y/o grand daughter has just started guitar lessons with 'Papa Frank' and my wife along with her. Priorities :)